Saved by faith alone?

TrustandObey · 2025-04-30T00:20:19-0400

Here is the verse:
Romans 14:23
But he who is uncertain [about eating a particular thing] is condemned if he eats, because he is not acting from faith. Whatever is not from faith is sin [whatever is done with doubt is sinful].

Can you not see how off the context is here?

This verse has nothing to do with Mark 16:16.

Magenta · 2025-04-30T00:32:19-0400

TrustandObey said:

LOL. Sure. Not having faith does not apply to anything but eating to you. Good luck with that.

UnoiAmarah · 2025-04-30T07:14:33-0400

mailmandan said:

First is who were the two malefactors that were crucified along with Jesus, if who they were doesn't matter, then neither would my interpretation that they were the two witnesses who testified against him...

59 Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death;
60 But found none: yea, though many false witnesses came, yet found they none. At the last came two false witnesses,
Matt 26:59-60

So if Jesus didn't go to the heart of the earth, as suggested by scripture

39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Matt 12:39-40

Then either the heart of the earth is paradise, or the malefactor was in paradise while hanging out with Jesus.

28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
John 8:28

Or Jesus was crucified according to the prophecy of the high priest that he should die for the nation, and to gather the people into one, which basically says nothing about his being resurrected.

9 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
53 Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.
John 11:49-53

John146 · 2025-04-30T07:29:41-0400

UnoiAmarah said:

Paradise was in the heart of the earth at that time, aka Abraham’s bosom. Paradise was translated to the third heaven upon the Lord’s resurrection as he set the captives free.

mailmandan · 2025-04-30T07:36:08-0400

UnoiAmarah said:

First is who were the two malefactors that were crucified along with Jesus, if who they were doesn't matter, then neither would my interpretation that they were the two witnesses who testified against him...

59 Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death;
60 But found none: yea, though many false witnesses came, yet found they none. At the last came two false witnesses,
Matt 26:59-60

So if Jesus didn't go to the heart of the earth, as suggested by scripture

39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Matt 12:39-40

Then either the heart of the earth is paradise, or the malefactor was in paradise while hanging out with Jesus.

28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
John 8:28

Or Jesus was crucified according to the prophecy of the high priest that he should die for the nation, and to gather the people into one, which basically says nothing about his being resurrected.

9 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
53 Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.
John 11:49-53

It sounds to me like you are making this out to be more complicated than it really is. So, what do you believe the heart of the earth is? Have you read about Abraham's bosom in scripture? (Luke 16:19-31) Paradise is obviously a location, and Jesus promised the thief on the cross they would be together there that day.

TrustandObey · 2025-04-30T08:18:58-0400

Magenta said:

It is rather logical to realize that we can and should judge actions, we do it daily.

Judging motives is both difficult and unwise. (Jeremiah 17:9-10)

It is human nature to judge ourselves by our intentions, others by their actions. But this is wrong.

If you cannot see the distinction then it is you and those who support your comment that are "confused".

GWH · 2025-04-30T08:32:49-0400

Cameron143 said:

Harmonizing Scripture is agreeing with all truth it teaches rather than engaging in proof-texting or double-thinking.
I encourage everyone to employ this better way/hermeneutic exemplified by Jesus in TOJ #4:

TOJ #4: Harmonize all truth. [MT 4:7a] Jesus implied this important logical principle to apply when seeking the correct understanding of GW by saying, “It is also written”. If the Spirit of God inspired the biblical writers (2PT 1:20-21) and created the world (GN 1:1-3), then the best interpretation of a TOJ should harmonize the totality of revealed and scientific knowledge.

In his second temptation the devil quoted Scripture (PS 91:11-12) as though he were heeding the TOJ about LGW, but he attempted to deceive Jesus with a false interpretation so He would perform a miracle. Although Jesus did perform miracles, it was only as necessary in order to establish His church so that Christians could preach salvation via saving Faith in the Gospel/kerygma. (See TOJ #77 & #78.)

