sinless? or sinning less.

[michael56]

How would one become a Christian without being first made aware that adultery is sin?

You can't call someone to repent if they have no idea what to repent of.

So you would believe a person cannot become a Christian unless they know committing adultery is sin, but they can become a Christian without understanding taking the Lord's name in vain is a sin?

BTW

How would they be made aware adultery is sin in order to become a Christian?

 

[gotime]

So you would believe a person cannot become a Christian unless they know committing adultery is sin, but they can become a Christian without understanding taking the Lord's name in vain is a sin?

BTW

How would they be made aware adultery is sin in order to become a Christian?

No not exactly, many know that taking the name of the Lord in vain is sin but some do not know that saying the things you said that they said are taking His name in vain.

How? the law points out sin so I would do exactly what Paul does in Romans start with the law so that they can see they fall short and know what sin is. then they have a need for salvation in Christ.

 

[michael56]

No not exactly, many know that taking the name of the Lord in vain is sin but some do not know that saying the things you said that they said are taking His name in vain.

How? the law points out sin so I would do exactly what Paul does in Romans start with the law so that they can see they fall short and know what sin is. then they have a need for salvation in Christ.

Immediatley I became a Christian I knew taking the Lord's name in vain was sin, and that included the use of the terms I originally mentioned. However, I know of people who insist all Ten on the Ten commandments are kept in order to attain Heaven who regularly take the Lords name in vain. These are people who have been baptised in water and are church members, and in some cases hold places of responsibility in the church.
So you believe in order for a person to become conscious of their sin, they must read the literal words of scripture to know that? Do you not believe the law God requires a person to keep has been placed on the heart and written on the mind of the convert? If this is true, why would a person need to read the literal letter to become sin conscious?

 

[haz]

No I am sorry but that is not true, Christians do not commit physical or spiritual adultery. that is what unsaved people do.

Christians should not commit physical, nor spiritual adultery.
Sadly spiritual adultery is common as there are those who mix works of the law, with grace. Such are into spiritual adultery with Hagar, who is symbolic for righteousness by works of the law, Gal; 4:24.

As for physical adultery, why are you judging such as lost? Who made you a judge (James 4:12)?
For example, how many Christians do you know who were divorcees and then married another (adultery, as described in Mark 10:11,12)? Are you truly saying that they're lost?

In a previous post you claimed you speak of "full overcoming".


Was the thief on the cross not a full overcomer? After all he had no works of the law to support his case, yet perfect physical obedience to the law is the basis that you claim to judge how one is deemed a full overcomer.
Now consider how scripture defines a full overcomer, 1John 5:5, Rev 12:11.

1John 5:5
Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

Rev 12:11
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.


You said "If a person who is not under the law can not be charged with sin when they sin then what Paul said is meaningless. but if one can be charged when not under the law then what Paul said has much meaning:"

What you say here contradicts scripture.
Whatever the law says it says to those under it, Rom 3:19.


Are you under the jurisdiction of the laws of Saudi Arabia?
Can you be charged for transgressing their Sharia law?
No, you CANNOT be charged because whatever their Sharia law says, it says to those in that country who are under it.


So what is Paul saying in Rom 6, that you're missing?
For Christians, our physical man is already dead (by faith, crucified with Christ, Rom 6:6) because of sin, Rom 8:10.
We have thus become dead to the law, Rom 7:4.
And being physically dead (by faith, Rom 6:6, Rom 8:10) we're freed from sin, Rom 6:7. We cannot be charged (Rom 8:33) with sin/transgression of the law that we're not under (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:25, Gal 5:18).


As I said before, Christians are spiritual. We now keep the spiritual law, Rom 7:14.
Now try to look at the law in spiritual terms, as a spiritual person should.


Christian do not commit spiritual adultery with Hagar, who is symbolic for righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24. That is we do not mix works of the law, with grace, Rom 11:6.


We do not spiritually kill. Consider for example that Christ is our brother.
Matt 12:50
For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven ( believe on Jesus, John 6:40) is My brother and sister and mother.”


Now what did Cain do to his brother?
1John 3:12
not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous.


Note how Cain (symbolic for the flesh) slew Able ( symbolic for the spiritual) because his own (physical dead works under the law) works were evil ( unrighteous/filthy rags), and his brother's (Christ in us, Matt 12:50) were good.


