Sin shall not have dominion over us that are in Christ

[PeterJens]

Philippians 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

Ephesians 2:5-6 5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

I can see we are in the heavenly places with Christ in the sense of justification,
and our citizenship which is in heaven, but this is not our spirits are in heaven in a literal
sense. Our spirits are within us, though they have a heavenly citizenship.

We would be having a constant out of body experience otherwise.
And this does not support your suggestion of our spirits are now with Christ is heaven.
If you mean our spirits are at home with Christ in who we are, fine.

 

[FlSnookman7]

I just think it means what it says...simple me.

 

[PeterJens]

I just think it means what it says...simple me.

There is a sense of language as a metaphor, so extreme it means as if, rather than literal.
So we cannot be two places at once and we are here and no on earth therefore it must be
a metaphor. That is is a simple way of understanding it.

"I am crucified with Christ" is a metaphor because Paul was not literally crucified with Christ
as Christ was crucified alone. So you understand metaphor though here you suggesting this
is not the case.

 

[Grace777x70]

We cannot grasp spiritual truths with our humanistic natural mind. This causes us to not see the new creation in Christ, the fact that we are one spirit with the Lord now. The fact that we have a new heart. The fact that the old man is dead.

The fact that we died on the cross with Christ and we rose again with Him.The fact that it is Christ Himself living in and through us. That we are created in righteousness and holiness in our inner man that is in Christ now.

Not knowing these truths causes the natural mind of man to try to make their heart righteous and pure by what "they do". It creates a works-righteousness mindset that in effect denies the work of the grace of Christ in our lives.

1 Corinthians 2:12-14 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,

[SUP]13 [/SUP] which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.

[SUP]14 [/SUP] But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

 

[FlSnookman7]

There is a sense of language as a metaphor, so extreme it means as if, rather than literal.
So we cannot be two places at once and we are here and no on earth therefore it must be
a metaphor. That is is a simple way of understanding it.

"I am crucified with Christ" is a metaphor because Paul was not literally crucified with Christ
as Christ was crucified alone. So you understand metaphor though here you suggesting this
is not the case.

There is no distance in the spiritual world. Since we are in Christ and He is in us and He is in the Father we are at least spiritually in much more than 2 places at one time. I understand why this truth bothers you, but that does not make it any less true.

 

[PeterJens]

I like Grace777 because any point where there are two interpretations he will claim his is the true spiritual one, while feeble unsaved minds cannot grasp the inner wisdom.

But it is he who has not grasped the essential issue of what righteousness is, right behaviour
and not imputed justification before God. We are deemed righteous before God through Christ
so we can actually walk righteously and not as sinners. But then as a pure legalists he failed
to walk with Christ properly so the other alternative is accept the walk is impossible and it is
just a rubber stamp exercise and that is the real gospel.

 

[PeterJens]

There is no distance in the spiritual world. Since we are in Christ and He is in us and He is in the Father we are at least spiritually in much more than 2 places at one time. I understand why this truth bothers you, but that does not make it any less true.

Ok. Why? We are not omni-present, we only exist here. So I see no support for this idea,
but I could say I live in a million parrallel universes, but only know this one, but that is actually
meaningless, because it has no way of saying it is not just invention or reality.

And what is the point? Other than to satisfy an odd interpretation of a verse, it has zero relevance.

 

[FlSnookman7]

Ok. Why? We are not omni-present, we only exist here. So I see no support for this idea,
but I could say I live in a million parrallel universes, but only know this one, but that is actually
meaningless, because it has no way of saying it is not just invention or reality.

And what is the point? Other than to satisfy an odd interpretation of a verse, it has zero relevance.

Back to doing what you always do, when you can't refute a point you attack the point maker. You have done this since I have been here and like many others I will now stop responding to you. I will still pray for you though. Goodbye.

 

[PeterJens]

Back to doing what you always do, when you can't refute a point you attack the point maker. You have done this since I have been here and like many others I will now stop responding to you. I will still pray for you though. Goodbye.

