Scientific proof God's word is truth!

[homwardbound]

There is no way a believer can prove that God exists, to an Atheist or unbeliever. Likewise, there's no way an unbeliever or Atheist can't prove that God doesn't exist.

God is Spirit, He can't be seen because Spirits are invisible.

Romans 1:20 says; "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that were made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse".

This verse seems to indicate that mankind knows that God exists, because the created things must have been created by a creator.

I don't think that science deals with things such as spirits, which can't be seen or tested.

At first birth all are born with the knowledge of good and evil. To choose God (Good) or evil, Evil,not good for the soul, to choose evil selfishness over others, at least for me, Yet the first born flesh loves evil, Romans 8:3, does not care if harms others ever, even though acts as if does, in churches.and in the world we are in and not part of. Yet, once see the truth from God to you personally too. How can one not do as asked to do from God for you, once see God is love above all 1 Cor 13:13 and does not end. Then neither will you either, Born again in God's Spirit and Truth forever too, thank you Father.
I grow up here on earth in flesh and blood. I learn good and bad, I go through bad experiences expecting good, not expecting bad. I get bad happen that I see as not good, when others see it as good. Some are correct and some are not. Are we to get punished or disciplined? better from God not man at all, includes me, what do you think? Does God love us all or not?
What is wrong in this picture? Man is in charge and uses God to get their way
Is everyone playing God? We are born in first birth in the image of God right? Yet we are not God. Psalms 82 a great chapter on man's demise playing God over other people as if they know and you do not. We the people cause our own demise, when not trusting in the Father of the risen Son for us, at least me, I am learning this truth deeper and wider and higher daily thank you God for loving us all through Son as risen forever to never die again, thank you

 

[Brasspen]

Jesus said, 'At least believe for for the very works sake.'

 

[Dino246]

Jesus said, 'At least believe for for the very works sake.'

He said that to people who had actually witnessed the miracles. By themselves, records of miracles stand only as literary evidence but not as scientific evidence today.

 

[pinebeach]

@Dino246 the scientific proof is that it happens. God said this is what happens when you don't obey, and this is what happens when you do. And then it happens to them. Proof God's word is truth.

Correct. Science is observable. Scientific 'facts' are established through repetition of certain perameters being reproduced with the result being consistently achievable. You can look that up and see that is, in fact, what constitutes 'science'. Notwithstandng that science as we know, is subject to change as further observeable criteria change or discoveries made.

Yes, God's word is true. And unlike science in this world, it does not change.

I think your op is somehow a challenge to certain people who may have not been able to keep up with what you present. No use in debating about it. But as you will. This forum should be called the Bible Debate Forum or the Bible Difference Form rather than the discussion forum.



Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. James 1:17

 

[pinebeach]

He said that to people who had actually witnessed the miracles. By themselves, records of miracles stand only as literary evidence but not as scientific evidence today.

Oh well. Based on that descriptive, then I KNOW for certain that the op is correct. I'm iving proof and just like people living over 2000 years ago, all I can say is, I know because it happened to me. Funny how God does not seem to be that concerned with proving Himself to people.

 

[Brasspen]

@pinebeach God cannot be tempted, and God does not tempt anyone.

 

[Tex_MidwesternerNW]

The proof is right here in the world, right now. And it can be proven again and again.

When people do the things God commands, the blessings written in the bible happen. When they do not do those things, the curses happen. In my last 47 years of my life, I have seen it, and been part of it. It is proven every-time.

Job also gave testimony of this same thing when he was tempted to turn away from God. Written in the book of Job of the Old Testament. Job in he's life witnessed the destruction of those evil men, even their entire families.

If you was to look at stastics on things like AIDS, Herpies, STIs. You can see this curse written in the bible that God said will happen.

And it's more than just STIs, it's holes in their pockets, and many more.

And not just the curses, but you can see the blessings for those who do the will of God.

Now, knowing that God's word is proven to manifest and come true just as it's written, one should note that God talked about the end times, the judgement day.

Without appealing to scientific understanding, let me refer you to Romans 12:17-18 (NLT, Tyndale House) "Never pay back evil with more evil. Do things in such a way that everyone can see you are honorable. Do all that you can to live in peace with everyone."

