Scripture Based Flat Earth Proposition

[Sculpt]

I've already examined the evidence, and it makes more sense with a stationary earth. Otherwise, how does Polaris ALWAYS stay in the same spot in the sky during the earth's orbit, especially with the earth gyrating around the sun as it flies through galaxies? There are about 68 verses in the Bible that speak of the sun being up, rising, setting, going down, etc.; but there isn't even one reference to the earth moving.

Thank you for asking the questions. I will answer your questions, but in this post (to keep them shorter) I just wanted to get to a larger issue first.

I've been researching the issue for some time, especially Genesis 'waters above' issue and general cosmology. Many ancient scholars and researchers who've studied ancient writings, including the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible) conclude many ancients (civilizations around Hebrews, and the Hebrews) may have believed the blue of the sky was literally liquid water, being held up by ice, glass or some other substance. (Something I assume you don't believe.) And possibly that the earth was flat, that the land was floating in the sea that surrounded it. (Here's a few articles you might find interesting 1, 2, 3, 4.)

Isaiah 40:22, if you read the full chapter, and all of Isaiah, we see that verse is poetic praise of God. It may subtlety include ancient assumptions of some, limited by the always growing knowledge of nature; but these are not scientific declarations of God. It's not a science book.

You have Deuteronomy 14:11-18 that appears to declare a bat is a bird. There was no scientific definition or established classification of a bird in that time. Or we have Jesus say the mustard seed is, "the smallest of all seeds on earth". This was His audience's understanding of the day; but it isn't the smallest seed on earth. Was it a science lesson, or a message to His audience about faith? Do you feel the need to deny the known existence of smaller seeds?

Paul writes, "Greet each other with a holy kiss". This was based on cultural of that place and time. Do you feel the need to kiss at church (assuming you go)? Matthew 1:16 reads Joseph the son of Jacob, whereas Luke 3:23 reads Joseph the son of Heli. We aren't to read the Bible like a robot, a simpleton or a science book. Rather the Bible itself reads, "How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity?" "The heart of the discerning acquires knowledge, for the ears of the wise seek it out." "To the young man knowledge and discretion—A wise man will hear and increase learning".

Finally, I've read what many FE folks have written on here about what they think will happen if people start believing the earth is flat... "they'll become Christians, stop believing those government' lies and everything will become good." But the obvious question is, where are we putting our faith? In a FE belief, or Jesus and the gospel message? What do you think is going to happen when someone falls for this as a "Christian doctrine" and then discovers through research, as I have, and many will, that the earth is a spinning sphere? They are likely to associate that sting of being fooled with Christianity.

 

[Romans34]

@Snackersmom - the above image is how people who cannot make their mind leave the Ball Earth model description imagine the Flat Earth model to be. But, it bears no resemblance to the Flat Earth model - the depiction of the everything in that image is incorrect. And, all that is seen (except the earth) is much smaller and much closer to the earth - above the earth.

Everything we see in the sky is within thousands of miles and not millions, billions, or trillions.

The sun is not a 'star' - the Bible speaks of them differently. The "planets" are actually stars.

The point I am trying to make is that - if you are going to look at the Flat Earth model - you must look at it from a FE POV - you cannot look at it from a BE POV and expect to understand it correctly.

Only, it's a mockery instead of an attempt to understand. Hence, what I said in Post # 753 & 755.

 

[Romans34]

Thank you for asking the questions. I will answer your questions, but in this post (to keep them shorter) I just wanted to get to a larger issue first.

I've been researching the issue for some time, especially Genesis 'waters above' issue and general cosmology. Many ancient scholars and researchers who've studied ancient writings, including the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible) conclude many ancients (civilizations around Hebrews, and the Hebrews) may have believed the blue of the sky was literally liquid water, being held up by ice, glass or some other substance. (Something I assume you don't believe.) And possibly that the earth was flat, that the land was floating in the sea that surrounded it. (Here's a few articles you might find interesting 1, 2, 3, 4.)

I will check out the articles as I have time. I do believe it's probable that the sky is blue because of the water.

