Sin, Sickness, and Job

[lesjude]

Just would like to point out a correction here. During the time of Job, the Throne was in Heaven, and not on Earth. It will not be on Earth until the New City Jerusalem comes to the Earth. At the time of Job, the Throne was in Heaven. satan did not go to Heaven and be at the Throne. The Lord was on Earth in those days, that is where satan spoke with the Lord, on Earth, where he is bound. Once he was cast out of Heaven, he is to never return there.

God's throne has ALWAYS been in the third heaven and will come to earth as it says in Revelation.

Are you suggesting that medicine is not of God but from satan? Could not Jesus have cured the blind man by His mere words, but He did not do that, but spit in dirt from the earth, to make a cure for the blind man. He did this very thing to show us, that things of the Earth mixed with things of God, can cure sicknesses and the such. Why did Jesus use the dirt? is it not as you say the arm of the flesh, dirt being from the Earth

ALL medicine i.e. drugs are harmful to the human body in ANY amount. Herbs and meat are only mentioned as food in the Bible never medicine. Mud and spit does not make a drug or a salve. He was putting on the squeaky clean Pharisees and making fun of the salve users.

Are not all medicines deriv.ed from the Earth as well? Yes they are. Jesus could have merely said "See" and the man would have seen. But for our benefit, He showed us that medicines are good too, that medicines (arm of the flesh as you say) mixed with Faith (the belief that Jesus healing power mixed with medicines can work) will work, because of the Faith in the medicines

Trusting both God and man to do what God promises in the meaning of the Greek verb to save is nowhere taught in the Bible. Please look up the word in Vine's Bible Dictionary for the meaning and how it is used in the OT.

i am not saying that a person can't be healed by Faith only with no medicine. It is all about the faith. A person may have Faith that Jesus will heal them without taking any medicines at all, and He does this for that person because of their Faith. Another person may have Faith that Jesus will heal them through the medicines that they take, and He does this for that person because of their Faith. Neither are wrong for both had Faith in Jesus, yes?

NO! This is not taught or practiced anywhere in the Bible. ALL drugs are poison. There are many drug induced diseases called "side effects" and ALL drugs cause them.They do not find out about long term effects until too late, all drugs have them, and they do not care! Most people are on drugs to allow them to "live" with the issue not cured.Antibiotics have serious side effect as well. Jesus is NOT a respecter of persons. NOTHING can happen to a believer unless He allows it and if He allows it they do have the faith to trust Him alone to be healed IF they chose to use it. What you are saying calls Jesus and His word a liar.

i agree with you on this statement, if we are talking about the medical system today, and not the individuals that is under that system. The medical system of today is most certainly corrupt, greedy, selfish, uncaring, and the such. But that has nothing to do with individuals that have real issues in their flesh. Tell me can a person have faith in God that there is a cure for them via medicines? yes or no?

If you do not understand what the answer is from the Bible nothing I could say would change your thinking. Try James 5:14-15.

Are you going to be the one to tell a person not to get penicillin to cure them, when it is God that brought about penicillin?

No one can tell anyone to take or not to take drugs. All one can do is point the person to what the Bible says on the issue and give them our testimony of 35 years.

We use wood (from the earth) to cook our food and make fires to stay warm in winters, and this is good, but to use a plant root to reduce a fever this is not good? God created all things on this planet, all things are good for He said it was good. Now if someone mixes ingredients of the Earth to make viruses are bio-hazard material, this would bad, yes? but how can taking things of the Earth and mixing them together in an attempt to HELP people be evil? Are life saving medicines from God or from the devil? If satan had his way, would he not kill everyone right now, and not give any unsaved person the chance to accept Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord? Tell me if a person (Saved or unsaved) takes a particular medicine and they are cured of the disease that they had, is that from God or from satan, that they were CURED?

No one would use the medical system if no one was ever helped. Enough are helped to keep sinners comfortable in their sin in Satan's kingdom and Christians convinced of the lie that Jesus gives the #3 cause of death to His bride to be stripped naked which is the FIRST thing they do, drugged, and cut up by the unsaved. Really!!! Their sin is willful ignorance or just plain run of the mill carnal unbelief.

And Jesus showed us a clear method, by taking something of the Earth mixed with something from Him to heal the blind man, correct?

No. See above.

You say you had aches and pains and even severe burns, did you use any creams at all for your burns? Aren't creams medicine? Did you take any aspirin, Tylenol, or something like that for your pain? Are they not medicines. If then you see a person who is severely burned, should you not use medicine to ease that persons pain? Or just let them suffer through the pain, knowing full well they can take some medicine to get rid of the pain.

