Saved by Works

[Grandpa]

Have you read these verses?
Matthew 23:25-28 KJV(25) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
(26) Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
(27) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
(28) Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

Yes. I have.

But I guess I am confused about what you are trying to say. You are saying the Lord is telling them they are not following the law inwardly?

You don't think He is telling them that their "law keeping" is not working to cause them to be clean or righteous???

 

[kardiaoangelous]

kardiaoangelous I see that you do not understand properly my OP so I will put it in a way that you can hopefully understand.
1. The law demands perfection
2. We need to be perfect to be saved
3. All have sinned so no one can provide this perfection
4. Christ lived a perfect life
5. By surrender to Him this perfect life is transferred to us
6. We are to die daily, we are to surrender to Him every moment
7. The result of surrender to Him every moment is that we become like Christ.

Have you heard of Justification sanctification & glorification? They are like this:-
Justification=What Christ has done for us
Sanctification=What Christ is doing in us
Glorification=What Christ will do for us

So what does all this mean? God has provided a way in which we are to surrender to, we are workers together with God. God has provided everything but, will not choose for us.

Thank you for calmly correcting me.

I see it just as you have here described.

Sorry for misunderstanding.

 

[haz]

Sanctification=What Christ is doing in us

That is incorrect.
Instead it's:
Sanctification=what Christ has done for us.

Heb 10:10
we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

There is no gradual process of sanctification.

 

[Laodicea]

Yes. I have.

But I guess I am confused about what you are trying to say. You are saying the Lord is telling them they are not following the law inwardly?

You don't think He is telling them that their "law keeping" is not working to cause them to be clean or righteous???

The gospel is to work from the inside out. A true christian will be one in heart not just have an outward show as did the Pharisees.

 

[Laodicea]

That is incorrect.
Instead it's:
Sanctification=what Christ has done for us.

Heb 10:10
we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

There is no gradual process of sanctification.

Romans 5:10 KJV
(10) For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Notice the three steps in salvation. Also we are to grow in grace.
2 Peter 3:18 KJV
(18) But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

 

[loveme1]

If a message was sent to you today telling you your works were not perfect and that you must be strengthened, and you were not worthy and must overcome to be deemed worthy?

How would you reply?

 

[haz]

Romans 5:10 KJV
(10) For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Notice the three steps in salvation. Also we are to grow in grace.
2 Peter 3:18 KJV
(18) But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

The doctrine you follow makes assumptions to support a contradiction to Heb 10:10. The lukewarm doctrine you follow is mixing grace with works of the law.

Note Heb 10:10
we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

This verse spells out clearly that there is no gradual process of sanctification.

 

[kardiaoangelous]

That is incorrect.
Instead it's:
Sanctification=what Christ has done for us.

Heb 10:10
we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

There is no gradual process of sanctification.

No, that is not incorrect, though by the way you understand the verse you quoted you think it incorrect.

Ephesians 5:26-27 "That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."

You are stumbling at perspective and translation.

Hebrews 10:10 speaks in the perspective of the finished church. The church which will assuredly reach the point where it will be a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that will then be holy and without blemish.

The offerring of Christ's body in sacrifice for our sins made that opportunity to become sanctified through this process of cleansing, possible.

 

[Earlmayknowornot]

It saddens me that people do not realise what happened at the cross. Keep working and maybe you will make it if you're good enough. I will trust in the cross.

 

[kardiaoangelous]

It saddens me that people do not realise what happened at the cross. Keep working and maybe you will make it if you're good enough. I will trust in the cross.

It saddens me even more to see them cleave to their old ideas instead of digging deeper into the scriptures so that they might see they are wrong.

For we who have once believed as they are purporting, it is clearly understandable what they see that hangs them up from seeing the fuller picture.

We have the definite advantage in that we see what they see and what we see. They do not see yet what we see.

