Saved by Works

[haz]

Jesus was asked what works we should do.
He answered in John 6:29.
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

 

[Laodicea]

Matthew 19:17 KJV
(17) And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

 

[haz]

Matt 19:20,21
The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?" Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

Our works that shows our faith is to believe in Jesus/follow him.
And in believing in Jesus we are perfected (Heb 10:14).
We are complete in him, Col 2:10.

 

[Laodicea]

Matthew 19:17-19 KJV
(17) And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
(18) He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
(19) Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Jesus is here referring to the 10 commandments.

 

[haz]

Jesus is here referring to the 10 commandments.

As you insist that keeping the law is necessary for salvation, have you kept it perfectly since you received Christ?

For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

 

[Laodicea]

As you insist that keeping the law is necessary for salvation, have you kept it perfectly since you received Christ?

For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

I have never said we keep the law to be saved, read my posts you will never find it. The text I quoted:-
Romans 6:22 KJV
(22) But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.


According to this we are:-
1. Made free from sin
2. Become servants of God
3. The result of that is fruit unto holiness

If you have a problem with the law of God then you have a problem with God Himself because the law of God is a transcript of the character of God. Christ kept the law perfectly so the gospels is what it is like to keep the law of God as God intends.
Romans 7:12 KJV
(12) Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Romans 7:14 KJV
(14) For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Romans 8:6 KJV
(6) For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

 

[haz]

I have never said we keep the law to be saved, read my posts you will never find it. The text I quoted:-
Romans 6:22 KJV
(22) But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.


According to this we are:-
1. Made free from sin
2. Become servants of God
3. The result of that is fruit unto holiness

If you have a problem with the law of God then you have a problem with God Himself because the law of God is a transcript of the character of God. Christ kept the law perfectly so the gospels is what it is like to keep the law of God as God intends.
Romans 7:12 KJV
(12) Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Romans 7:14 KJV
(14) For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Romans 8:6 KJV
(6) For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

I realize you are not directly saying that we keep the law to be saved. It's your underlying message of works of the law as being evidence of salvation that I'm addressing.

Please correct me if I'm mistaken, but it seems to me that you believe that keeping the law is evidence of so called "imparted" righteousness.

So, back to my question.
Have you kept the law perfectly since you received Christ?

 

[Laodicea]

I realize you are not directly saying that we keep the law to be saved. It's your underlying message of works of the law as being evidence of salvation that I'm addressing.

Please correct me if I'm mistaken, but it seems to me that you believe that keeping the law is evidence of so called "imparted" righteousness.

So, back to my question.
Have you kept the law perfectly since you received Christ?

Do you think that someone with Christ in there life will continue to break God's law? Do you think it is OK to be a friend of the world while proclaiming to have Christ in our life?

 

[haz]

Do you think that someone with Christ in there life will continue to break God's law? Do you think it is OK to be a friend of the world while proclaiming to have Christ in our life?

Again I ask, have you kept the law perfectly since receiving Christ?
If not, then how much obedience is an acceptable enough level to be okay with God?

 

[Laodicea]

Again I ask, have you kept the law perfectly since receiving Christ?
If not, then how much obedience is an acceptable enough level to be okay with God?

Sounds like you are trying to justify a life of sin. Read my OP on righteousness. This is the link:-http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/36215-saved-works.html#post618752

 

[Bookreader]

I think it's important to distinguish too between the Law and the Commandments.

The Law includes the Commandments but also includes statues and rules (like what not to eat and wear, etc.). It also includes punishment for not doing the Commandments. Those punishments are part of the Law but not actually part of the Commandments.

We are not bound by the Law.
But we should keep the Commandments.

The sabbath is an odd one because Jesus pointedly said that the sabbath was made for man. I think what he meant is that God does not wish for man to toil all the time. Man should rest. And this is for man's benefit, not for God's.

It is interesting to note that in Matthew 19:17-19 Jesus only mentions six of the Commandments. The first four are not mentioned at all.
Anyone have an opinion on why? I ask because I don't know, not because I'm playing some silly game (as I've seen others on the forums do).

 

[haz]

Sounds like you are trying to justify a life of sin. Read my OP on righteousness. This is the link:-http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/36215-saved-works.html#post618752

I assume from your avoidance to answer now, that you have not kept the law perfectly.

Your incorrect assumption that I justify sin shows you still believe Christians are charged with sin, in spite of our being justified by God.

Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifies.

 

[Brother_Don]

It breaks my heart when i see people say they love God, and then say they don't need to honor Him. God did not give us any commandments that are too burdensome to handle, actually He has made it quite easy. Those that say they honor the Father but don't need to obey Him are liars, talking out of both sides of their mouth. We can't justify not obeying God, and those that say we can by grace will be quite red in the face when we stand before Him, and God won't be listening to excuses like but, but, but Sir, so and so told me this and that. So study the scriptures and don't just take mans word, ask God to reveal what He is saying. i pray you seek the Father so on that day of Judgement you won't have a red face in Christ Jesus name i ask.

 

[Laodicea]

I assume from your avoidance to answer now, that you have not kept the law perfectly.

Your incorrect assumption that I justify sin shows you still believe Christians are charged with sin, in spite of our being justified by God.

Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifies.

You can assume what you wish but, I do not have to answer personal questions, I answer Bible questions. This is a Bible discussion forum. Do you believe a follower of Christ should keep the commandments or do you think it is OK for a follower of Christ to sin.