What blessings await those who do! For we also do not commit sexual impurities, nor immorality, nor drug use, nor fighting with neighbors over properties, we have a very clear command! Do everything you can to live in peace with everyone.

And war is not practiced this way. Life is lived in peace, peacefully

 

[Journey_man]

At first birth all are born with the knowledge of good and evil. To choose God (Good) or evil, Evil,not good for the soul, to choose evil selfishness over others, at least for me, Yet the first born flesh loves evil, Romans 8:3, does not care if harms others ever, even though acts as if does, in churches.and in the world we are in and not part of. Yet, once see the truth from God to you personally too. How can one not do as asked to do from God for you, once see God is love above all 1 Cor 13:13 and does not end. Then neither will you either, Born again in God's Spirit and Truth forever too, thank you Father.
I grow up here on earth in flesh and blood. I learn good and bad, I go through bad experiences expecting good, not expecting bad. I get bad happen that I see as not good, when others see it as good. Some are correct and some are not. Are we to get punished or disciplined? better from God not man at all, includes me, what do you think? Does God love us all or not?
What is wrong in this picture? Man is in charge and uses God to get their way
Is everyone playing God? We are born in first birth in the image of God right? Yet we are not God. Psalms 82 a great chapter on man's demise playing God over other people as if they know and you do not. We the people cause our own demise, when not trusting in the Father of the risen Son for us, at least me, I am learning this truth deeper and wider and higher daily thank you God for loving us all through Son as risen forever to never die again, thank you

There are scriptures that describe mankind as being born dead (it must be referring to being born spiritually dead), with a fallen sin nature. God told Adam that he would die in the day that he eats of the forbidden fruit, but we know Adam went on to reach over 900 years of age.

I don't think that gaining "the knowledge of good and evil" means that we now have a clear and easy choice to choose good or evil.

Genesis 6:5 states, "Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually".

This verse describes the state of humanity before the Flood, indicating that all their intentions and motivations were inherently wicked all the time, leading to God's decision to destroy mankind.

Romans 5:12 "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned."

I'm pretty sure Romans 5:12 is speaking about "all men" and not only those before the flood.

Psalm 51:5 "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me." David's lament is seen as an acknowledgement that a sinful condition exists from the very moment of conception, not just as a result of later actions.

But thank God, mankind's fallen state is not a hopeless case, Romans 5:18"Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life."

Romans 5:18 sounds like a simple verse promising "the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life". The mystery of why some believe and other don't, still remains.
In your original post, you made it sound easy to believe in God, but the sad and mysterious reality is that a large percentage of mankind does not believe in God and they remain unbelievers to the end.

I appreciate you said that the evidence is clear that God exists and there are serious consequences for disobeying His commandments, but this doesn't seem to deter those who chose not to believe.

 

[Tex_MidwesternerNW]

There are scriptures that describe mankind as being born dead (it must be referring to being born spiritually dead), with a fallen sin nature. God told Adam that he would die in the day that he eats of the forbidden fruit, but we know Adam went on to reach over 900 years of age.

I don't think that gaining "the knowledge of good and evil" means that we now have a clear and easy choice to choose good or evil.

Genesis 6:5 states, "Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually".

This verse describes the state of humanity before the Flood, indicating that all their intentions and motivations were inherently wicked all the time, leading to God's decision to destroy mankind.

Romans 5:12 "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned."

I'm pretty sure Romans 5:12 is speaking about "all men" and not only those before the flood.

Psalm 51:5 "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me." David's lament is seen as an acknowledgement that a sinful condition exists from the very moment of conception, not just as a result of later actions.

But thank God, mankind's fallen state is not a hopeless case, Romans 5:18"Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life."

Romans 5:18 sounds like a simple verse promising "the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life". The mystery of why some believe and other don't, still remains.
In your original post, you made it sound easy to believe in God, but the sad and mysterious reality is that a large percentage of mankind does not believe in God and they remain unbelievers to the end.

I appreciate you said that the evidence is clear that God exists and there are serious consequences for disobeying His commandments, but this doesn't seem to deter those who chose not to believe.

I cannot come to Christ Jesus by my own strength, but I know factually that he rewards mercy. For if he required whole or burnt offerings he would have them, but he prefers I wash my face and show a contrite heart, willing to accept mercy.