Isaiah 40:22, if you read the full chapter, and all of Isaiah, we see that verse is poetic praise of God. It may subtlety include ancient assumptions of some, limited by the always growing knowledge of nature; but these are not scientific declarations of God. It's not a science book.

You have Deuteronomy 14:11-18 that appears to declare a bat is a bird. There was no scientific definition or established classification of a bird in that time. Or we have Jesus say the mustard seed is, "the smallest of all seeds on earth". This was His audience's understanding of the day; but it isn't the smallest seed on earth. Was it a science lesson, or a message to His audience about faith? Do you feel the need to deny the known existence of smaller seeds?

Paul writes, "Greet each other with a holy kiss". This was based on cultural of that place and time. Do you feel the need to kiss at church (assuming you go)? Matthew 1:16 reads Joseph the son of Jacob, whereas Luke 3:23 reads Joseph the son of Heli. We aren't to read the Bible like a robot, a simpleton or a science book. Rather the Bible itself reads, "How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity?" "The heart of the discerning acquires knowledge, for the ears of the wise seek it out." "To the young man knowledge and discretion—A wise man will hear and increase learning".

. . . more and more and more questions. Seems like a diversion tactic to get off topic and avoid facing the music.

Finally, I've read what many FE folks have written on here about what they think will happen if people start believing the earth is flat... "they'll become Christians, stop believing those government' lies and everything will become good." But the obvious question is, where are we putting our faith? In a FE belief, or Jesus and the gospel message? What do you think is going to happen when someone falls for this as a "Christian doctrine" and then discovers through research, as I have, and many will, that the earth is a spinning sphere? They are likely to associate that sting of being fooled with Christianity.

It shouldn't have to be viewed as a "Christian doctrine", but if it was believed by all, then all would know there is a God they will have to give answer to. I'd say that would be a good thing, don't you?

 

[Romans34]

Thank you for asking the questions. I will answer your questions . . .

Now you can go ahead and answer the questions.

 

[GaryA]

Only, it's a mockery instead of an attempt to understand. Hence, what I said in Post # 753 & 755.

Of course, it is a mockery - partially because they choose to look at it from a Ball Earth perspective.

Those who truly want to understand the Flat Earth model will look at it from a Flat Earth perspective.

My point was that people well-indoctrinated by the Ball Earth model system either refuse to or are unable to pull themselves away from it long enough to take a proper-and-correct view of the Flat Earth model - which can only be obtained if they are willing-and-able to put Ball Earth aside while they look into the Flat Earth model.

 

[Dino246]

Do you claim to have examined the evidence, and if so, does that mean that since you claim to have examined the evidence, yours is a question of deliberate, chosen ignorance, not lack of information? Instead of making unfounded accusations, why don't you just call it "opinion"? Also, why don't you "put your money where your mouth is" and answer and explain my question about Polaris and the stars?

You said yourself that you have examined the evidence, yet you ask a basic question. That tells me that either you have not, in fact, examined the evidence as you claim, or that you have rejected the evidence for some reason, and therefore I'm wasting my time explaining it to you.

Sad when modern day so-called science converts men to believe not only what is contrary to Scripture, but contrary to ... common sense.

Asserting that your position is consistent with common sense is sheer arrogance.

 

[Romans34]

You said yourself that you have examined the evidence, yet you ask a basic question. That tells me that either you have not, in fact, examined the evidence as you claim, or that you have rejected the evidence for some reason, and therefore I'm wasting my time explaining it to you.

Your not being able (or willing) to answer a basic question tells me that you don't have an answer. The 'evidence' you are referring to doesn't explain how Polaris has (with very minimal movement) remained in the same place for thousands of years. So I asked the 'basic' question. Because the true evidence (reality) points to something other than what I learned in science class in high school. And I believed what I learned in science class until I found something that made more sense, not to mention being more consistent with Scripture.

Asserting that your position is consistent with common sense is sheer arrogance.