 

[Laodicea]

I think it's important to distinguish too between the Law and the Commandments.

The Law includes the Commandments but also includes statues and rules (like what not to eat and wear, etc.). It also includes punishment for not doing the Commandments. Those punishments are part of the Law but not actually part of the Commandments.

We are not bound by the Law.
But we should keep the Commandments.

The sabbath is an odd one because Jesus pointedly said that the sabbath was made for man. I think what he meant is that God does not wish for man to toil all the time. Man should rest. And this is for man's benefit, not for God's.

It is interesting to note that in Matthew 19:17-19 Jesus only mentions six of the Commandments. The first four are not mentioned at all.
Anyone have an opinion on why? I ask because I don't know, not because I'm playing some silly game (as I've seen others on the forums do).

Good question. Jesus was showing Him what he lacked, He followed the law outwardly but not inwardly. He did not have the love in his heart which is what the spirit of the law teaches.

 

[haz]

Do you believe a follower of Christ should keep the commandments or do you think it is OK for a follower of Christ to sin.

How does a person sin?
Gal 2:18.
For if I build again the things which I destroyed (righteousness by works of the law), I make myself a transgressor/Sinner.

Christians know that our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.
Hence we do not preach or judge righteousness by works of the law. That is unbelief and makes you a sinner.
Our lifestyle/behavior often does improve, but it is not how righteousness is determined or proved.

But what you are preaching is the ministry of condemnation/death, written and engraved in stones, 2Cor 3:7. This ministry was done away with.

 

[Grandpa]

Good question. Jesus was showing Him what he lacked, He followed the law outwardly but not inwardly. He did not have the love in his heart which is what the spirit of the law teaches.

You can follow the law outwardly but not inwardly? How does that occur? I thought the Lord said by their fruits you shall know them...

Isn't fruit the outward manifestation of what people do...?

 

[kardiaoangelous]

Please pay attention as we examine the subtle errors in this comment.

I am truly sorry if this makes you feel like I am picking on you but I have to challenge your understanding in the OP.

You usually have very good posts, but I am sorry to say the OP is not one of your better moments. Please ponder what I say as I speak out of love and for the benefit of all.

Christ clothes us in His righteousness
Isaiah 61:10
(10) I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness,as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.
Romans 3:22
(22) Even the righteousness of God which is by faithof Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

We had not immediately enter into LaLa land as though we had to do nothing in cooperation with Christ to be clothed with Christ's righteousness.


The following things we are admonished to take action and “put on”, is that robe of righteousness:


Romans 13:12 “The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.”


ans 4:24 “And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.”


Ephesians 6:11 “Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.”


Colossians 3:10 “And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:


Colossians 3:12 “Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

It is only the righteousness of Christ which can make us perfect, no amount of obeying can make us perfect, Christ lived a perfect life for us (His righteousness). We are not only saved by His death but by His life.
Romans 5:10
(10) For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

That is a total bold faced misrepresentation.


How are we saved by his life? We are never told that it because he did it all for us.

Laodicea's comment is devoid of understanding this:
John 6:53 “Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.”


That is workmanship after the model of Christ, eating of his body's ways when it walked among us and taking deep into ourselves the same footsteps.


And only if we do that can his blood give us life.

We are not saved by good works we are saved for good works
Ephesians 2:8-10
(8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
(10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works,which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Wrong again. We are not saved by our own idea of good works, but we are saved by the good works of Christ, which are evidence that we have humbled ourselves to receive God's righteousness into ourselves after the footsteps of Christ.


Matthew 3:10 “And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.”


Why is what Jesus said at Matthew 3:10 so?


Becuse it our responsibility to do the works Jesus did so that we bear those fruits. And he will cut us down if we fail to do them, deceiving ourselves that if he wanted us to do them he would have compelled those works from us.


Well, he did compel those works from us and he did so by loving us enough to show us how to do them. 1 John 5:3 “For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.”

The only way we can overcome is to surrender to Him (die to self)
Romans 6:16
(16) Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

That is true but it means to get rid of our own idea of what constitute good works and learn from him what good works are so that we may do them just as he. (1 Peter 2:21-25)

We are not saved by our works but, by His works, all we can do is to surrender and let Him work in us

That sounds like he is saying we not not do any work and it is a danger for babes to hear that kind of thing said in that way.


We are not saved by our own works and we will not have life in us by God's righteousness if we do not apply ourselves to do his works.


Does not anyone know what it means to submit one's self to another's will? It means doing their will.

 

[Laodicea]

You can follow the law outwardly but not inwardly? How does that occur? I thought the Lord said by their fruits you shall know them...

Isn't fruit the outward manifestation of what people do...?

Have you read these verses?
Matthew 23:25-28 KJV(25) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
(26) Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
(27) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
(28) Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

 

[Laodicea]

kardiaoangelous I see that you do not understand properly my OP so I will put it in a way that you can hopefully understand.
1. The law demands perfection
2. We need to be perfect to be saved
3. All have sinned so no one can provide this perfection
4. Christ lived a perfect life
5. By surrender to Him this perfect life is transferred to us
6. We are to die daily, we are to surrender to Him every moment
7. The result of surrender to Him every moment is that we become like Christ.

Have you heard of Justification sanctification & glorification? They are like this:-
Justification=What Christ has done for us
Sanctification=What Christ is doing in us
Glorification=What Christ will do for us

So what does all this mean? God has provided a way in which we are to surrender to, we are workers together with God. God has provided everything but, will not choose for us.