I fail to see the difference between satan asking permission and God removing the hedge of protection around Job.
Is it not true that if the God's hedge of protection remained that satan would have been unable to assail Job?
Some common misconceptions about God;
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I fail to see the difference between satan asking permission and God removing the hedge of protection around Job.
Is it not true that if the God's hedge of protection remained that satan would have been unable to assail Job?
Stones:
Job 32:2 But then Barachel's son Elihu from Buz, one of Ram's descendants, got really angry. He was furious with Job because he had been declaring himself righteous instead of vindicating God.
The All mighty says of iyov.
“Did you notice my servant Iyov, that there’s no one like him on earth, a blameless(sincere) and upright man who fears God and shuns evil?”
Upright: (of a person or their behavior) strictly honorable or honest.
Anyone calling the Lord a liar is of the seed of the fallen one, end of story.
elihu is a fithy liar.
4 corners to a house or hedge, which is why we are told not to round the corners.
i shouldnt have to say anymore about iyov being sealed with the Ruach Haqodosh(Holy Spirit) because it was the All Mighties very decree that the man is blameless.
Who has been led astray by the nararator Here?
32. Now these three men ceased to answer Job because he considered himself righteous.
But I can guarantee that whoever is angry with another believer will answer for it in court.
But then the anger of elihu
The allegation, now find where it is written that iyov said such.
[FONT="]“You spoke within my hearing,[/FONT]
[FONT="]and I heard what you said —[/FONT]
[FONT="]9 ‘I am clean, without transgression;[/FONT]
[FONT="]I am innocent, not guilty.[/FONT]
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“Did you notice my servant Iyov, that there’s no one like him on earth, a blameless(sincere) and upright man who fears God and shuns evil?”
seems to me that some here are are hard of heart and hard of hearing.
D
Depleted
Guest
Is that a marketing strategy for WoF? "Do not answer direct questions, but spin a long yarn to avoid answering, so it looks like you're answering them. And then, act hurt that everyone is 'misunderstanding you.'"
You keep talking long and involved, even go on and on about other stuff, but you have not answered the direct question.
And, so, I keep asking until you do.
Do you believe this? Do you believe the very first sentence Ellis wrote under his very first subsection?
#1: Satan needs God’s permission to attack us
Satan didn’t ask for permission to go after Job because he didn’t need permission.
D
Depleted
Guest
Conversations between Satan and God concerning Job:
Job 1:[FONT="]6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]7 The Lord said to Satan, “From where have you come?” Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.”[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]8 And the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?”[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]9 Then Satan answered the Lord and said, “Does Job fear God for no reason?[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]10 Have you not put a hedge around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]11 But stretch out your hand and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face.”[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]12 And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand.” So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.[/FONT]
Job [FONT="]2 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them to present himself before the Lord.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]2 And the Lord said to Satan, “From where have you come?” Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.”[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]3 And the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil? He still holds fast his integrity, although you incited me against him to destroy him without reason.”[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]4 Then Satan answered the Lord and said, “Skin for skin! All that a man has he will give for his life.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]5 But stretch out your hand and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse you to your face.”[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]6 And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, he is in your hand; only spare his life.”[/FONT]
Not only did Satan seek God, God had a point to prove in this argument, and gave the specific outline of what Satan could and could not do.
Believe/echo any heretic you want, but do NOT preach the heretic to Christians! We're going to call you on it each and every time.
God's word is true, and Ellis is a liar!
Yes I stuck with the OP and refuted all of Ellis' nonsense (see Post #180). So let's see what you have to say to counter Scripture.
A
Ariel82
Guest
I would have to disagree. I do believe Elihu was a prophet before the appearance of God because God did not rebuke him along with Eliphaz and his two friends.
Elihu told Job to humble himself and realize that God doesn't OWE US ANYTHING. No matter how righteous and blameless we walk..,, we are nothing but unprofitable servants.
Until the world realizes that God does NOT promise an easy lufe, wealth or health. Until the world is humbled and admits that everything we are given is a BLESSING FROM GOD and not a payment for wages earned....ONLY THEN DOES ONES faith built up.
Jesus told His disciples that parable about how if you are a servant and worked in the fields all day. When your master comes home,he does NOT tell you to sit down and eat some dinner...he tells you to make His dinner and serve Him.
Yet people out of pride rebell against this.
I agree that Dr. Paul Ellis is wrong in most of his post and don't believe that Elihu is like Jesus healing Job. He is more like John the Baptist warning Job of the judgement to come....however God reveals yet again His mercy, grace and love.
Job realizes that God doesn't owe him anything and even in Chapter 3 days "God gives and takes away"
However God blesses people beyond what most take the time to thank Him for.