If we're determining our righteousness/holiness/sinlessness by the measure of perfect physical obedience to the law, then we're rejecting what Christ (our brother) in us has already done for us.
And by rejecting Christ we spiritually kill our brother (as Cain did) so that the flesh rules and not the spirit. By rejecting Christ (by mixing works of the law, with grace) we show that we hate Christ our brother (1John 2:9) and are thus walking in darkness.


Paul was blameless under the law (Phil 3:6) but he rejected these dead works (filthy rags), considering them to be dung (Phil 3:8,9), so that through Christ (his brother, Matt 12:50) he can receive the righteousness which is from God by faith.


Consider also the spiritual view of honor your father and mother.
Christians keep this spiritual command also.
God is our spiritual Father, and (spiritual) Jerusalem above is our spiritual mother, Gal 4:26.
To honor our spiritual Father and mother we thus do not rebel by preaching that physical works of the law (dung/filthy rags) are required for one to be righteous/holy/sinless, or even an overcomer. Instead we submit to God's righteousness (Rom 10:3).


You claim that when a Christian sins then they bring sin into Christ because a Christian abides in Christ. But this contradicts 1John 3:5 which states that there is no sin in Christ.


You said: .
When I see a "christian" who breaks Gods law then I know either they are not really a Christian or they are ignorant of some truths, either way the issue is fixed by making them aware of the truths they are missing.

Now most here have heard numerous times here on CC the argument for keeping the physical Sabbath. Yet most Christians here reject this as it's not supported in scripture. Are you thus claiming that we're not really Christians because we have often been made aware of the argument for keeping the physical Sabbath and yet reject it still?


You said: .
Did you miss the fact that those verses said, "can not sin", "does not sin", "ceased from sin" If you sin then you do not fit these texts at all. I do not make a mockery of Gods word by calling light darkness and darkness light. Sin is sin no matter how you dice it.
Do you not know that obedience/action is always connected with that word? Do not reduce belief to some fanciful nothing. Because that is what it seems you are doing. If you do not do the things the Lord says then you do not believe but are in unbelief.


here you contradict yourself.
You said earlier that you do not claim a Christian is lost and in unbelief when they sin.
Yet your quote above contradicts this by accusing Christians of being in unbelief.
BTW, you said:
" those verses said, "can not sin", "does not sin", "ceased from sin" If you sin then you do not fit these texts at all".


Now as 1John 3:8 says that he who sins is of the devil, then I conclude you are claiming that all here who do not obey the law perfectly are of the devil.


In answering this I remind you of what you said in that same paragraph of yours:
"I do not make a mockery of Gods word by calling light darkness and darkness light. Sin is sin no matter how you dice it"


so how do you dice it now that you accuse Christians who sin of being of the devil?


You contradict yourself with claims that Christians are not lost/unbelief when they sin, but then you say they are lost/unbelief/darkness when they sin.

 

[gotime]

Immediatley I became a Christian I knew taking the Lord's name in vain was sin, and that included the use of the terms I originally mentioned. However, I know of people who insist all Ten on the Ten commandments are kept in order to attain Heaven who regularly take the Lords name in vain. These are people who have been baptised in water and are church members, and in some cases hold places of responsibility in the church.
So you believe in order for a person to become conscious of their sin, they must read the literal words of scripture to know that? Do you not believe the law God requires a person to keep has been placed on the heart and written on the mind of the convert? If this is true, why would a person need to read the literal letter to become sin conscious?

But then you are saying that anyone who does not have the same conviction as you is not born again are you not?

I also know of many people who know to keep the 10 commandments and do not. They are worse of than those who do not believe the 10 can be kept. (and yes I know that does not bode well for many Seventh Day Adventists) Few in our church are converted, few know Christ. many are legalists etc. but what they are has no baring on truth.

as to reading the words of Scripture they must be told some how?

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Why preach at all if its just put on our hearts.

I think the problem here is you are simply reading the letter when it comes to the law written on the heart. its not literal its a spiritual truth. But the question is how does that truth come to be?

2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

Notice they are letters Ministered by who? the apostles. The Apostles taught them first and the Spirit through the word wrote it in their hearts. its a picture not a literal letter. When the truth was heard faith activated and the Spirit changed them.

It seems to me that in this you read the literal letter but miss the spiritual reality.

Just in case any of this sounds harsh I am not trying to be so forgive me if it comes across that way.