You can accuse me of arrogance all you want, but if those that read this thread (and others) will be honest, they will admit that those who truly come across as arrogant are those who act like they have it all together, but when prompted for answers make excuses why they cannot or will not spit them out. Please allow me to quote myself from Post #1:
There’s no place for arrogance in knowing the Truth. Coming to the realization of the Truth is a very humbling experience. If one is not humbled by the Truth, then what he knows is probably not the Truth.

 

[Snackersmom]

The FE model doesn't have "outer space" and "planets" as such. Whether sun, moon, and stars are flat or spherical is irrelevant if there is no "outer space", no "planets", no "galaxies", no "universe", etc. From a Biblical perspective, what we call "planets" are 'wondering stars' in reality, and while the Earth is what God called the "dry land" (as opposed to the Seas, or gathering together of the waters), and all of the rest of the "planets" were named after pagan gods and goddesses.

Thank you for your response! I'm confused about something though.... you said it's irrelevant whether sun, moon, stars etc. are flat or spherical...... why? If the whole flat earth "doctrine" is based off the necessity of the Earth being flat, why does it only matter if the Earth is flat, and not the heavenly bodies? Don't they matter too? Why are they allowed to spherical, and the Earth isn't?

@Snackersmom - the above image is how people who cannot make their mind leave the Ball Earth model description imagine the Flat Earth model to be. But, it bears no resemblance to the Flat Earth model. The point I am trying to make is that - if you are going to look at the Flat Earth model - you must look at it from a FE POV - you cannot look at it from a BE POV and expect to understand it correctly.

Thank you Gary! And yes, I do agree with you, I only want flat earth info. from a flat earth perspective. I think what intrigues me most about y'alls viewpoint is how you're so dead-set on it..... like, why does it matter so much? @Romans34 has outright said that the Bible isn't plain regarding the shape of Earth. But it IS very plain about the diety, death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and other matters of spiritualy growth and harmony in the body of Christ..... so isn't that what we should be focusing on?

I've seen some of your posts in prayer requests and other places, and what you have to say is usually very pointed, relevant, and helpful. Like, once I was reading a post and turning the OPs problem around in my head, it was complicated and I felt I knew the answers but wasn't looking forward to trying to explain it. And then I scroll down and see that you have taken the problem apart systematically, broken it down and explained it line-by-line...... and done an amazing job with it! I remember that the OP was very thankful for your help. Of course, how you spend your time here is up to you, I'm just telling you something I observed where it really seemed God was using you .

 

[Romans34]

Thank you for your response! I'm confused about something though.... you said it's irrelevant whether sun, moon, stars etc. are flat or spherical...... why? If the whole flat earth "doctrine" is based off the necessity of the Earth being flat, why does it only matter if the Earth is flat, and not the heavenly bodies? Don't they matter too? Why are they allowed to spherical, and the Earth isn't?




Thank you Gary! And yes, I do agree with you, I only want flat earth info. from a flat earth perspective. I think what intrigues me most about y'alls viewpoint is how you're so dead-set on it..... like, why does it matter so much? @Romans34 has outright said that the Bible isn't plain regarding the shape of Earth. But it IS very plain about the diety, death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and other matters of spiritualy growth and harmony in the body of Christ..... so isn't that what we should be focusing on?

I've seen some of your posts in prayer requests and other places, and what you have to say is usually very pointed, relevant, and helpful. Like, once I was reading a post and turning the OPs problem around in my head, it was complicated and I felt I knew the answers but wasn't looking forward to trying to explain it. And then I scroll down and see that you have taken the problem apart systematically, broken it down and explained it line-by-line...... and done an amazing job with it! I remember that the OP was very thankful for your help. Of course, how you spend your time here is up to you, I'm just telling you something I observed where it really seemed God was using you .

Thank you for your inquiry. Since the majority of this post addresses GaryA in particular, I will give him time to respond before I do.

 

[UnoiAmarah]

There's nothing said about God creating any heaven or firmament on day 1. Just Day and Night.

The first day is the from the beginning Genesis 1;1 when darkness upon appeared on the face of the deep and Genesis 1:5.

Evening is the onset of darkness and morning is the onset of visible light.