Genesis 6:5 "The Lord observed the extent of human wickedness on the earth, and he saw that everything the thought or imagined was consistently and totally evil." (NLT, Tyndale House)
Romans 5:12-18 "When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam's sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned. Yes, people sinned even before the law was given. But it was not counted as sin because there was not yet any law to break... Yes, Adam's one sin brings condemnation for everyone, but Christ's one act of righteousness brings a right relationship with God and new life for everyone." (NLT, Tyndale House)
Psalms 51:5 "For I was born a sinner -- yes, from the moment my mother conceived me." (NLT, Tyndale House)

Human beings are born without the faculty to come to Jesus, and cannot by our strength or merit ever do so. We are born helpless, it's part of the human condition.

Knowing the difference between good and evil is actually an invitation to sin, as opposed to obedience to royal law, which intervenes using ministry to cause you to do good. For this reason taxes are collected from all citizens of working age. We actually have to deal with that aspect of being part of a stewardship vocation in order to provide lawful revenue, the fruits of spiritual life.

God condemned humanity because of the perverse mindset of antiquity, which did not have a law to rebel against and lived in a golden age of innocence, which He found to be revolting.

Christ drew a line in the sand. David was his ancestor and it is the Kingdom of David that came under Christ's dynastic and perpetual authority as a High Priest in the order of Melchizedek. He refined the law so that it could not be used as a soundboard for abusive behavior.

Everyone has spiritual gifts they can call upon in the service of the Lord, who no longer calls us slaves. Christianity is and always has been in stark opposition to slavery, we do not speak to servants as if they are cattle to be beaten with a cane. That would be unwholesome. God rewards mercy, and punishes mercilessness.

The free gift of God is his mercy, but his propitiation is costly. There is a price to pay.

 

[Journey_man]

I cannot come to Christ Jesus by my own strength, but I know factually that he rewards mercy. For if he required whole or burnt offerings he would have them, but he prefers I wash my face and show a contrite heart, willing to accept mercy.

Genesis 6:5 "The Lord observed the extent of human wickedness on the earth, and he saw that everything the thought or imagined was consistently and totally evil." (NLT, Tyndale House)
Romans 5:12-18 "When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam's sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned. Yes, people sinned even before the law was given. But it was not counted as sin because there was not yet any law to break... Yes, Adam's one sin brings condemnation for everyone, but Christ's one act of righteousness brings a right relationship with God and new life for everyone." (NLT, Tyndale House)
Psalms 51:5 "For I was born a sinner -- yes, from the moment my mother conceived me." (NLT, Tyndale House)

Human beings are born without the faculty to come to Jesus, and cannot by our strength or merit ever do so. We are born helpless, it's part of the human condition.

Knowing the difference between good and evil is actually an invitation to sin, as opposed to obedience to royal law, which intervenes using ministry to cause you to do good. For this reason taxes are collected from all citizens of working age. We actually have to deal with that aspect of being part of a stewardship vocation in order to provide lawful revenue, the fruits of spiritual life.

God condemned humanity because of the perverse mindset of antiquity, which did not have a law to rebel against and lived in a golden age of innocence, which He found to be revolting.

Christ drew a line in the sand. David was his ancestor and it is the Kingdom of David that came under Christ's dynastic and perpetual authority as a High Priest in the order of Melchizedek. He refined the law so that it could not be used as a soundboard for abusive behavior.

Everyone has spiritual gifts they can call upon in the service of the Lord, who no longer calls us slaves. Christianity is and always has been in stark opposition to slavery, we do not speak to servants as if they are cattle to be beaten with a cane. That would be unwholesome. God rewards mercy, and punishes mercilessness.

The free gift of God is his mercy, but his propitiation is costly. There is a price to pay.

Wow, there's a lot to unpack there, so bare with my while I try to make sure I understand it the right way.

First of all "the Lord Jesus doesn't require burnt offerings, but He prefers that we wash our face and show a contrite heart, willing to accept mercy"

Do you mean that the Lord is pleased to extend His mercy to us if we clean up our lives and repent of our sin. I'm sure you don't mean we clean up our act outwardly, so you must mean we wrestle against temptation and strive to live in obedience. Then express genuine sorrow for sinning against God, for we know that God looks at the heart or "our motive) for doing things.