 

[michael56]

But then you are saying that anyone who does not have the same conviction as you is not born again are you not?

I also know of many people who know to keep the 10 commandments and do not. They are worse of than those who do not believe the 10 can be kept. (and yes I know that does not bode well for many Seventh Day Adventists) Few in our church are converted, few know Christ. many are legalists etc. but what they are has no baring on truth.

as to reading the words of Scripture they must be told some how?

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Why preach at all if its just put on our hearts.

I think the problem here is you are simply reading the letter when it comes to the law written on the heart. its not literal its a spiritual truth. But the question is how does that truth come to be?

2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

Notice they are letters Ministered by who? the apostles. The Apostles taught them first and the Spirit through the word wrote it in their hearts. its a picture not a literal letter. When the truth was heard faith activated and the Spirit changed them.

It seems to me that in this you read the literal letter but miss the spiritual reality.

Just in case any of this sounds harsh I am not trying to be so forgive me if it comes across that way.

I am off to church now, wil respond when I return

 

[gotime]

Christians should not commit physical, nor spiritual adultery.
Sadly spiritual adultery is common as there are those who mix works of the law, with grace. Such are into spiritual adultery with Hagar, who is symbolic for righteousness by works of the law, Gal; 4:24.

As for physical adultery, why are you judging such as lost? Who made you a judge (James 4:12)?
For example, how many Christians do you know who were divorcees and then married another (adultery, as described in Mark 10:11,12)? Are you truly saying that they're lost?

In a previous post you claimed you speak of "full overcoming".


Was the thief on the cross not a full overcomer? After all he had no works of the law to support his case, yet perfect physical obedience to the law is the basis that you claim to judge how one is deemed a full overcomer.
Now consider how scripture defines a full overcomer, 1John 5:5, Rev 12:11.

1John 5:5
Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

Rev 12:11
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.


You said "If a person who is not under the law can not be charged with sin when they sin then what Paul said is meaningless. but if one can be charged when not under the law then what Paul said has much meaning:"

What you say here contradicts scripture.
Whatever the law says it says to those under it, Rom 3:19.


Are you under the jurisdiction of the laws of Saudi Arabia?
Can you be charged for transgressing their Sharia law?
No, you CANNOT be charged because whatever their Sharia law says, it says to those in that country who are under it.


So what is Paul saying in Rom 6, that you're missing?
For Christians, our physical man is already dead (by faith, crucified with Christ, Rom 6:6) because of sin, Rom 8:10.
We have thus become dead to the law, Rom 7:4.
And being physically dead (by faith, Rom 6:6, Rom 8:10) we're freed from sin, Rom 6:7. We cannot be charged (Rom 8:33) with sin/transgression of the law that we're not under (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:25, Gal 5:18).


As I said before, Christians are spiritual. We now keep the spiritual law, Rom 7:14.
Now try to look at the law in spiritual terms, as a spiritual person should.


Christian do not commit spiritual adultery with Hagar, who is symbolic for righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24. That is we do not mix works of the law, with grace, Rom 11:6.


We do not spiritually kill. Consider for example that Christ is our brother.
Matt 12:50
For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven ( believe on Jesus, John 6:40) is My brother and sister and mother.”


Now what did Cain do to his brother?
1John 3:12
not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous.


Note how Cain (symbolic for the flesh) slew Able ( symbolic for the spiritual) because his own (physical dead works under the law) works were evil ( unrighteous/filthy rags), and his brother's (Christ in us, Matt 12:50) were good.


If we're determining our righteousness/holiness/sinlessness by the measure of perfect physical obedience to the law, then we're rejecting what Christ (our brother) in us has already done for us.
And by rejecting Christ we spiritually kill our brother (as Cain did) so that the flesh rules and not the spirit. By rejecting Christ (by mixing works of the law, with grace) we show that we hate Christ our brother (1John 2:9) and are thus walking in darkness.


Paul was blameless under the law (Phil 3:6) but he rejected these dead works (filthy rags), considering them to be dung (Phil 3:8,9), so that through Christ (his brother, Matt 12:50) he can receive the righteousness which is from God by faith.


Consider also the spiritual view of honor your father and mother.
Christians keep this spiritual command also.
God is our spiritual Father, and (spiritual) Jerusalem above is our spiritual mother, Gal 4:26.
To honor our spiritual Father and mother we thus do not rebel by preaching that physical works of the law (dung/filthy rags) are required for one to be righteous/holy/sinless, or even an overcomer. Instead we submit to God's righteousness (Rom 10:3).


