sinless? or sinning less.

[michael56]

Good question and I appreciate this kind of debate. I know exactly where you're coming from and I would be asking the same questions if I thought Paul was "sold as a slave to sin". But the verse doesn't say that he was sold as a slave to sin, it says he was sold under sin. Every word in the bible matters and we can't make them say something that they don't say.

What does it mean to be sold under sin? Paul at some time in his life was bought by someone... when that person bought Paul, Paul was under sin. So the question is - who bought Paul?

1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

I have to see if you agree with this before I continue.

I am afraid I do not agree. I think the NIV is considered a very good translation, scholars from all over the world took 15 years to comply my edition of it. However, I will turn to the KJV in response initially:

For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin verse ch7:14 kjv

For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.[SUP]7 [/SUP]Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God Rom 8:6-8 KJV

All over the place the Paul of Romans 7 contradicts the rest of his writings.




Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? [SUP]17 [/SUP]But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. Rom 6:16-18 NIV

Notice in the above, Paul tells the romans they used to be slaves to sin, but they obeyed the form of teaching they had been given(the Gospel of grace Paul preached) and were set free from sin(being slaves of sin, where sin dominated their lives) and became slaves of righteousness(which leads to holiness verse19)

So by following Paul's Gospel message the romans will not be slaves to sin, this concurs with romans 6:14

In romans 7:14-25 Paul definitely was speaking of being a slave to sin

We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin verse 14

For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do verse 15

For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. verses 18&19

Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; [SUP]23 [/SUP]but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me verses 21-23

I see no point in continuing this. The case is proved as far as I am concerned. However, I am sure no matter what I write you will not accept it, so I think it would be best to leave it there.

 

[KJV1611]

I am afraid I do not agree. I think the NIV is considered a very good translation, scholars from all over the world took 15 years to comply my edition of it. However, I will turn to the KJV in response initially:

For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin verse ch7:14 kjv

For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.[SUP]7 [/SUP]Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God Rom 8:6-8 KJV

All over the place the Paul of Romans 7 contradicts the rest of his writings.




Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? [SUP]17 [/SUP]But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. Rom 6:16-18 NIV

Notice in the above, Paul tells the romans they used to be slaves to sin, but they obeyed the form of teaching they had been given(the Gospel of grace Paul preached) and were set free from sin(being slaves of sin, where sin dominated their lives) and became slaves of righteousness(which leads to holiness verse19)

So by following Paul's Gospel message the romans will not be slaves to sin, this concurs with romans 6:14

In romans 7:14-25 Paul definitely was speaking of being a slave to sin

We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin verse 14

For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do verse 15

For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. verses 18&19

Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; [SUP]23 [/SUP]but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me verses 21-23

I see no point in continuing this. The case is proved as far as I am concerned. However, I am sure no matter what I write you will not accept it, so I think it would be best to leave it there.

Both the KVJ and the NIV say sold under sin. So who sold Paul and who bought him?

 

[michael56]

Both the KVJ and the NIV say sold under sin. So who sold Paul and who bought him?

The following is what the NIV states on bible gateway, and also in my edition of the NIV

We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.


In my own life I have at times let God down badly. But I have learnt two things are needed in order to come close let us say to Paul's message of Rom 6:14

You have to in your heart put God first and yield to what he wants from your life, and you have to understand the Gospel message of grace.

If you do not have those two things, you will in all probability lean towards the Paul of Rom 7:14-25 speaking of his life as a mature Christian.

 

[KJV1611]

The following is what the NIV states on bible gateway, and also in my edition of the NIV

We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.


In my own life I have at times let God down badly. But I have learnt two things are needed in order to come close let us say to Paul's message of Rom 6:14

You have to in your heart put God first and yield to what he wants from your life, and you have to understand the Gospel message of grace.

If you do not have those two things, you will in all probability lean towards the Paul of Rom 7:14-25 speaking of his life as a mature Christian.

You are right the NIV does say slave to sin... I was looking at the ESV. So which bible is right, was Paul sold under sin or sold as a slave to sin?