I don't quite understand what you mean by this <"Yes, people sinned even before the law was given. But it was not counted as sin because there was not yet any law to break...">

As I understand it, sin spread to all mankind from Adam. And those who sinned before the law was given ( pre flood generation), did not sin in ignorance. I believe this because of verses such as;

Romans 1:20 "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse".

This verse doesn't mention sin itself, but I believe it's referring to their unbelief (which is sin) in and of itself.

I understand and agree that the natural man is unwilling and unable to come to Christ, there are many scriptures which describe this human condition.

I don't quite understand this, <"Knowing the difference between good and evil is actually an invitation to sin">. I did read the rest of the paragraph but I still didn't get the overall picture.

I also don't know of any scriptures which support the idea that <"God condemned humanity because of the perverse mindset of antiquity, which did not have a law to rebel against and lived in a golden age of innocence, which He found to be revolting">

It doesn't sound right to condemn a generation, who didn't know right from wrong. I'm sure that's not what you're suggesting but that's the way it comes across to me.

I would say the Lord Jesus fulfilled the law, rather than "He refined the law, so it would not be abused". I don't know of any man who was able to keep the law, apart from the Lord Jesus Himself. So the only way to save helpless sinners is to impute His perfect righteousness, onto us.

I think there's more to Gods gifts than just mercy, it would make a long list to name all the gifts that God gives to believers. And yes propitiation cost God everything he had, that being His only begotten Son.

 

[homwardbound]

Jesus said, 'At least believe for for the very works sake.'

Might look deeper, who goes to their death willingly without any flesh fight back at all? Then is risen three days later, I am getting the point slowly but assuredly, about no flesh fight needed, since he is risen

 

[homwardbound]

There are scriptures that describe mankind as being born dead (it must be referring to being born spiritually dead), with a fallen sin nature. God told Adam that he would die in the day that he eats of the forbidden fruit, but we know Adam went on to reach over 900 years of age.

I don't think that gaining "the knowledge of good and evil" means that we now have a clear and easy choice to choose good or evil.

Genesis 6:5 states, "Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually".

This verse describes the state of humanity before the Flood, indicating that all their intentions and motivations were inherently wicked all the time, leading to God's decision to destroy mankind.

Romans 5:12 "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned."

I'm pretty sure Romans 5:12 is speaking about "all men" and not only those before the flood.

Psalm 51:5 "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me." David's lament is seen as an acknowledgement that a sinful condition exists from the very moment of conception, not just as a result of later actions.

But thank God, mankind's fallen state is not a hopeless case, Romans 5:18"Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life."

Romans 5:18 sounds like a simple verse promising "the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life". The mystery of why some believe and other don't, still remains.
In your original post, you made it sound easy to believe in God, but the sad and mysterious reality is that a large percentage of mankind does not believe in God and they remain unbelievers to the end.

I appreciate you said that the evidence is clear that God exists and there are serious consequences for disobeying His commandments, but this doesn't seem to deter those who chose not to believe.

You right, All at first birth of flesh, but One (Jesus Christ) are born dead, Spiritually to God. You are right not easy at all. Each person needs to be born new by God Father in risen Son for them each, by Father. to see in love and mercy for all given through Son.
Father does this for all that will not give up on God to reveal truth to them. The one and only one that can, and does for all that do not quit Galatians 6:1-9
I can only point anyone to God through Son as risen for them to begin new and be sealed to see by God
Accepted, sealed and forgiven. Eph 1:1-13 God did it, accept it from God and be thrilled in care that you never knew, at least me.
I asked God to do this for you too, not that I am anybody, I am not, God is though all in all\

The problem today is the mixing of flesh nature and God's love for all through Son.
Son finished the work frist, for us to appreciate and do the same work of love and mercy as led to do, by God for them
Now see Matthew 5:20 and be thankful to God, I am to at least, be a toilet bowl scrubber in Heaven wow! Thank you Father

 

[Journey_man]