 

[Cobus]

Justification=What Christ has done for us
Sanctification=What Christ is doing in us
Glorification=What Christ will do for us

Nope this is not correct....
Jesus can do NOTING IN US if we are not glorified.... Glorification is the "God glorify us with the Holy Spirit"...
Let me explain this so ALL can understand....
When God glorifies us, he puts the Spirit of Chrsit Jesus in us. And that is the final GLORIFICATION of ALL His Children. Look what God says in 1 John 3.... WHOSOEVER is BORN OF GOD... CANNOT SIN.... FOR HIS SEED REMAINETH in him... This SEED is the SEED GOD GLORIFIED US WITH... The moment the Holy Spirit fills us... Enters into us... Give us a NEW LIFE (The life in Christ) REBIRTH of Christ in us... That moment is the moment of GLORIFICATION.... Jesus said it clearly in John 17.... Father the glory thou hast given me, I have given them....

This is how the three parts of God's salvation works....
Justification... The offering of the Holy Lamb ... The blood that purifieth us WHITE AS SNOW...
Sanctification.... The Lead of the Holy Spirit in three parts... Reproof of sin,,, Righteousness.... and Judgement.... From sin to righteousness, that is how the Holy Spirit LEADS.. It is how the Holy Spirit leads us to be SEPERATED... sanctify is to SEPERATE...
Glorification.... The Final step of the LEAD of the Holy Spirit.... Now that we followed HIM all the way to righteousness, OUT OF SIN AND EVIL.. we are SET APART, by the FILLING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT WE ARE NOW SEALED IN GOD WITH GOD. GLORIFICATION... TO MAKE GODLY...

Only NOW does Jesus do anything in us, before this HE ONLY LEAD, and we had to FOLLOW... God can only justify what we nail to the cross... Jesus said take up your cross and FOLLOW ME... that is step by step nail ALL sin to the cross we bear and follow Him. When the LAST ONE is nailed... WE ARE 100% DEAD to sin and God justified ALL PAST SINS, and there will be no more sin we can commit,m because we are REMOVED and SET APART (sanctified and justified) set apart and made right... And now God GLORIFIES us with HIS SPIRIT, to be Holy (seperated by God for God) and perfect in the Light, by the Light...

 

[kardiaoangelous]

Justification=What Christ has done for us
Sanctification=What Christ is doing in us
Glorification=What Christ will do for us

Nope this is not correct....
Jesus can do NOTING IN US if we are not glorified.... Glorification is the "God glorify us with the Holy Spirit"...
Let me explain this so ALL can understand....
When God glorifies us, he puts the Spirit of Chrsit Jesus in us. And that is the final GLORIFICATION of ALL His Children. Look what God says in 1 John 3.... WHOSOEVER is BORN OF GOD... CANNOT SIN.... FOR HIS SEED REMAINETH in him... This SEED is the SEED GOD GLORIFIED US WITH... The moment the Holy Spirit fills us... Enters into us... Give us a NEW LIFE (The life in Christ) REBIRTH of Christ in us... That moment is the moment of GLORIFICATION.... Jesus said it clearly in John 17.... Father the glory thou hast given me, I have given them....

This is how the three parts of God's salvation works....
Justification... The offering of the Holy Lamb ... The blood that purifieth us WHITE AS SNOW...
Sanctification.... The Lead of the Holy Spirit in three parts... Reproof of sin,,, Righteousness.... and Judgement.... From sin to righteousness, that is how the Holy Spirit LEADS.. It is how the Holy Spirit leads us to be SEPERATED... sanctify is to SEPERATE...
Glorification.... The Final step of the LEAD of the Holy Spirit.... Now that we followed HIM all the way to righteousness, OUT OF SIN AND EVIL.. we are SET APART, by the FILLING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT WE ARE NOW SEALED IN GOD WITH GOD. GLORIFICATION... TO MAKE GODLY...

Only NOW does Jesus do anything in us, before this HE ONLY LEAD, and we had to FOLLOW... God can only justify what we nail to the cross... Jesus said take up your cross and FOLLOW ME... that is step by step nail ALL sin to the cross we bear and follow Him. When the LAST ONE is nailed... WE ARE 100% DEAD to sin and God justified ALL PAST SINS, and there will be no more sin we can commit,m because we are REMOVED and SET APART (sanctified and justified) set apart and made right... And now God GLORIFIES us with HIS SPIRIT, to be Holy (seperated by God for God) and perfect in the Light, by the Light...