Have you ever sinned since you put God first in your heart?

 

[gotime]

You are right the NIV does say slave to sin... I was looking at the ESV. So which bible is right, was Paul sold under sin or sold as a slave to sin?

Have you ever sinned since you put God first in your heart?

Both are the same, If you are sold under something then that something is your master. The language the continues is one who wants to do one thing but is forced to do another by sin. in fact near the end He says he wills to do the right thing but he is captive to the law of sin.

It is all slave language. both are saying the same thing.

 

[gotime]

It is important to know that Paul sets up the context of both the Romans 7 man and the Romans 8 man prior to explaining both.

Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

This is the Romans 7 man that he explains, you will notice that all the elemants are in this verse of the Romans 7 man and the tense is past tense "were in the flesh".

Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Here is the Romans 8 man and all the elements of this verse are found in chapter 8. Notice the present tense, "are delivered from the law"

How Paul words things can be confusing so it is important to take in all the context. Romans 6 has set some realities also that inform Romans 7 and 8:

 

[deacon_mo]

I think its possible to not be a sinner rather than to live without sin. Being a sinner means you practice the sin or sins just as a player practices hisher sport or what have you. While I do think sins that require action should be controllable but sins of the heart are far less manageable

 

[gotime]

I think its possible to not be a sinner rather than to live without sin. Being a sinner means you practice the sin or sins just as a player practices hisher sport or what have you. While I do think sins that require action should be controllable but sins of the heart are far less manageable

That is why Jesus gives us a new heart.

 

[KJV1611]

Both are the same, If you are sold under something then that something is your master. The language the continues is one who wants to do one thing but is forced to do another by sin. in fact near the end He says he wills to do the right thing but he is captive to the law of sin.

It is all slave language. both are saying the same thing.

Or it could mean that Paul was sold while he was still a sinner. I don't think it matters either way because everybody has a sin nature... even Christians. We all still sin. But, sin is not the master of the Christian because the woman is not bound to the law of husband if her husband be dead.

 

[gotime]

Or it could mean that Paul was sold while he was still a sinner. I don't think it matters either way because everybody has a sin nature... even Christians. We all still sin. But, sin is not the master of the Christian because the woman is not bound to the law of husband if her husband be dead.

I agree that is the point the Romans 7 person still is under the law of sin, not yet freed from the Husband but you will notice that the change comes when Christ is mentioned in the passage near the end. then in chapter 8 the person is free from the law of sin in which the person in Romans 7 was not. why cause Christ condemned sin in the flesh in which the law could not do.

 

[SoulWeaver]

I think its possible to not be a sinner rather than to live without sin. Being a sinner means you practice the sin or sins just as a player practices hisher sport or what have you. While I do think sins that require action should be controllable but sins of the heart are far less manageable

You are so right on the bolded that it's unreal...You never see certain people talk about sins of the heart, because they are so preoccupied with the outward appearance and works. This is why.

Matthew 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

 

[KJV1611]

I agree that is the point the Romans 7 person still is under the law of sin, not yet freed from the Husband but you will notice that the change comes when Christ is mentioned in the passage near the end. then in chapter 8 the person is free from the law of sin in which the person in Romans 7 was not. why cause Christ condemned sin in the flesh in which the law could not do.

Hey gotime do you want to do a verse by verse discussion of chapter 7?

 

[gotime]

Hey gotime do you want to do a verse by verse discussion of chapter 7?

If you want sounds like a sound and good Idea maybe we can learn from each other. you start it.

 

[KJV1611]

If you want sounds like a sound and good Idea maybe we can learn from each other. you start it.

Thanks... If we disagree, we just agree to disagree lol.

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

In as short of answer as you can, why do you think the law has dominion over a man so long as he lives?

 

[gotime]

Thanks... If we disagree, we just agree to disagree lol.

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

In as short of answer as you can, why do you think the law has dominion over a man so long as he lives?