You right, All at first birth of flesh, but One (Jesus Christ) are born dead, Spiritually to God. You are right not easy at all. Each person needs to be born new by God Father in risen Son for them each, by Father. to see in love and mercy for all given through Son.
Father does this for all that will not give up on God to reveal truth to them. The one and only one that can, and does for all that do not quit Galatians 6:1-9
I can only point anyone to God through Son as risen for them to begin new and be sealed to see by God
Accepted, sealed and forgiven. Eph 1:1-13 God did it, accept it from God and be thrilled in care that you never knew, at least me.
I asked God to do this for you too, not that I am anybody, I am not, God is though all in all\

The problem today is the mixing of flesh nature and God's love for all through Son.
Son finished the work frist, for us to appreciate and do the same work of love and mercy as led to do, by God for them
Now see Matthew 5:20 and be thankful to God, I am to at least, be a toilet bowl scrubber in Heaven wow! Thank you Father

We agree, it's not easy to understand the mystery of how a person is born again. But we know Jesus said in,

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Even the disciples found it hard to understand how anyone can be saved,

Matthew 19:25-26 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?”
26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

You quoted Galatians 6:1-9 and stated that "the Father does this for all that will not give up on God to reveal truth to them".
But the disciples' question highlights the human impossibility of achieving salvation through personal effort, to which Jesus replies that divine intervention makes it possible.

You say "the problem today is mixing the flesh nature with Gods love", now this sounds a bit different from saying "the Father does this for all who will not give up on God" so now I'm wondering if you believe that salvation results in our obedience and Gods love/grace combined.

I'm asking you this question because there are many different views about this matter. Some Christians believe that salvation is all of grace and our good works don't persuade God to adopt us as His children.
Other Christians believe that we are saved by grace, but we must exercise our faith and discipline to obey Gods commandments, and then if we remain faithful to the end, He then saves us.

I don't want to get off topic, but I think I just have so maybe we should consider this subject in another forum. I was trying to make the point that Gods ways are mysterious, so we can't always categorise scriptures in a neat and simple sequence.

 

[homwardbound]

We agree, it's not easy to understand the mystery of how a person is born again. But we know Jesus said in,

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Even the disciples found it hard to understand how anyone can be saved,

Matthew 19:25-26 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?”
26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

You quoted Galatians 6:1-9 and stated that "the Father does this for all that will not give up on God to reveal truth to them".
But the disciples' question highlights the human impossibility of achieving salvation through personal effort, to which Jesus replies that divine intervention makes it possible.

You say "the problem today is mixing the flesh nature with Gods love", now this sounds a bit different from saying "the Father does this for all who will not give up on God" so now I'm wondering if you believe that salvation results in our obedience and Gods love/grace combined.

I'm asking you this question because there are many different views about this matter. Some Christians believe that salvation is all of grace and our good works don't persuade God to adopt us as His children.
Other Christians believe that we are saved by grace, but we must exercise our faith and discipline to obey Gods commandments, and then if we remain faithful to the end, He then saves us.

I don't want to get off topic, but I think I just have so maybe we should consider this subject in another forum. I was trying to make the point that Gods ways are mysterious, so we can't always categorise scriptures in a neat and simple sequence.

thank you for sharing this view as many have different views how people after belief are saved either one must and must not do, attitudes of the unredeemed flesh
Galatians, where Paul states how are you saved by belief or works
You started out and now you are having to do work, what??????????????????????

The answer is by God,as Son and Father are One (Won) for us all to choose to beleive God consciously, aware. Not by anyone or anything else, to me at last, after a long walk off a short pier daily for years under Law, learning. the new in process still. As I needed to see why Son came here to earth to take my place of death deserved and give me new life of love and mercy in his risen Life to be able to abide, and do it, without taking any credit to me, doing it. To seeing Romans 2:1-4, 2 Cor 12:7-10
I have seen over the years standing in belief Col 1:21-23, and not letting go, what God has done and has been getting done in me as well as others like yourself is done and being revealed to each as God sees fit, not me or anyone else

Thank you for your post, appreciated

 

[Journey_man]

thank you for sharing this view as many have different views how people after belief are saved either one must and must not do, attitudes of the unredeemed flesh
Galatians, where Paul states how are you saved by belief or works
You started out and now you are having to do work, what??????????????????????