TOJ #77: Do not expect God to prove Himself by means of miracles. [MT 12:39//MK 8:12//LK 11:29-32] Jesus characterized sign-seekers as wicked and adulterous {MT 16:2-4}. The reason is because evil people want proof. However, proof would be tantamount to being forced to follow God’s will from fear of damnation, which would not be free and genuine cooperation. Of course, only those who saw the miracle would be persuaded, and then only until the memory faded, so Jesus would have to work miracles for everyone now and then from then on if that way (rather than teaching the gospel/GW) were to be His “SOP” or normative method of conversion. (See TOJ #4.) Thus, God’s typical mode of operation is not performing miracles {MT 24:24}. (TOJ #78) This is the point of Abraham’s discussion with Lazarus {LK 16:29-31}.

God wants souls to live by Faith (2CR 5:7) and to freely reflect His love (1JN 4:10-11), although He did perform deniable miracles in order to enable Moses to free the Israelites from Egypt (EX 7:3-5) and in order to establish the New Covenant (JN 2:11, 10:38, 11:4, 14:11, 20:30-31). These miracles include prophesying {JN 13:19, 14:29, 16:4}. We need to ponder this doctrine for several reasons: first, because we may tend to assume the improbability of a spiritual dimension; second, we products of modern science demand demonstrable evidence that something is true (cf. JN 4:48); third, we may wonder why God does not zap evildoers and disprove false preachers. [We can hope to learn the answers to such questions when we arrive in Heaven; cf. TOJ #92 :]

TOJ #92: God’s plan of salvation may not always seem logical. [MT 16:23-25//MK 8:35//LK 9:24] Paul discussed this point (in 1CR1:18-25). God’s thoughts may not be perfectly comprehensible by fallible folks now (IS 55:8-9, 1CR 2:14), but they are perfectly rational and will become clear in heaven (1CR 13:9-12). {MT 10:39, LK 14:8-11, JN 12:25}

Cameron143 · 2025-04-30T09:40:47-0400

GWH said:

Harmonizing Scripture is agreeing with all truth it teaches rather than engaging in proof-texting or double-thinking.
I encourage everyone to employ this better way/hermeneutic exemplified by Jesus in TOJ #4:

TOJ #4: Harmonize all truth. [MT 4:7a] Jesus implied this important logical principle to apply when seeking the correct understanding of GW by saying, “It is also written”. If the Spirit of God inspired the biblical writers (2PT 1:20-21) and created the world (GN 1:1-3), then the best interpretation of a TOJ should harmonize the totality of revealed and scientific knowledge.

In his second temptation the devil quoted Scripture (PS 91:11-12) as though he were heeding the TOJ about LGW, but he attempted to deceive Jesus with a false interpretation so He would perform a miracle. Although Jesus did perform miracles, it was only as necessary in order to establish His church so that Christians could preach salvation via saving Faith in the Gospel/kerygma. (See TOJ #77 & #78.)

TOJ #77: Do not expect God to prove Himself by means of miracles. [MT 12:39//MK 8:12//LK 11:29-32] Jesus characterized sign-seekers as wicked and adulterous {MT 16:2-4}. The reason is because evil people want proof. However, proof would be tantamount to being forced to follow God’s will from fear of damnation, which would not be free and genuine cooperation. Of course, only those who saw the miracle would be persuaded, and then only until the memory faded, so Jesus would have to work miracles for everyone now and then from then on if that way (rather than teaching the gospel/GW) were to be His “SOP” or normative method of conversion. (See TOJ #4.) Thus, God’s typical mode of operation is not performing miracles {MT 24:24}. (TOJ #78) This is the point of Abraham’s discussion with Lazarus {LK 16:29-31}.

God wants souls to live by Faith (2CR 5:7) and to freely reflect His love (1JN 4:10-11), although He did perform deniable miracles in order to enable Moses to free the Israelites from Egypt (EX 7:3-5) and in order to establish the New Covenant (JN 2:11, 10:38, 11:4, 14:11, 20:30-31). These miracles include prophesying {JN 13:19, 14:29, 16:4}. We need to ponder this doctrine for several reasons: first, because we may tend to assume the improbability of a spiritual dimension; second, we products of modern science demand demonstrable evidence that something is true (cf. JN 4:48); third, we may wonder why God does not zap evildoers and disprove false preachers. [We can hope to learn the answers to such questions when we arrive in Heaven; cf. TOJ #92 :]

TOJ #92: God’s plan of salvation may not always seem logical. [MT 16:23-25//MK 8:35//LK 9:24] Paul discussed this point (in 1CR1:18-25). God’s thoughts may not be perfectly comprehensible by fallible folks now (IS 55:8-9, 1CR 2:14), but they are perfectly rational and will become clear in heaven (1CR 13:9-12). {MT 10:39, LK 14:8-11, JN 12:25}

I agree that scripture should be harmonized. I simply disagree with the way you do it. You reconcile verses incorrectly, and expect people to accept your error.