Now you are stumbling at perspective.

Justification=What Christ has done for us = Cleaning our slate of sin so that we have approach to God through Christ's holiness which is Christ's holiness, not ours as of yet.

Sanctification=What Christ is doing in us = what Ephesians 5:26-27 clearly said.

Glorification=What Christ will do for us = the end result as Ephesians 5:26-27 clearly said.

You quoted 1 John 3.... WHOSOEVER is BORN OF GOD... CANNOT SIN.... FOR HIS SEED REMAINETH in him...

There it is speaking to individuals using the singular Greek pronouns whereas in Hebrews 10:10 it is the plural Greek pronouns indicating the Church as a body.

As this cleansing proceeds it happens for different members in their own time. Thus what John said was necessary for him to say for the sake of those who had not advanced to the point yet.

 

[Cobus]

Kardi, we agree and Lao put it so well.... It is not our works that makes us His, It was God making us HIS that we do HIS work...
I just believe that ALL people that is glorified, are the COMPLETE work of God to DO WORKS..

I think God started the work on you and me, even before we were born... God said he wrote our names in the book of life even before the earth was made... So even before I committed any sin, god has already known me...


but when did God make me a PART of His holy church... the Perfect BODY OF CHRIST... Only when HE MADE CHRIST ALIVE IN ME... REBIRTH, BORN OF GOD...
Every person god EDIFIES to the Body of Christ, God at that moment makes him a perfect man... With the FILLING of the Spirit of God, to the same measure and fulness of Jesus. This is the BAPTISM, INPLANTING and FULNESS of the Holy Spirit into the flesh...
Then that God quickens our mortal body, to be 100% obedient to His will,.... But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Our bodies is quickened the moment the Spirit comes to DWELL IN US... NOT LEAD US BUT MOVE AND DWELL IN IS..

Just to not get any confused... Iam not YET joined to this body...

 

[Laodicea]

Justification=What Christ has done for us
Sanctification=What Christ is doing in us
Glorification=What Christ will do for us

Nope this is not correct....
Jesus can do NOTING IN US if we are not glorified.... Glorification is the "God glorify us with the Holy Spirit"...
Let me explain this so ALL can understand....
When God glorifies us, he puts the Spirit of Chrsit Jesus in us. And that is the final GLORIFICATION of ALL His Children. Look what God says in 1 John 3.... WHOSOEVER is BORN OF GOD... CANNOT SIN.... FOR HIS SEED REMAINETH in him... This SEED is the SEED GOD GLORIFIED US WITH... The moment the Holy Spirit fills us... Enters into us... Give us a NEW LIFE (The life in Christ) REBIRTH of Christ in us... That moment is the moment of GLORIFICATION.... Jesus said it clearly in John 17.... Father the glory thou hast given me, I have given them....

This is how the three parts of God's salvation works....
Justification... The offering of the Holy Lamb ... The blood that purifieth us WHITE AS SNOW...
Sanctification.... The Lead of the Holy Spirit in three parts... Reproof of sin,,, Righteousness.... and Judgement.... From sin to righteousness, that is how the Holy Spirit LEADS.. It is how the Holy Spirit leads us to be SEPERATED... sanctify is to SEPERATE...
Glorification.... The Final step of the LEAD of the Holy Spirit.... Now that we followed HIM all the way to righteousness, OUT OF SIN AND EVIL.. we are SET APART, by the FILLING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT WE ARE NOW SEALED IN GOD WITH GOD. GLORIFICATION... TO MAKE GODLY...