You claim that when a Christian sins then they bring sin into Christ because a Christian abides in Christ. But this contradicts 1John 3:5 which states that there is no sin in Christ.


You said: .
When I see a "christian" who breaks Gods law then I know either they are not really a Christian or they are ignorant of some truths, either way the issue is fixed by making them aware of the truths they are missing.

Now most here have heard numerous times here on CC the argument for keeping the physical Sabbath. Yet most Christians here reject this as it's not supported in scripture. Are you thus claiming that we're not really Christians because we have often been made aware of the argument for keeping the physical Sabbath and yet reject it still?


You said: .
Did you miss the fact that those verses said, "can not sin", "does not sin", "ceased from sin" If you sin then you do not fit these texts at all. I do not make a mockery of Gods word by calling light darkness and darkness light. Sin is sin no matter how you dice it.
Do you not know that obedience/action is always connected with that word? Do not reduce belief to some fanciful nothing. Because that is what it seems you are doing. If you do not do the things the Lord says then you do not believe but are in unbelief.


here you contradict yourself.
You said earlier that you do not claim a Christian is lost and in unbelief when they sin.
Yet your quote above contradicts this by accusing Christians of being in unbelief.
BTW, you said:
" those verses said, "can not sin", "does not sin", "ceased from sin" If you sin then you do not fit these texts at all".


Now as 1John 3:8 says that he who sins is of the devil, then I conclude you are claiming that all here who do not obey the law perfectly are of the devil.


In answering this I remind you of what you said in that same paragraph of yours:
"I do not make a mockery of Gods word by calling light darkness and darkness light. Sin is sin no matter how you dice it"


so how do you dice it now that you accuse Christians who sin of being of the devil?


You contradict yourself with claims that Christians are not lost/unbelief when they sin, but then you say they are lost/unbelief/darkness when they sin.

I do not contradict myself. The supposed contradiction is in your applying your understanding to my view. You have misunderstood my points you apply them further than even I do.

Blessings.

 

[gotime]

I am off to church now, wil respond when I return

Have Fun talk later.

 

[MikkoAinasoja]

What are your thoughts on sinless perfection? Can a person become sinless in this life?

Yes we can, and we should be able to live without sinning.

But sadly this is not they way of today's chritianity, like it is predicted, that last time's man will grow far away from God's will, and it has happen already.

Of course the man will not admit the bad situation, what we have here, like the pharisees in time when our Lord was in flesh, they claim all that they do follow God's will, even though they won't as we all know today.

Today's church do not teach the real way of our Lord.

 

[KJV1611]

Yes we can, and we should be able to live without sinning.

But sadly this is not they way of today's chritianity, like it is predicted, that last time's man will grow far away from God's will, and it has happen already.

Of course the man will not admit the bad situation, what we have here, like the pharisees in time when our Lord was in flesh, they claim all that they do follow God's will, even though they won't as we all know today.

Today's church do not teach the real way of our Lord.

Hi Mikko. Do you know any sinless people?

 

[haz]

I do not contradict myself. The supposed contradiction is in your applying your understanding to my view. You have misunderstood my points you apply them further than even I do.

Regarding your contradictions, note your 2 quotes below.

Christians do not commit physical or spiritual adultery. that is what unsaved people do.

. I do not accuse or put in unbelief because people slip up

So which is it?
You say that Christians do not commit physical adultery as that is what unsaved people do.
But then you say that Christians who slip up are not in unbelief.

BTW, I know of Adventists who were divorcees who married another.
What is that called in Mark 10:11,12
He said to them, “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her. And if a woman divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery.”

Are these Adventists unsaved/adulterers?

BTW, can you answer my earlier question?

In a previous post you claimed you speak of "full overcoming".

Was the thief on the cross not a full overcomer? After all he had no works of the law to support his case, yet perfect physical obedience to the law is the basis that you claim to judge how one is deemed a full overcomer.
Now consider how scripture defines a full overcomer, 1John 5:5, Rev 12:11.

1John 5:5
Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

Rev 12:11
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

 

[michael56]

But then you are saying that anyone who does not have the same conviction as you is not born again are you not?