 

[Dino246]

Your not being able (or willing) to answer a basic question tells me that you don't have an answer.

Polaris is very near to the North polar axis and also quite distant. Its position in the sky is essentially unchanging to all but modern measurements. This makes it very useful for navigation.

Further, because it is so far away, its elevation angle is the same as the latitude of the observer on Earth. That alone makes a flat Earth impossible, but there are many other lines of evidence.

Now, can you please explain Polaris from your FE perspective, accounting for the observable phenomena.

 

[Snackersmom]

Thank you for your inquiry. Since the majority of this post addresses GaryA in particular, I will give him time to respond before I do.

No worries! 😎 But I would be curious about your viewpoint on the same things I inquired of Gary.... if the Bible isn't clear on the subject, why does it matter so much? 🤔 Seems it could be a distraction from the gospel if we aren't careful 🥺.

 

[GaryA]

Thank you Gary! And yes, I do agree with you, I only want flat earth info. from a flat earth perspective. I think what intrigues me most about y'alls viewpoint is how you're so dead-set on it..... like, why does it matter so much? @Romans34 has outright said that the Bible isn't plain regarding the shape of Earth. But it IS very plain about the diety, death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and other matters of spiritualy growth and harmony in the body of Christ..... so isn't that what we should be focusing on?

I've seen some of your posts in prayer requests and other places, and what you have to say is usually very pointed, relevant, and helpful. Like, once I was reading a post and turning the OPs problem around in my head, it was complicated and I felt I knew the answers but wasn't looking forward to trying to explain it. And then I scroll down and see that you have taken the problem apart systematically, broken it down and explained it line-by-line...... and done an amazing job with it! I remember that the OP was very thankful for your help. Of course, how you spend your time here is up to you, I'm just telling you something I observed where it really seemed God was using you .

Thank you, darlin' - your kind words have encouraged me... <3

Like many things - this topic is not by any means the most important - but - it is important - because, all truth is important.

The gospel is certainly far more important; however, that does not mean there is no room for other topics when it comes to truth.

Yes, our focus should be on the more "weighty" matters; however, just how "weighty" is this matter if it is true? (biblical Flat Earth)

As far as my time goes - I think my time on CC has-been-and-will-be "dwindling" as necessary IRL things take more of my attention.

I throw my two-cents in when I think it might be worth something to someone - and, I am delighted if God uses me to help someone.

At this moment in time, I would like to answer your question with a question - what would it mean to you if you came to the full knowledge, understanding, and belief that the Flat Earth model is true and correct? Would there be any chance at all of "hiding God" ? What about the billions of taxpayer dollars that go to NASA every year? You see - there are so many issues that hinge upon this one.

As a more direct answer to your question - I am one of those people who wants to know the truth - "even if it hurts" - because, to me, truth really is that important...

 

[GaryA]

if the Bible isn't clear on the subject

I would not necessarily use the words "isn't clear" - I think it is very clear - it does not have to literally say "the earth is flat" to be clear. What it is clear about is that - based on how it describes the earth - the earth cannot possibly be a spinning ball flying through space.

 

[GaryA]

(And, it's description can generally be regarded as describing a 'flat' earth.)

 

[Sculpt]

how does Polaris ALWAYS stay in the same spot in the sky during the earth's orbit

From your fixed location (and for many centuries), Polaris would not appear to change its place in the sky. It's less than 1 degree from being earth's north celestial pole (NCP); or in other words, it's at the pole point of our spinning sphere.

Polaris wasn't always the "north star". (This is due to precession, the wobble, a 26K year circle cycle.) In 2100 it will be its closest to the NCP and then drift off. In 1AD Kochab and Pherkad were twin "north stars", so to speak, but many more degrees off the NCP than Polaris is now. The greeks called it "dog's tail", using the full Ursa Minor constellation for navigation.

The reason Polaris appears to always be in the same spot (though not percisely) is because its distance from earth (aprx 448 light years) is aprx 14M times farther than the distance between earth on either side of the gravitational center of our galaxy (aprx 186M mi.) (We wouldn't say "on either side of the Sun", as technically the Sun and Earth both orbit around the gravitational center of our galaxy.)