Only NOW does Jesus do anything in us, before this HE ONLY LEAD, and we had to FOLLOW... God can only justify what we nail to the cross... Jesus said take up your cross and FOLLOW ME... that is step by step nail ALL sin to the cross we bear and follow Him. When the LAST ONE is nailed... WE ARE 100% DEAD to sin and God justified ALL PAST SINS, and there will be no more sin we can commit,m because we are REMOVED and SET APART (sanctified and justified) set apart and made right... And now God GLORIFIES us with HIS SPIRIT, to be Holy (seperated by God for God) and perfect in the Light, by the Light...

Glorification is when we receive a new body at the return of Christ

 

[haz]

No, that is not incorrect, though by the way you understand the verse you quoted you think it incorrect.

Ephesians 5:26-27 "That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."

You are stumbling at perspective and translation.

Hebrews 10:10 speaks in the perspective of the finished church. The church which will assuredly reach the point where it will be a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that will then be holy and without blemish.

The offerring of Christ's body in sacrifice for our sins made that opportunity to become sanctified through this process of cleansing, possible.

You are incorrect in your understanding. I don't know what doctrine you follow, but I've found that often those who argue that sanctification is a process, also mix grace with works of the law.

Your understanding of Heb 10:10 contradicts it's explict message. Believers have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
There is clearly no process spoken of here.

I suspect your contradiction of this scripture is done so to support a doctrine of works of the law. This is commonly done by those who mix grace with works of the law.

Note also 1Cor 6:11
you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

And this is supported by Eph 5:26,27
that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.

Believers have been sanctified and washed through the offering of the body of Christ. Regardless of whether one received Jesus on their death bed or whether they lived on for years as a Christian, the very day they received Christ they were sanctified. They are without spot and wrinkle in Christ.

 

[kardiaoangelous]

You are incorrect in your understanding. I don't know what doctrine you follow, but I've found that often those who argue that sanctification is a process, also mix grace with works of the law.

Your understanding of Heb 10:10 contradicts it's explict message. Believers have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
There is clearly no process spoken of here.

I suspect your contradiction of this scripture is done so to support a doctrine of works of the law. This is commonly done by those who mix grace with works of the law.

Note also 1Cor 6:11
you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

And this is supported by Eph 5:26,27
that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.

Believers have been sanctified and washed through the offering of the body of Christ. Regardless of whether one received Jesus on their death bed or whether they lived on for years as a Christian, the very day they received Christ they were sanctified. They are without spot and wrinkle in Christ.

There you go making the very same mistake as the others, ignoring the plural pronouns which show he is saying that not of the individuals but of the body of Christ.

You do not seem to get it that Christ did all that to pre-sanctify his spiritual body which we then must draw to as members by: 2 Corinthians 7:1 "Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God."

 

[kardiaoangelous]

2 Corinthians 7:1 is describing: 1 Peter 1:2 "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ"

The obedience (perfect obedience) must be there for it to be true of our self as an individual.

Again with the plural pronouns indicating the body of Christ, Paul says, 1 Corinthians 3:16 "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?"

Then he refers to the individuals defiling that body of Christ:
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

 

[haz]

2 Corinthians 7:1 is describing: 1 Peter 1:2 "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ"

The obedience (perfect obedience) must be there for it to be true of our self as an individual.

Again with the plural pronouns indicating the body of Christ, Paul says, 1 Corinthians 3:16 "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?"

Then he refers to the individuals defiling that body of Christ:
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

Again we'll have to disagree.

You follow a doctrine that mixes works of the law with grace.

But instead we find in scripture that a believer's perfect obedience is to the gospel. Believe in Jesus.
Our works are to believe in Jesus, John 6:29.
God's will for us is to believe in Jesus, John 6:40.

In believing in Jesus we cleanse ourselves, we're sanctified (Heb 10:10), holy (Rom 11:16), perfected (Heb 10:14), cannot sin (1John 3:9), and righteous.

The assumption that this is all a gradual process is contradictory to scripture. Whether speaking of individual Christians or the body of Christ (as you seem to want to separate these 2), there is no gradual sanctification (as scripture clearly indicates).

And how does one defile the temple of God?
1Cor 6:18,19
Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Heb 12:15-17
Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.