Instead of giving God thanks, folks are like spoiled double minded adulterous children who seek the idols and wealth of the world and never seek to store treasures in heaven by selling all their possessions and giving them to the poor.
What God values as wealth is love and compassion....not bank accounts, clithes, houses or cars.
The Jews rejected Jesus because they wanted a political earthy king, but Jesus reigns upon His throne in heaven.
How many people recognize His current Kingship?
Think about the difference there is in reading this account if you had never heard the Good news?
The difference being is that believers have an Advocate, iyov did not.
So the perspective is one of despair as wicked counsel continues while iyov(job) is suffering for what he has no idea of why.
. In a sense there is something believers need to be wary of here(especially concerning false teachers)
this account is a part of the K'tuvim of the TaNaKh.
the prophets are kept together as Nei,vim.
For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
But I can guarantee that whoever is angry with another believer will answer for it in court.
again, i put forth the question. Below is the The allegation of elihu, now find where it is written that iyov said such.
But then the anger of elihu
“You spoke within my hearing,
and I heard what you said —
9 ‘I am clean, without transgression;
I am innocent, not guilty.
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As i shared before it is written that the Lord said iyov(job) spoke rightly.
he was giving an honest testimony of his suffering. so this placates what elihu stated, in that his anger was (false)without cause) unrighteous anger.
Given the situation, who here has compasion in their heart? elihu certainly did not,..
Where elihu was angry, our Lord and Savior was silent.
So, for anyone to teach otherwise has nothing more than treachery on their lips. And our Lord spoke of these as it would be better to have a millstone throne around their necks.
So here is an example of how easily Christians are fooled by false teachers such as Ellis. I was hoping to avoid having to address his false teachings in detail, but since this was the response from stones, I believe it is necessary to deal with this properly and biblically (although it will get lengthy).
FALSE TEACHING #1
Ellis rejects this truth: “Satan needs God’s permission to attack us”
Satan didn’t ask for permission to go after Job because he didn’t need permission.
Nehemiah
Let’s examine the first dialogue between Satan and God, and see that Satan INDIRECTLY sought God’s permission to attack Job.
Stones:
From The Complete Jewish Bible
ADONAI asked the Adversary, “Did you notice my servant Iyov, that there’s no one like him on earth, a blameless and upright man who fears God and shuns evil?”
Father calls attention to the adversary about Job.
9 The Adversary answered ADONAI, “Is it for nothing that Iyov fears God?
10 You’ve put a protective hedge around him, his house and everything he has. You’ve prospered his work, and his livestock are spread out all over the land. 11 But if you reach out your hand and touch whatever he has, without doubt he’ll curse you to your face!”
This is not asking anything here by Satan. God is calling attention to Jobs walk of righteous loving. Satan is accusing Job of serving God because he's prospered.
12 ADONAI said to the Adversary, “Here! Everything he has is in your hands, except that you are not to lay a finger on his person.”
This could be read two ways. So when in doubt, I go to concordance. Not that I'm a scholar.
Job 1:12 And the LORD H3068 said H559 unto H413 Satan, H7854 Behold, H2009 all H3605 that H834 he hath is in thy power; H3027 only H7535 upon H413 himself put not forth H408 H7971 thine hand. H3027 So Satan H7854 went forth H3318 from H4480H5973 the presence H6440 of the LORD. H3068
Does the word behold answer this question? I think it might.
H2009
הִנֵּה
hinnêh
hin-nay'
Prolonged for H2005; lo!: - behold, lo, see.
Total KJV occurrences: 1060
lo with an exclamation point. Why?
H2005
הֵן
hên
hane
A primitive particle; lo! also (as expressing surprise) if: - behold, if, lo, though.
Total KJV occurrences: 99
Looks to me like God is surprised at something Satan is saying.. like don't you know all is in your power? But, God limits it to destroying Job.
But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.
Nehemiah:
Satan was asking God to destroy Job, but INDIRECTLY he was asking permission to attack Job. That God actually gave him permission is clearly expressed in these words : Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand.
stones:
and I've addressed this.
Nehemiah:
The larger question, and the overarching doctrine which has not been addressed by Ellis, is whether Satan is under God’s control or not. And the fact that he is indeed under God’s control is expressed thus: only upon himself put not forth thine hand. Did Satan obey this directive? Absolutely. He did not touch Job personally at this point. And he could not do that because he did not have God’s permission to do so.
stones:
Job sacrificed. He was under blood. But, his children did not. Now Job did for his sons, but I would think that accountability would be in play here.
Nehemiah
Now we come to the second dialogue between Satan and God.
And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life. But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face. And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.