To illustrate, imagine if you're standing on the left side of the two-lane road, in the middle of the super flat Majave Desert, looking down the road to the horizon where a graphed bulleye is setup. If you move to the right side of the road, would you perceive the bullseye moving its position? It's an imperceivably small measurement for the naked eye.

Does this answer make sense? If you haven't already, please view this short video from an astronomy course, as it explains the answer to your question very well. Introductory Astronomy: Motions of the Stars (youtube.com).

how does Polaris ALWAYS stay in the same spot in the sky during the earth's orbit, especially with the earth gyrating around the sun ...?

Not sure what you mean by "gyrating around the sun". I'm trying to take your question seriously. If you mean percession, that's a 26K year cycle, so obviously we would notice it, except as I noted above.

If you mean earth's axial tilt of 23 degrees off earth's orbital plane "around the Sun"... then in relation to Polaris appearing to stay in the same place, this is because the tilt is fixed. It just describes earth's spinning axis, by degrees, in relation to its solar orbital plane. So it's not a factor in observing Polaris.

how does Polaris ALWAYS stay in the same spot in the sky during the earth's orbit, especially with the earth gyrating around the sun as it flies through galaxies? There are about 68 verses in the Bible that speak of the sun being up, rising, setting, going down, etc.; but there isn't even one reference to the earth moving.

Messages are giving to the intended audience, where/who they are, same as writers write from their perspective. "To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her." Everything has context and perspective.

"Flies through the galaxies"... I'm answering this part the same way; that is, as it relates to why Polaris appears to be in the same fixed place in the night sky. The short answer is our solar system is not "whizzing by other solar systems or galaxies" over an hour, month, year, century time frame (if ever). So, a person on earth would not see Polaris move in this regard.

Even whether the earth "moves" is a contested subject simply because it's a matter of perspective, and the theory of relativity. Earth isn't moving, besides spinning, in this sense. In fact, one view of background radiation readings suggests earth is the in the center of the known universe. (More on that here: The Principle (2014 - Full Movie) (youtube.com))

Different people/astronomers have their own reasons for characterizing how the rest of the universe moves in relation to earth. It's a very complicated subject that can be described in different ways, based on perspective.
Obviously some atheists want to push what's called the "Copernican Principle" (a perspective "that humans, on the Earth are not privileged observers of the universe") because they don't like the influense of religion. There are these atheistic slants in every subject. If you reward this perspective by becoming willfully ignorant of God's stars, you're being foolish. The information in Astronomy, and most all sciences, came in a large part from Christians/theists, many of whom specifically stated their purpose of studying is for discovering the glories of God and His creation.

Nicolaus Copernicus himself wrote, “The universe has been wrought for us by a supremely good and orderly Creator.”

“Since we astronomers are priests of the highest God in regard to the book of nature, it befits us to be thoughtful, not of the glory of our minds, but rather, above all else, of the glory of God.” – Johann Kepler

I've already examined the evidence, and it makes more sense with a stationary earth.

Nobody ever finishes with the evidence regarding discovering God's creation. It's on-going. I have good reason to believe you haven't fully examined the evidence of the stars, especially with an open mind. It's a privilege to examine the stars God set as signs, if not an implied duty, especially now in relation to demonstrating beyond a reasonable doubt the earth is a spinning sphere.

There's a reason you can't see the Southern Cross constellation from North America, but Gideon300, for instance, can in Australia, and why he can't see Polaris. Will you please review this specific evidence on this specific subject before you come to a current conclusion? I'll refer you back to the info here: https://christianchat.com/conspirac...earth-proposition.213032/page-38#post-5338238

 

[Sculpt]

@Romans34 - a quick correction to my prior post above (#776) - for my third paragraph. Correction in bold. I wrote our galaxy, when I should have written our solar system. I was talking about the diameter distance of the circumference of earth's "orbit around the sun". In other words the distance between earth being on either side of the sun, so to speak. Hope that was clear.

The left or right side of the road is an analogy of the earth being on either side of the sun in it's orbit.