The answer is by God,as Son and Father are One (Won) for us all to choose to beleive God consciously, aware. Not by anyone or anything else, to me at last, after a long walk off a short pier daily for years under Law, learning. the new in process still. As I needed to see why Son came here to earth to take my place of death deserved and give me new life of love and mercy in his risen Life to be able to abide, and do it, without taking any credit to me, doing it. To seeing Romans 2:1-4, 2 Cor 12:7-10
I have seen over the years standing in belief Col 1:21-23, and not letting go, what God has done and has been getting done in me as well as others like yourself is done and being revealed to each as God sees fit, not me or anyone else

Thank you for your post, appreciated

OK, I now have a clearer picture of what you believe. So allow me to explain what I think you meant. I think you were saying that our "good works" don't contribute to being saved, but we do good works after we are saved out of a grateful heart and not earn salvation.

I've noticed two extreme views being held by Christians, regarding salvation. Some believe we are saved at the end of living an obedient life, of doing good works.
Others believe they are already saved now, and the good works they do are not to claim the promise of salvation, in the next life.

There are verses of scripture which seem to support either of these two views. But there are other scriptures which some have used to say that we are saved by both grace and works combined. They use this following verses to support their view.

• James 2:17: "Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead".
• James 2:18: "Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works".
• James 2:26: "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also".

I get the sense that you believe that God is 100% responsible for your salvation. If I have understood you correctly, you believe that God has done everything necessary to save you, and you take no credit for anything.

 

[Edward429451]

There is no way a believer can prove that God exists, to an Atheist or unbeliever. Likewise, there's no way an unbeliever or Atheist can't prove that God doesn't exist.

God is Spirit, He can't be seen because Spirits are invisible.

I'm not so sure that this is true even though I have proof but not proof that I know how to share yet. After I became serious about following the Lord (aka when He saved my life) I knew that I had no proof of God but I chose to believe God and follow Him even without the intellectual knowledge of scripture or anything spiritual. And that is when the Lord gave me proof of Himself through signs and stuff.

And I read in scripture that That's what He says to do! He says Lean not upon your own understanding...right? So the following and trusting in Spirit and not academics or doctrine is what brings a man the truth from God. I have seen so much proof that God is real that I can not question that anymore.

But our God is one smart fellow. He never has given me any proof that I could bring to you and show you. You can't repeat proof from God in a lab. Yet you know and have seen a lot of proof.

You must take into consideration that we are all carnally indoctrinated from birth and in a way that makes a veil between the material world and the spiritual world. and it is this man that can not see the spiritual world.

John 4:23
23 But the time is coming—indeed it’s here now—when true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth. The Father is looking for those who will worship him that way.../NLT

So basically we have to engage the Spiritual realm and Spirits before we get to see them. I'm assuming that you're a born again Christian? So you have the Holy Spirit indwelling you. When is the last time you had a conversation with Him? Holy Spirit will lead us into All Truth. He is our Teacher and Guide!

So unless you engage the Spirit without seeing it first, you wont get any proof of God, and the truth is inside of you in the Holy Spirit.

I thought about it and I didn't want to hear, I never knew you so I figured it was safe to be the kid that never shuts up to Him so I started talking His ear off, inviting Him to go to work with me, after my morning prayer! And I can't "prove" it but I tell you what Brother, If you engage the spiritual realm (The Lord) prolifically You will begin to hear His voice and it turns in to a conversation.

Remember Prayer is not a monologue. It is a Dialogue. So you have to pause and listen at times. Prayer is how we speak to the Lord. Reading His word is (Primarily) how He talks to us. While we read our bible, our Bible is reading us.

Maybe this sounds nutty but the proof is in the spiritual connection. It's personal and largely non-transferable, but you know. When I watch Testimonies on Youtube I'll be wondering if it's true and credible and the Holy Spirit will quicken my spirit and I get total peace in my spirit, so I know that He is telling me that, this is true.

If I dont have peace in my spirit then it is not credible, period. The thing I had a bit of trouble with was perceiving it. These things that happen are not perceived with our 5 physical senses. It is done with the 5 spiritual senses so you have to get used to using them.

Our soul and spirit constantly fight and argue over who gets to give directives to our flesh body. Do we let the Spirit lead us, or the soulish desires of the world?

 

[Dino246]

The OP unfortunately used the term “scientific proof”. Unfortunately, this is a technical term that is rarely used because it is essentially an impossible standard.