Nothing but the blood of Jesus. He took the pain away instantly. In one case I thought that the liquid I spilled on me was not hot as I felt nothing so I put my finger in. OUCH! This is TRAINING by the Holy Spirit. You just have no concept of the gentleness and goodness of God to train His saints who will submit by grace through faith. People will ALWAYS use the physician they live closest to no matter what anyone tells them.

Are you saying that life saving surgeries are ungodly? i tell you the Truth, medicines are from God, not from satan, it is not in satans interest to help people, it is in satans interest to inflict people, not to cure them, not to help them. Medicines are from God and not from satan. Now it is True that the medical system is corrupt, and there is much wrong with that system, and all medicines should be free to anyone who needs it, or very cheap. But let us not confuse who gave us medicines and life saving operations and that is God, not satan. If they are from God and not satan, how then are they evil to use? The system may indeed be evil, but the medicines and operations that that system uses and abuses, is not evil but is from God.

Here is what God says on the issue of sickness:
James 5:14-15

New King James Version (NKJV)

14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.

Know you not that even the Tree of Life is medicine? Consider:

Revelations22:1 And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the Tree of Life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Ezekiel47:12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

If the leaf on the tree of life is medicine, how can it be said that medicine in not of God? When God Himself makes trees that are medicines.

This is for the millenial rule of Christ on the earth. All His saints will have glorified resurrection bodies that have no physical needs. These are for the nations left after the tribulation and will have need of this as it will be the only healing available. There will be none of carnal man's drugs in God's Kingdom on earth.

Dear lesjude, if your Faith is so Strong that you need not any medicines or help from the medical system, that is awsome, and wonderful. one of the gifts of the Spirit is the gift of Faith. Not everyone has that particular gift buy may have one of the other gifts

This is NOT the Holy Spirit gift of faith but the measure of faith EVERYONE receives at salvation. It is then their responsibility to grow that faith by doing what Jude 20, Romans 10:17 says and submitting to the Holy Spirit training to make it experiential in their lives James 1:2-4, Romans 5:1-5, 1 Peter 1:6-7 with 2 Peter 1:3-4

. Not everyone is at the same level of Spiritually either, for as it is written one may be on milk of the word and another on meat of the word. Clearly different levels. If your Faith is so strong that you believe you need not medicines at all, that you rely 100% on Jesus to take care of you and heal you of anything at all. That is awesome and great, would that all would have this kind of Faith. But they all do not, It is however wrong to tell others who have little faith that they should have faith as you do, when they are not at that level that you are at. If then you believe you do not need to take any medicines that is where your spiritual level is at. But another who believes that Jesus will cure them via medicines is at another level than what you are on. you are wrong to tell them to be at the level that you are on, when they have not reached that level of Faith yet. For example you said above you were healed instantly or very quickly, if this would not have happened, and you lived in aches and pain and severe burns for many years, you might not be at the level of Faith that you are at now. Being miraculously healed as you indicate plays a very huge part in where you are at spiritually in your Faith. If you weren't healed miraculously, you might not be at the spiritual level that you are now. My point is many Christians are crawling, some walking, some are running, few are flying. for one that is running, telling people they should not be crawling is not thinking about the process it takes for one to run. To run you must first crawl then walk. There is an order of things, and not everyone is running, not everyone is flying, not everyone is crawling, not everyone is walking. Everyone is at a different level and it is a process for one to reach the level that you are on, saying you trust Jesus 100% and need not any medicines or surgeries. What happens when you try to feed a baby a steak? They will not be able to swallow it or they will puke it up all over you. If you eat steak, fine, but do not try to feed steak to people who are not at that level yet.

^i^

Actually faith for healing is Christianity 101.

This is EXACTLY why I post which is tell people what is available to them by grace through faith by giving them the word and our testimony of NORMAL Christianity.They have to want it and submit to the training. Religion is the opiate of the people. Most seem to let religious systems do their thinking for them.
I asked a navy carrier pilot who taught pilots the techniques to land on carriers why some failed and some made it. He said the pilots were about equal in flying ability when he got them. The ones that made it he said were the ones that wanted it more then anything.

 

[Blain]

I have never implied it might have. Job had not sinned. God totally healed him and he will do the same for you. Ask Him for each issue one at a time in child like faith and He will meet you.

My bad i misread i thought you said these things happened because job sinned which was stupid of me because that isnt what happened.

 

[lesjude]

Lesjude said:


Satan afflicted Job. He only had the general right because of sin coming in through Adam and Eve

Not sure of what you mean, sin was passed onto Job, such as the pagan teaching of original sin.

Job was declared righteous because he simple obeyed God from his heart and did the right thing, since he was created pure, free from any passed on sin gene, with free will and ability to obey God or disobey God, one leads to righteousness the other to disqualification.