Magenta · 2025-04-30T10:44:12-0400

TrustandObey said:

I agree with Scripture. You do not. This is good to know.

Lamar · 2025-04-30T10:52:42-0400

HealthAndHappiness said:

HealthandHappiness, what are you saying.

It seems as if you are implying that the 2nd clause of Mark 16:16 is in de facto negating the 1st clause.

Is this what you are saying?

Yes or No?

Lamar · 2025-04-30T11:00:43-0400

Magenta said:

Beckworth is by no means contradicting himself.

Judging from a person's intentions and a person's actions is not a contradiction.

How is it that you cannot see this?

Magenta · 2025-04-30T11:05:24-0400

Lamar said:

How can you not see that on the one hand they say, nobody but God can know whether or not a person
is saved, but then turns around and says they know for a fact certain people were saved? If you cannot
see that as a contradiction, I do believe there is something terribly wrong with your ability to reason.

UnoiAmarah · 2025-04-30T12:24:28-0400

It just seems to me that being next to Jesus would be the proverbial "paradise" with all things considered

Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else. Deut 4:39

If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. Ps 139:8

John146 · 2025-04-30T13:00:49-0400

UnoiAmarah said:

It just seems to me that being next to Jesus would be the proverbial "paradise" with all things considered

Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else. Deut 4:39

If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. Ps 139:8

Allow the Bible to define the place called paradise.

Magenta · 2025-04-30T13:05:07-0400

John146 said:

Unfortunately it was your beloved KJV which erroneously interpreted a number of
different words into "hell," and that has contributed much confusion to the matter.

Beckworth · 2025-04-30T18:26:16-0400

Magenta said:

How can you not see that on the one hand they say, nobody but God can know whether or not a person
is saved, but then turns around and says they know for a fact certain people were saved? If you cannot
see that as a contradiction, I do believe there is something terribly wrong with your ability to

Magenta said:

Actually, Jesus is the one who says they are saved, I am just agreeing with HIM. He made that judgement 2000 years ago. Not me. When I know people who have obeyed what Jesus says in Mark 16:16, I can safely say they are saved because they have obeyed What Christ said and I believe Christ.

You, on the other hand do NOT believe Christ and what He says in Mark 16:16. So, when people you don’t even know fall away from Christ, you make a judgement and say they were never saved in the first place. Like Simon the sorcerer in Acts 8. He obeyed what Jesus said in Mark 16:16. Read verse 13.- “Simon himself believed also and was baptized…”. Did he do what Jesus said to do to be saved. in Mark 16:16? Yes, he did, exactly! Was he saved? Jesus says yes, but you say “no”. Jesus judges him saved, but YOU judge him as “never having been saved.”

I would love for you to agree with Jesus that Simon was saved, because then, you will have admitted that a saved person can lose their salvation; because the apostle Peter says that Simon was “poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity” verse 23 and was going to “PERISH” ( to be lost or destroyed) with his money. Verse 20. So Peter passes judgement on Peter as being lost. Peter was divinely inspired so, I can safely believe what he says; but Jesus is the Son if God and is divine, so I can certainly believe what HE says.

So, if I can believe the Son of God in Mark 16:16, abd I can believe what the Holy Spirit says in Acts 8:13, then Simon was truly saved. I am judging them just like Matthew 7:20 says, according to their “fruit” . Do you agree or disagree? I would really like to know so please answer.

Furthermore, If I can believe the apostle Peter and what the Holy Spirit guided him to write, then I can also believe that Simon lost his salvation and was told by Peter to repent and pray and ask forgiveness. Do you believe this?

So, my question to you is… How is it you can believe Peter, when he says Simon was lost, but not believe the Son of God when He says he was saved??

Every person can be judged on their “fruits.” Whether saved or unsaved.
Perhaps you are still confused??

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Saved by faith alone?

TrustandObey

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Magenta

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UnoiAmarah

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John146

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mailmandan

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GWH

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