How have I attacked you? I have dealt with the point.
It appears you cannot answer the points I have made and are falsely looking for an excuse
to retreat.

I have forgotton something. Astral travel. Some claim to have visited 3rd heaven.
So I suppose being in heaven and on earth at the same time is possible, lol.

 

[PeterJens]

Observation - If people stop responding over issues, sounds like they have no confidence
in winning an argument. I suppose that is a good thing, God bless, Praise the Lord for
His grace

 

[Blain]

I know that this thread is going to be a long one and I wish what I am about to post would be enough to stop the arguing and misunderstandings of grace but even so i think it needs to be said.
people call those of us who relish and live in his grace hypergracers and believe we take advantage of his grace and think we can just live however we want with no consequences.

But let me ask everyone this If one is truly grateful for grace would they abuse it?

 

[oldethennew]

fortunately, most of don't identify with the catholic pope and believe that we are infallible..

we have our Holy Adversary interceding for us as He has promised, it's His job, so to speak...
we must go to Him when we fail Him and we must admit, speak the wrong doings that we
have done against Him...He will secure us into our Father's Grace, once we have repented -
this can only be done through our submission and acceptance of His Holy sacrifice and Holy intercession...

 

[Gr8grace]

Ok. Why? We are not omni-present, we only exist here. So I see no support for this idea,
but I could say I live in a million parrallel universes, but only know this one, but that is actually
meaningless, because it has no way of saying it is not just invention or reality.

And what is the point? Other than to satisfy an odd interpretation of a verse, it has zero relevance.

Why not deal with the odd interpretation then? Why is it odd? And not right?

What is your interpretation?

King James Bible
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Both statement's are Aorist/active/indicative. It is accomplished, and it is a dogmatic statement of truth.

 

[ladylynn]

The contradiction I usually see is when those who claim they believe in Christ do not have the faith to believe what He said about them. We are redeemed, made clean, and right now our spirits are with Jesus in Heaven. To claim we must do this or that to remain saved not only shows an utter lack of faith but it upholds the false doctrines of churches like the rcc and coc that use it to keep control of those they claim to care about. If believers in grace are a "cult" as you claim, count me in. Since paul first shared the gospel of Jesus there have been those who would debase it and attack it because it takes power away from man made institutions and gives it back to God. Since He has always had the power anyway those blinded by the false teaching of the major churches are being fooled two times. Once by their ego and once by their church. I understand how difficult it is to stop trying to control our fate and trust Jesus, I too struggled with it but once you allow yourself to have faith then and only then amazing things will occur.

This is really a good explanation. I especially like what you said;

"I understand how difficult it is to stop trying to control our fate and trust Jesus, I too struggled with it but once you allow yourself to have faith then and only then amazing things will occur."

Sooo very true. It takes a decision to first step out on the water and believe He won't allow your foot to stumble and then sink below the water. The unsaved man has every reason to fear that when he stops working., nothing will happen. The unsaved person will basically fall flat with no support from Father God since that unsaved person has no claim to the promises yet. They don't have Jesus.

Unlike us who if we intend to see the Lord working in our lives, we HAVE TO stop working and let Him work in and through us. We give up our rational and actually allow His to reform us., sort of speak.

For instance... I'm looking for a job.... The human rational says rush run work worry since if I don't succeed no one will do it for me., no one eats., no bills get paid and homelessness awaits. Now., the believer who is trusting in Jesus to take care of them...

no worry., pray in thanksgiving that He has met all my needs and will continue to do so. Go out and fill out applications, go to interviews with expectation and confidence that Jesus is leading because He promises to direct my path when He is acknowledged as my source. Don't fear just go one step at a time knowing He is directing my path.

The confidence is being lived out in life and God gives me favor with people so that even if I'm not fighting and working or worrying I'm not better than someone else but instead I'm resting in His provision for me I don't have to fight the other guy for a good job position. God is working behind the scenes for my good.