ADONAI said to the Adversary, “Here! He is in your hands, except that you are to spare his life.”
stones:
again, could be either way.
Job 2:6 And the LORD H3068 said H559 unto H413 Satan, H7854 Behold, H2009 he is in thine hand; H3027 but H389 save H8104 ( H853 ) his life. H5315
Except for the word behold.
Nehemiah:
Here we find once again that Satan is under the absolute authority and control of God, and he is forbidden from killing Job. Therefore he afflicts him with “sore boils” only. So, if we stay solely in the book of Job, we see that Satan does need God’s permission to attack us. God set’s the boundaries and Satan must obey. This is not in the Bible only for the sake of Job, but for the sake of all God’s people.
stones:
I want you to know Nehemiah, that I'm not preferring Ellis or Joanie. Am saying what I see.
Nehemiah:
What Ellis failed to tell his readers is that if God had chosen to do so He could have either (a) bound Satan in the bottomless pit right then and there, but did not do so, or (b) God could have cast Satan and all his evil spirits into the Lake of Fire right there, but again chose not to do so. The point is that the Holy Spirit is called “the Restrainer” of Satan, and it is only because God Himself is restraining Satan that there is not as much sin and evil as could be possible. But Satan cannot do as he pleases, which is what Ellis is telling his readers.
No, no God would not nor could not bind the devil at any other time than the appointed time. This thing has to play out till the end. I could give many reasons why I say this, but just one for now. Those that are foreknown by Him that are His must be born. We are close to this ending and we know this because of events in Israel. But is not the topic.
Nehemiah:
FALSE TEACHING #2
Ellis rejects this truth: “God uses Satan...”
Woof! What nonsense. What fellowship does light have with darkness (2 Cor 6:14)?
Firstly, we should note that Ellis has quoted an inappropriate Scripture to support his idea, and his wording is indeed “nonsense”. Even if Satan was used as a “sheepdog” it has absolutely nothing to do with “fellowship” with God. So he just pulled a Scripture out of thin air to support his teaching. But no one has ever made such a preposterous statement as Satan being a “sheepdog”. The issue is this: Does God uses Satan to bring chastisement upon sinning Christians? And that is the truth which Ellis is denying here. In other words, he is contradicting Scripture.
stones:
I didn't address this since I never heard this before. I did look at the scripture and agree there is a divide between light and darkness spiritually and physically.
Nehemiah:
Please note what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 5:1-5:
It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Please note what is stated in verse 5 -- To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh – to see that Ellis is deliberately misleading his audience by making fun about a “sheepdog”, when he should be soberly reminding them of this passage and what it means. “The destruction of the flesh” could mean anything which would destroy or debilitate the human body. And God allowed this to happen to Job as well as to Paul, and it applies to any of God’s people.
stones:
Good point. Personally, I believe the Word is chastisement as in correction. I believe this is the purpose of instruction.
Ellis must have a reason for saying what he says, so I want to look.
I think I found it.
With such a person you shouldn’t even eat!
12 For what business is it of mine to judge outsiders? Isn’t it those who are part of the community that you should be judging?
13 God will judge those who are outside. Just expel the evildoer from among yourselves.
Being outside the protection of the fellowship, would make one open to the enemy. But, the shame of being expelled should be enough I would think.
Nehemiah:
FALSE TEACHING #3
Ellis rejects the truth that: “God gives us sickness and suffering to teach us character”
Satan’s aim was to trick God into harming Job, something that God would never do.
To even talk about anyone trying to “trick” God is plainly stupid, but what Ellis is doing here is denying that God used Satan in the case of Job to bring tremendous suffering and physical pain and distress. Ellis is attacking the book of Job and the factual history of how God allowed Satan to attack Job. This is extremely serious, since Ellis wants to create his own false doctrine about Christian suffering and sickness. We should never forget that the book of Job is Scripture, and it is there to teach us life lessons.
Stones:
I agree that it was a poor poor choice of words. I would use tempt.
but, God didn't use Satan to bring good by suffering.
Nehemiah:
For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.(Romans 15:4).
stones:
yes, that scripture backs what I said about the Word used to chastise us and correct. He, Word, spirit and life, builds our character by the rhema of the logos.
Nehemiah:
Did Job’s experience develop his patience and increase his understanding of God and God’s ways? Absolutely. Are we expected to learn patience in the midst of suffering through Job? Absolutely. Please note carefully what James has to say:
Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh. Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door. Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience. Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.
stones:
? I don't know about patience. Job didn't ask God to stop things did he? He accepted it all as if God was doing this. We know it wasn't God.