Thrid paragraph corrected: "The reason Polaris appears to always be in the same spot (though not percisely) is because its distance from earth (aprx 448 light years) is aprx 14M times farther than the distance between earth on either side of the gravitational center of our solar system (aprx 186M mi.) (We wouldn't say "on either side of the Sun", as technically the Sun and Earth both orbit around the gravitational center of our solar system.)"

 

[Sculpt]

@Romans34 - Another correction. My 6th paragraph should be "wouldn't notice", not "would notice".

"And another correction is "Not sure what you mean by "gyrating around the sun". I'm trying to take your question seriously. If you mean precession, that's a 26K year cycle, so obviously we wouldn't notice it, except as I noted above."

 

[Sculpt]

@Romans34 - Also, if my written explanation of Precession wasn't clear, this video below illustrates it well. It illustrates how the north celestial pole changes over time and gives the time periods. Research of the ancient astronomical records and references will confirm this.

Precession of the earth (youtube.com)

 

[Snackersmom]

Thank you, darlin' - your kind words have encouraged me... <3

As far as my time goes - I think my time on CC has-been-and-will-be "dwindling" as necessary IRL things take more of my attention.

I throw my two-cents in when I think it might be worth something to someone - and, I am delighted if God uses me to help someone.

You're welcome Mr. Gary, and I hope the IRL matters you must attend to aren't too terrible stressful or difficult. I know life has seasons and God will be with you regardless....but please know that I genuinely believe you have helped some people during your time here <3

At this moment in time, I would like to answer your question with a question - what would it mean to you if you came to the full knowledge, understanding, and belief that the Flat Earth model is true and correct? Would there be any chance at all of "hiding God" ? What about the billions of taxpayer dollars that go to NASA every year? You see - there are so many issues that hinge upon this one.

So, full disclosure here....it would take an awful lot of convincing to get me to abandon the idea of spherical Earth, because it answers all my questions. Don't get me wrong, the whole concept of sun, moon, stars, heavenly bodies, etc...... well it's definitely mind-boggling, no matter how you shape the earth. But that's the point; creation is SUPPOSED to be mind-boggling. Even just hatching baby chicks out of simple chicken eggs is mind-boggling....did you know those little suckers pop out of their shells just 3 WEEKS AFTER INCUBATION BEGINS?!?.....walking, peeping, eating, pooping...fully formed fuzzy little miracles. And that's from starting with just a 2-celled self-contained orb better known as a fertilized chicken egg.

Mind you, the Bible mentions baby chicks.....but not in the kind of detail that does the miracle justice. Sure, the Bible tells us everything we NEED to know.... but it's ok to supplement our understanding of creation with information that the writers of the Bible either didn't know or didn't feel the need to include. So I don't doubt that what is written in the Bible about the Earth, Sun, etc. is correct and what God wanted written, but I also know that God chooses to hide or "cloak" some things until an appointed time when He deems humanity ready to handle it. Anyway.......

You asked what would change for me if I came to full understanding that "Flat Earth" is correct. The answer is honestly "not much". I already believe that elected officials lie to me and waste my money. Yet I must continue rendering unto Caesar or face the consequences. I would have to give them mad props for pulling off such a vast conspiracy, though......at this point it would have to include the entire airline, shipping, and travel industries..... not to mention every space program in every country that has one.....plus every Australian I have ever met....all the science textbooks written since 1600 or so......every member of the US NAVY who was paying attention.....heck, even just any airline passenger who has noted it possible to get to China by flying either East OR West..... and I know I've missed some here. But anyway.....what I'm saying is, even if I somehow came to know that F.E. was true, I probably wouldn't even bother trying to convince anyone, would be better and easier to convince them that Jesus died for them, God loves them and He wants a relationship with them. Because THAT is something solidly worth contending for in my book.

All the best to you Mr. Gary! I do have more Flat Earth questions but I'm not sure I should ask them, I don't want to waste your time just to satisfy my own intrigue. But I will pray for His help and guidance for you in the matters that you mentioned taking up your time and focus IRL. <3

In Christ,
Nichole