The law demands death of anyone who sins, it demands complete continual uninhibited obedience. As long as We live we are under these demands.

Key point As long as "he lives" This insinuates a death of the person who is under the dominion of the law is free from the dominion of the law.

 

[KJV1611]

The law demands death of anyone who sins, it demands complete continual uninhibited obedience. As long as We live we are under these demands.

Key point As long as "he lives" This insinuates a death of the person who is under the dominion of the law is free from the dominion of the law.

I almost agree with you! I think my only difference would be in the definition of "who/what" dies. In my opinion the "who/what" that dies is the flesh because our flesh is crucified with Christ.... then it is no longer us that lives, but Christ in us. I believe Paul goes on to expound on this in the next few verses.

Gal_5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Gal_2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

 

[gotime]

I almost agree with you! I think my only difference would be in the definition of "who/what" dies. In my opinion the "who/what" that dies is the flesh because our flesh is crucified with Christ.... then it is no longer us that lives, but Christ in us. I believe Paul goes on to expound on this in the next few verses.

Gal_5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Gal_2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Yes I agree with you, I was trying to not go outside the text but you are right even Romans 6 teaches this:

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

and 8:

Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

 

[KJV1611]

Yes I agree with you, I was trying to not go outside the text but you are right even Romans 6 teaches this:

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

and 8:

Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Great! Now let's take that info into verse 2.

Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

A little supporting scripture.

Psa_34:2 My soul shall make her boast in the LORD: the humble shall hear thereof, and be glad.

Our soul is considered to be a woman in the bible. Now apply Psa_34:2 and Galatians 5:24 to verse 2.

A woman (the soul) is bound by the law to her husband as long as her husband (flesh) lives. But if the husband (flesh) is dead (crucified with Christ).... this is important... the woman (soul) is loosed from the law of her husband (flesh). The law is for the flesh, not the soul. The only reason the soul is bound to the law is because the soul is married to the flesh. When God first showed me that, man it blew me away! That understanding unlocks so many other passages in the bible. Again, if you don't agree, we will agree to disagree and keep going.

 

[gotime]

Great! Now let's take that info into verse 2.

Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

A little supporting scripture.

Psa_34:2 My soul shall make her boast in the LORD: the humble shall hear thereof, and be glad.

Our soul is considered to be a woman in the bible. Now apply Psa_34:2 and Galatians 5:24 to verse 2.

A woman (the soul) is bound by the law to her husband as long as her husband (flesh) lives. But if the husband (flesh) is dead (crucified with Christ).... this is important... the woman (soul) is loosed from the law of her husband (flesh). The law is for the flesh, not the soul. The only reason the soul is bound to the law is because the soul is married to the flesh. When God first showed me that, man it blew me away! That understanding unlocks so many other passages in the bible. Again, if you don't agree, we will agree to disagree and keep going.

We agree so far.

 

[Pumicestone]

Not sure Paul was converted to Christianity, Michael. Many would say he created it !

Yeshua (Jesus) was a devout Jew who had never heard of "Christianity".
He would have been appalled (or a-Pauled ?) at the suggestion that he was god or any part of God. Sheer blasphemy.

But Paul dreamed up this idea, wrote a whole bunch of stuff from which the 'gospels' later sprang - written by people who had certainly never met JC.
Then, good ole Emperor Constantine saw great political value in hitching his waggon to the star and hey presto ..... Christianity !

Assuming that Paul's account of events is accurate (as we now have it), there could quite easily have been a small group of Nazarenes (or Nazoreans) developing a Yeshua cult at Antioch.
Then along comes the charismatic Paul and spends a year with them.
At some stage, they start using the term 'Christians'.
Or others thus describe them.
Bit hard to know which came first. It is unclear and hardly important.

But you're right about the fledgling "Catholic" church predating Constantine.
It was his power and authority and 'marketing skills' which created the boom though.
And his lackeys and appointees who developed the 'cannon' for HIS revision and approval.

No fun playing 'Devil's Advocate' in here if nobody's gonna play .......