There is proof in the moral sense, which is absolute, proof in the legal sense, which is based on available evidence, and scientific proof, which requires overwhelming evidence from scientific examination.

Even with well-established concepts such as acceleration due to gravity, the term “proof” is not used in the scientific sense.

 

[Edward429451]

The OP unfortunately used the term “scientific proof”. Unfortunately, this is a technical term that is rarely used because it is essentially an impossible standard.

There is proof in the moral sense, which is absolute, proof in the legal sense, which is based on available evidence, and scientific proof, which requires overwhelming evidence from scientific examination.

Even with well-established concepts such as acceleration due to gravity, the term “proof” is not used in the scientific sense.

I have to agree with that. Scripture says the things of God are plainly seen by His creation. So proof is all around. I used to not be able to see it because they had trained me to look with my eyes. Now that I have been walking with God for awhile, I see God's fingerprints everywhere!

I forgot to mention before, Atheists prove God's existence, absolutely. If God didn't really exist, then we couldn't have atheists! True!

Just a matter of perception.

 

[homwardbound]

OK, I now have a clearer picture of what you believe. So allow me to explain what I think you meant. I think you were saying that our "good works" don't contribute to being saved, but we do good works after we are saved out of a grateful heart and not earn salvation.

I've noticed two extreme views being held by Christians, regarding salvation. Some believe we are saved at the end of living an obedient life, of doing good works.
Others believe they are already saved now, and the good works they do are not to claim the promise of salvation, in the next life.

There are verses of scripture which seem to support either of these two views. But there are other scriptures which some have used to say that we are saved by both grace and works combined. They use this following verses to support their view.

• James 2:17: "Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead".
• James 2:18: "Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works".
• James 2:26: "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also".

I get the sense that you believe that God is 100% responsible for your salvation. If I have understood you correctly, you believe that God has done everything necessary to save you, and you take no credit for anything.

I simply trust God to train me. God teaches me, and God still speaks presently. I do not care to gain anymore than what God has given by Son as risen where new life to live new in is true. Elated over this. I do the done work of Son alone as Father leads for me to do this, not as others expect me to do. I am not perfect at this truth, still learning and in process too as all others as well are. Phil 3 is deep in truth.
I do work. Not doing any of my own work(s) anymore, yet can and have and have been revealed by Father where I have done them again. Never condemned by Father, just willing to learn from any and all mistakes made that are not well for my Soul, Father in risen Son training me!
I do, do work(s), not of the first born self. learned, learning in the done work of Son =, done once for everyone, to be new in the risen One Son and love all the same as Son did first, doing it willingly.
1 John2:1-27 to respond in thanksgiving and praise then do love and mercy also to all.
I have no righteousness of my own, it is the first born flesh nature that has that in itself. That gets anyone either in guilt or pride, under Law, and condemned by people, not God. As, I see in Luke 18:9-14 reveals to me to see humbly. Now to know thankfully by God I am forgiven and remain that way by God=, working with me to teach me my mistakes that are not well for my soul
Forgiven, forgiveness asked for is the way we, I have been given freedom to love in the same mercy and truth of Son. Since, Father and Son have Won, I do not get the credit. This tells me whoever does get the credit for any good done through them. Tells me whether it is of the flesh or the Spirit of God. Father and Son, or of flesh nature, flesh cannot, will not please Father and never has pleased God, Romans 8:3. Only Son's done work has done that for us to be new in love and mercy given us first to all also, includes everyone, even those that have done us wrong and others we have wronged also. That be what Son has done, going to that cross willingly without asking anyone if he should do that. He stated to Father, nevertheless not my will your will Father and went all the way willingly. The depth in that alone, wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Isaiah 6:1-7 Now is risen where the tongs from the fire are at to even touch anyone else's lips

God simply loves us all, get that in you and be freed as in Col 2 tells us at least me, please read from Chapter 1 to keep in context

 

[Edward429451]

I think everybody that I have listened to their Testimony of going to heaven for a visit, all of them say they feel like they are more at "Home" there than they do on earth. And supposedly the scientists are saying that the material world comprises about 5% of everything. So the spiritual realm would comprise 95%. So, better start walking like it's for real.