Sorry if I misunderstood your post, just wanted to clear up what you meant by sin, weather its a disease passed onto us, or a free moral choice.

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

Adam and Eve sinned which gave Satan rights on earth to do evil, one of which was to accuse God's saints. He did not have this before the fall. God of course limits Satan as He did with Job and does with all His creation including sinners.

 

[Blain]

Actually faith for healing is Christianity 101.

This is EXACTLY why I post which is tell people what is available to them by grace through faith by giving them the word and our testimony of NORMAL Christianity.They have to want it and submit to the training. Religion is the opiate of the people. Most seem to let religious systems do their thinking for them.
I asked a navy carrier pilot who taught pilots the techniques to land on carriers why some failed and some made it. He said the pilots were about equal in flying ability when he got them. The ones that made it he said were the ones that wanted it more then anything.

You know i agree with discypledave, you see i am right now crawling in my faith but i will one day fly, however if i were to not take my shots i would go into a coma medicine saved my life more than once. God was there the whole time but medicine is the reason i am alive today. Not everyone has this faith in healing that you have and i am happy for you but if you were to say to some like me to stop taking my shots and rely on god for healing what would happen if i did not have the faith to make it happen?

 

[lesjude]

There are some things you are overlooking.

Luke was a physician, and I bet he did not repent of his profession either.

Please click and read:
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/54003-luke-physician-divine-healing.html

Jesus referred to a physicain for what they were to do.

Mark 2:17When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

The context is healing from sin not sickness and Jesus is the only physician that can heal one from sin. Further Jesus IS the healer of sickness as well and would never contradict Himself and what He revealed Himself to be here which is Yahweh Rap-ha or the God who heals disease:
Exodus 15:26

New King James Version (NKJV)

26 and said, “If you diligently heed the voice of the Lord your God and do what is right in His sight, give ear to His commandments and keep all His statutes, I will put none of the diseases on you which I have brought on the Egyptians. For I am the Lord who heals you.”

We do not see Jesus ripping apart the profession of the physician at all. Yes: some suffered physicians and not got better at all and indeed, had gotten worse, but that was just testifying of their limited help.

Mark 5:25 And a certain woman, which had an issue of blood twelve years, 26 And had suffered many things of many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was nothing bettered, but rather grew worse, 27 When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment.

That is not testifying that all physicians are bad or that physicians cannot help at all. That is not testifying that anyone that goes to physicians will not get better but worse. Anyone can look around to seeing people having gotten better and recovered by going to physicians and hospitals, so do not to take a verse as if meaning that at all.

Jesus never said that in the latter days I will give my bride the #3 cause of death to be stripped naked which is the first thing they do, drugged, and cut up by the unsaved. I do not think this was an error of omission do you?

Sickness is not always a sign of sin in a person's life.

I never said it was.

Philippians 2:25 Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger, and he that ministered to my wants. 26 For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick. 27 For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow. 28 I sent him therefore the more carefully, that, when ye see him again, ye may rejoice, and that I may be the less sorrowful. 29 Receive him therefore in the Lord with all gladness; and hold such in reputation:

To believe such a thing would cause disreputation to a servant in Christ

. He was healed. What is the issue. It does not say he was sick because of sin nor have I. However one does have a responsibility to take reasonable care of his body.

There isn't always a time when one can go to the Lord for healing and get an immediate & expectant result. It does not mean Paul was lacking faith.

2 Timothy 4:19 Salute Prisca and Aquila, and the household of Onesiphorus. 20 Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.

So there should be no condemnation just because someone got sick & had died. It can happen to any believer in Christ. It does not mean lack of faith and certainly does not mean that you are limited only to God as your Good Physician.

There is NEVER a time one cannot ask and nowhere in the Bible is this taught. It does not say he died. There could have been numerous reasons for the delay. God was dealing with Trophimus on some issues. He may have wanted to teach him to believe for his own healing and not depend on Paul which is the ideal for everyone. Paul could have prayed and counted it done by faith and left on God's business. I have prayed for several that actually got worse but healing unlike miracles take time and all were healed.

Paul testified of having a thorn in the flesh that served this purpose.

2 Corinthians 12:6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me. 7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Please click and read:
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/53627-pauls-thorn-not-sickness.html

1 Corinthians 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. 23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

Weak does not mean sick.

1 Peter 3:14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled; 15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: 16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.

This is speaking of persecution not sickness. Most will do anything to avoid it. Have you ever been persecuted for bible truth? If you have not then a salvation check is in order. It is a promise to those who walk Godly in Christ.

God is not limited in His ministry as if only through healthy people.