Quite simply, whatever law God has written on your mind and placed on your heart by the Spirit you must be aware of. Through the law you become conscious of sin. Therefore, you must have heartfelt conviction of sin where the law placed within you is concerned.
I also know of many people who know to keep the 10 commandments and do not. They are worse of than those who do not believe the 10 can be kept. (and yes I know that does not bode well for many Seventh Day Adventists) Few in our church are converted, few know Christ. many are legalists etc. but what they are has no baring on truth.

I don't understand people focusing on the literal words of the Ten Commanmdents, the law God requires you to keep is within you.

as to reading the words of Scripture they must be told some how?

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Why preach at all if its just put on our hearts.

The point of discussion is not if the message of the Gospel should be preached, but that the law God requires you to keep is instinctively known to you, two completely different things.

I think the problem here is you are simply reading the letter when it comes to the law written on the heart. its not literal its a spiritual truth. But the question is how does that truth come to be?

No! I only had the literal letter until I was 19, and that literal letter condemned me. As Paul said: The letter kills but the Spirit gives life. I am in a good position to know when I was and if I am now lead of the letter

2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

Notice they are letters Ministered by who? the apostles. The Apostles taught them first and the Spirit through the word wrote it in their hearts. its a picture not a literal letter. When the truth was heard faith activated and the Spirit changed them.

Again, there is no disagreement that the message needs to be preached, but once it is accepted, the Spirit writes the law God would have a person to keep in their mind and places it on their heart.

It seems to me that in this you read the literal letter but miss the spiritual reality.


I miss the spiritual reality by believing once the message had been preached and accepted the Spirit writes the law on the mind and places it on the heart of the individual? That is the spiritiual reality.

Just in case any of this sounds harsh I am not trying to be so forgive me if it comes across that way.

There is nothing to forgive. I go to a church once a week that is not my own. I am just being honest here. The overriding impression I get is, the Holy Spirit is not there in the fullness available, it seems like a void, something is missing. To ne fair, I would not simply feel that way as to the church I am speaking of.
As I said earlier, I know what it is to simply follow the letter, I did so for many years.
The problem is, many do not understand what being born again entails/the result of this happening. No truly born again person of the Holy Spirit could be convinced they never sin, that would not be possible, someone who simply has the literal letter may convince themselves of that. For as I mentioned earlier, many speak of obeying literal laws/commandments and the need to obey them, but do not know it seems when they break them, so to them, they might be sinless also.

 

[MikkoAinasoja]

Hi Mikko. Do you know any sinless people?

8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:8-9)

If we live our lives according to God's will, he will make us pure for sinning.

I don't do sin anymore.

 

[KJV1611]

8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:8-9)

If we live our lives according to God's will, he will make us pure for sinning.

I don't do sin anymore.

When did you stop sinning? How many years ago?

 

[MikkoAinasoja]

When did you stop sinning? How many years ago?

Don't you think that the right question is how, more that when?

I have give my life and everything to God.

 

[KJV1611]

Don't you think that the right question is how, more that when?

I have give my life and everything to God.

I'm more interested in understanding how you escaped the law of sin which is in your members... Even Paul couldn't do it, how is it that you can?

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[MikkoAinasoja]

When did you stop sinning? How many years ago?

This all has not happen so long time ago, but separation has happen, and I know that now.

There was period of time, when I was praying forgiveness for the unnecessary sin's or what I thought was a sin, but it was just something from the past life, like our dear brother Paul also writes, about the sin which was hanging on him, or the feeling's of the sin.

 

[MikkoAinasoja]

I'm more interested in understanding how you escaped the law of sin which is in your members... Even Paul couldn't do it, how is it that you can?

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Our dear brother Paul was not a sinner anymore, when he writes that. He feel that something from the past was hanging on him, but he was not a sinner anymore.

 

[KJV1611]

Our dear brother Paul was not a sinner anymore, when he writes that. He feel that something from the past was hanging on him, but he was not a sinner anymore.

What part of the verse tells us that Paul felt like something from his past was hanging on him?

 

[kennethcadwell]

I'm more interested in understanding how you escaped the law of sin which is in your members... Even Paul couldn't do it, how is it that you can?

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Once again Apostle Paul in Romans 7 is not talking about his current walk in the faith, as he is explaining how he was carnal minded sold under sin in the flesh. In Romans 8 he shows his current position in the faith, and says he now walks by the Spirit in which there is now no condemnation in Christ because he no longer walks carnally minded, for he says that way leads to death..........