It does take those steps of faith to believe He realllly does love us and reeeallllly does care enough to not allow us to fall and sink. A tall order for many since the fall would be great. But unless we trust Him., we will never now the joy of how good our Good Shepherd really is. We won't see those amazing things occurring unless by faith we believe He loves us THAT MUCH.

 

[ladylynn]

I know that this thread is going to be a long one and I wish what I am about to post would be enough to stop the arguing and misunderstandings of grace but even so i think it needs to be said.
people call those of us who relish and live in his grace hypergracers and believe we take advantage of his grace and think we can just live however we want with no consequences.

But let me ask everyone this If one is truly grateful for grace would they abuse it?

Nope., they are too busy being amazed and thankful and enjoying those rivers of living water Jesus told us about.

 

[NarrowRoadDisciple]

Arguably, those of us who do find that Hypergrace is a different type of grace, also relish and live in His grace

I know that this thread is going to be a long one and I wish what I am about to post would be enough to stop the arguing and misunderstandings of grace but even so i think it needs to be said.
people call those of us who relish and live in his grace hypergracers and believe we take advantage of his grace and think we can just live however we want with no consequences.

But let me ask everyone this If one is truly grateful for grace would they abuse it?

 

[ladylynn]

fortunately, most of don't identify with the catholic pope and believe that we are infallible..

we have our Holy Adversary interceding for us as He has promised, it's His job, so to speak...
we must go to Him when we fail Him and we must admit, speak the wrong doings that we
have done against Him...He will secure us into our Father's Grace, once we have repented -
this can only be done through our submission and acceptance of His Holy sacrifice and Holy intercession...

​Well, the reason we are in this good situation is because Jesus has interceded for us when we accepted Him as our Savior. He is not our adversary., He is our Advocate. He forever maketh intercession for the saints because He lives after the power of an endless life.

He will ALWAYS be there making intercession for us second by second. We do not do anything to cause Him to be our Advocate. He IS because we are now in the Beloved. We can't get any more "IN" than that.

 

[PeterJens]

Why not deal with the odd interpretation then? Why is it odd? And not right?

What is your interpretation?

King James Bible
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Both statement's are Aorist/active/indicative. It is accomplished, and it is a dogmatic statement of truth.

I suppose as you are already in heaven I wonder why you bother to stick
around on earth anymore, or even have any earthly problems or issues. lol

I was thinking why Paul wrote this.
It seems he is trying to separate the earthly carnal life people used to lead,
with the spiritual, holy life they now lead, and picturing this is the heavenly
realm, but actually meaning how heaven dwells within the believer.

So rather than the spirit of the believer moves, it is heaven coming to dwell
within them. Paul does push language all the time, which makes it hard to
follow.

But if you want an out of body realisation, fine, but it is not real.

 

[AbigailZeke]

I suppose as you are already in heaven I wonder why you bother to stick
around on earth anymore, or even have any earthly problems or issues. lol

I was thinking why Paul wrote this.
It seems he is trying to separate the earthly carnal life people used to lead,
with the spiritual, holy life they now lead, and picturing this is the heavenly
realm, but actually meaning how heaven dwells within the believer.

So rather than the spirit of the believer moves, it is heaven coming to dwell
within them. Paul does push language all the time, which makes it hard to
follow.

But if you want an out of body realisation, fine, but it is not real.

You're arguing about whether or not our spirit is on earth or in heaven at this time. I don't think that belongs to this thread. This is how threads turn into unrelated banters.

 

[JGIG]

Originally Posted by FlSnookman7

We are redeemed, made clean, and right now our spirits are with Jesus in Heaven.

Where is this is scripture? Never heard our spirits are with Jesus in heaven.
Bible verses etc

It's in a rather well-known passage, PeterJens:

1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.

4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. (from Eph. 2)​

-JGIG