Jesus healed ALL that came to Him. He has not changed. Hebrews 13:8

 

[BarlyGurl]

DiscipleDave "Are you suggesting that medicine is not of God but from satan?"

I didn't notice Jude answer this... but I will. Yes, SOME medicine is from SATAN, because he is the subverter and perverter of all GOOD THNGS. And most modern chemically compounded pharmaceuticals are poison as far as I am concerned. Further... people are very easily convinced to Take these "drugs" without considering where they come from, compounds or invention . Treatments using infant stem cells are outright blasphemous for the method of production but there are people who claim Christ yet entirely support this form of "medicine".

 

[lesjude]

You know i agree with discypledave, you see i am right now crawling in my faith but i will one day fly, however if i were to not take my shots i would go into a coma medicine saved my life more than once. God was there the whole time but medicine is the reason i am alive today. Not everyone has this faith in healing that you have and i am happy for you but if you were to say to some like me to stop taking my shots and rely on god for healing what would happen if i did not have the faith to make it happen?

Ask the Lord to train you in faith for healing. Start with something like a headache.
Here are the principles of faith for healing and scripture:

It is always Jesus' will to heal, no exceptions, only conditions and these are easily met by grace through faith. II Cor. 1:20

Exodus 15:26 The condition is to be obedient to the truth we have and a heart to learn more. God does not put the sickness on us but allows it for disobedience or for the following reasons: I Peter 1:7, James 1:2-4, Romans 5:3-5.
Please be aware of I Cor 10:13. One way is to use you supernatural prayer language. Jude 20.

Psalm 107:20 The condition is to know Jesus loves you enough to heal you every time because He and His word are the same! The Centurion Matthew 8:5-13 understood this and the authority of the word. We have the same authority to speak that word over ourselves and others! See Matt 8:5-13. So speak I Peter 2:24 over yourself. Proverbs 4:20-23 and Proverbs 18:21. It was ALREADY accomplished 2000 years ago. Isaiah 53:1-12. In verse 4 the words griefs and sorrows should be sickness and pains. This is explained in Matt. 8:16-17. The tense of 'fulfilled' means ongoing. See Hebrews 13:8. Jesus heals today!
Mark 11:23-24. Note the tenses: believe you receive is present and future: you shall have it. Bible faith is defined in Hebrews 11:1 and simply is BELIEVING (present tense) in your heart based on God's word is seeing (future tense), not seeing is believing. You have to believe Jesus hears you the first time you pray on the basis of 1 John 5:14-15 so Bible faith only has to ask once for a clear promise. Your 'mountain' is what you have are believing for. One of the conditions to "move the mountain" is Mark 11:25-26. Make sure you have NO unforgiveness in you heart!

Here are two case studies of how faith works: II Kings 4:8-37. Note the words that came out of her mouth as to what she was believing for. "It is well!"

The other is the 12 spies in Numbers 13 and 14. Note what Caleb and Joshua said when ALL the facts and evidence were against God's promise. Do not let the 'facts' of your situation contradict God's truth in I Peter 2:24!

Here are the scriptures that I gave a lady who took them like medicine and was healed of terminal cancer after the demon of cancer was cast out: All are in Matthew: 8:16-17, 9:35, 10:1, 12:15, 14:14, 14:35-36, 15:29-31, 19:1-2, 21:14. The point is Jesus is still willing to heal all who come to Him. The main condition is coming in faith (see Hebrews chapter 11). Jesus will also show you how to act your faith as all did in Hebrews 11. See James 2:18-26. All acted their faith.
If you have ANY questions please ask.

 

[zone]

Here are the scriptures that I gave a lady who took them like medicine and was healed of terminal cancer after the demon of cancer was cast out

1) how do you know it was terminal? a doctor said so?
2) cancer is demon?
3) could we have her name and contact info so we can verify your claim? if what you say is true, she'd be happy to testify.

n.m: you won't.

4) could we have your name and verification of all your claims? if what you say is true, you'd be happy to provide all that evidence.

 

[DiscipleDave]

Adam and Eve sinned which gave Satan rights on earth to do evil, one of which was to accuse God's saints. He did not have this before the fall. God of course limits Satan as He did with Job and does with all His creation including sinners.

satan had rights to sin BEFORE Adam and EVE sinned, for it was satan that was tempting her to eat of the fruit, before she committed the sin of eating it. satan was sinning in the very act of tempting them to disobey God. satan sinned in Heaven, and was cast to the Earth. God created humans on the Earth where also satan was cast too. God allowed satan in the Garden to do what he does best.
For more information of why God allowed satan in the Garden of Eden to begin with can be found HERE.

^i^