How does one fail the grace of God/fornicate?
Gal 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

To be under the law (which includes the lukewarm mixing of grace with works of the law) is fornication with Hagar/the law (Gal 4:24).

Take note of God's will for us is:
1Thess 4:3
For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:

When we believe in Jesus we're sanctified through the offering of the body of Christ, Heb 10:10.

But, to fornicate with Hagar/the law results in condemnation.
You cannot mix grace with works of the law. This is fornication.
Rom 11:6
if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

 

[kardiaoangelous]

Again we'll have to disagree.

You follow a doctrine that mixes works of the law with grace.

But instead we find in scripture that a believer's perfect obedience is to the gospel. Believe in Jesus.
Our works are to believe in Jesus, John 6:29.
God's will for us is to believe in Jesus, John 6:40.

In believing in Jesus we cleanse ourselves, we're sanctified (Heb 10:10), holy (Rom 11:16), perfected (Heb 10:14), cannot sin (1John 3:9), and righteous.

The assumption that this is all a gradual process is contradictory to scripture. Whether speaking of individual Christians or the body of Christ (as you seem to want to separate these 2), there is no gradual sanctification (as scripture clearly indicates).

And how does one defile the temple of God?
1Cor 6:18,19
Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Heb 12:15-17
Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.



How does one fail the grace of God/fornicate?
Gal 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

To be under the law (which includes the lukewarm mixing of grace with works of the law) is fornication with Hagar/the law (Gal 4:24).

Take note of God's will for us is:
1Thess 4:3
For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:

When we believe in Jesus we're sanctified through the offering of the body of Christ, Heb 10:10.

But, to fornicate with Hagar/the law results in condemnation.
You cannot mix grace with works of the law. This is fornication.
Rom 11:6
if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

I do not "follow a doctrine that mixes works of the law with grace", haz. The problem is that you do not understand that Paul was specifically speaking of the works of the Old Law Covenant which were done by looking at the letter of that law rather than at Jesus to see how to properly live by that law.

Looking at Jesus does not absolve us of having to fulfill that Old Law, haz. It in fact makes us more liable for our failure to fulfill it. And you are protesting yourself right out of really learning how that is done.

You are deceiving yourself with much talk that you already know how it is done.

When you are ready to really discuss this, let me know.

Romans 8:4 "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

 

[haz]

I do not "follow a doctrine that mixes works of the law with grace", haz. The problem is that you do not understand that Paul was specifically speaking of the works of the Old Law Covenant which were done by looking at the letter of that law rather than at Jesus to see how to properly live by that law.

Looking at Jesus does not absolve us of having to fulfill that Old Law, haz. It in fact makes us more liable for our failure to fulfill it. And you are protesting yourself right out of really learning how that is done.

You are deceiving yourself with much talk that you already know how it is done.

When you are ready to really discuss this, let me know.

Romans 8:4 "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Note your claim that you do not follow a doctrine that mixes works of the law with grace but, then you contradict this and preach on "how to properly live by that law".

In following such doctrines under the law, you are only opposing yourself.

And in teaching such doctrines the consequences are more severe.

Note James 3:1-
let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment......

Even so the tongue is a little member and boasts great things
See how great a forest a little fire kindles! And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity. The tongue is so set among our members that it defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire by hell..........

And note the example it uses in James 3:8-12 of the tongue defiling the body.

It is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. With it we bless our God and Father (love), and with it we curse men (judge/condemn), who have been made in the similitude of God. Out of the same mouth proceed blessing (love and grace) and cursing (judgement/condemnation). My brethren, these things ought not to be so. Does a spring send forth fresh water (love/grace) and bitter (judgement/condemnation) from the same opening?

We cannot mix grace with works of the law.
Rom 11:6
if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

To mix these 2 is to be lukewarm, Rev 3:15,16.

The doctrine you follow only corrupts peoples minds from the simplicity that is in Christ.
2Cor 11:3
But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Just believe in Jesus. These are our works, John 6:29. This is the simplicity that is in Christ.