In the next to last meeting I was recently viewing, the prophet called out someone with metal in the neck to come forward for healing. No one responded, he called a few times and then the sound man I think it was, stood and said he thought it was for him. The prophet asked him if he wanted to keep his metal. Funny, but is true of a lot of Christians. It's like those who accept evil as if from God, has some kind of desire to keep it. And there are reasons why one would if you think about getting money from some way. Anyway....He was prayed for, his neck was loosened from unable to move freely side to side and up and down. Had formerly a break at C1C2. He said no by the way, his hesitancy was from not being sure it was him. More to story but just the facts, Friday. Joke there if old enough to know. Lol
Nehemiah:
Did Job develop a deeper and proper understanding of the sovereignty of God and of God’s ways, humbled himself, and repented of his previous understanding of God ? Absolutely. Are we to take home some vital lessons from Job in this regard? Absolutely.
Then Job answered the LORD, and said, I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee. Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not. Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes. (Job 42:1-6).
Is Job held up to us in Scripture as a truly righteous man (along with Noah and Daniel) who was afflicted in order to learn some necessary lessons about God and His ways? Absolutely. Here is how Job is commended in Scripture (Ezekiel 14:14-20):
stones:
respectfully disagree Ne. Job saw the Lord as He is in truth.
Nehemiah:
Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD. If I cause noisome beasts to pass through the land, and they spoil it, so that it be desolate, that no man may pass through because of the beasts: Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters; they only shall be delivered, but the land shall be desolate. Or if I bring a sword upon that land, and say, Sword, go through the land; so that I cut off man and beast from it Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters, but they only shall be delivered themselves.Or if I send a pestilence into that land, and pour out my fury upon it in blood, to cut off from it man and beast: Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.
stones:
righteousness is the subject. Ones own righteousness is a whole other topic. Upright is the preferred word in my thought.
Nehemiah:
FALSE TEACHING #4
Ellis rejects the Bible truth that: “God “allows” sickness and suffering to afflict us”
God does not work for the devil. If God gave the thief permission to rob you, he wouldn’t be a thief.
Another foolish statement from “Dr” Ellis. Has anyone ever said that God works for the devil? And the rest of that statement is just nonsense. A thief would be a thief whether permitted or not permitted by God. So that is just another blasphemous statement which has no relevance whatsoever. But does the Bible teach that God allows sickness and suffering to afflict us? Absolutely. And when a false teacher such as Ellis blatantly denies that, he creates a false hope among gullible Christians.
The best example of a faithful and godly Christian who suffered tremendously and was also afflicted with a physical disability is the apostle Paul. And he describes his own sufferings for us so that we may learn a lesson about God’s love and God’s ways.
Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft. Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one. Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep; In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city,in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness. Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches. Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not? If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.(2 Cor 11:23-30)
Did Paul ask the Lord three times to remove the “thorn” in his flesh (body), and did the Lord refuse to do so? Absolutely. Was that “thorn” (no doubt a physical disability originating with Satan) a source of great pain and discomfort to Paul? Absolutely. How God’s saints and servants always suffered and been subject to sickness? Absolutely. So does Ellis have any biblical basis for his nonsensical teachings? Absolutely not. Indeed we are told by Paul that we will suffer many things, but they will not separate us from the love of God.
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Rom 8:35-39)
While we are “conquerors” through Christ in that we do not lose faith under trying circumstances but endure through sufferings, we cannot deny that God will subject us to tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword. But that is exactly what Ellis and his gang of false teachers are denying.
It should be evident that when we know what the Bible teaches about these issues and compare that to what Ellis is teaching, we can see that a false teacher is promoting a false concept of God and then telling us that our understanding from Scripture are “misconceptions.
Stones:
I have limited time now so quickly I will state my objections to what this says above and why.
Jesus came to reveal Father. He went about doing good the scripture says heal all oppressed by the devil. Well, fancy that!
We will suffer. But, not from God. The world spirit, yes. Unbelievers, yes. The enemy, yes. But not from God.
Later to others. Took me long enough for Nehemiah. Good job Ne.
Ellis rejects the truth that: “God gives us sickness and suffering to teach us character”
Satan’s aim was to trick God into harming Job, something that God would never do.
To even talk about anyone trying to “trick” God is plainly stupid, but what Ellis is doing here is denying that God used Satan in the case of Job to bring tremendous suffering and physical pain and distress. Ellis is attacking the book of Job and the factual history of how God allowed Satan to attack Job. This is extremely serious, since Ellis wants to create his own false doctrine about Christian suffering and sickness. We should never forget that the book of Job is Scripture, and it is there to teach us life lessons.
Stones:
I agree that it was a poor poor choice of words. I would use tempt.
but, God didn't use Satan to bring good by suffering. Nehemiah:
For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.(Romans 15:4).
stones:
yes, that scripture backs what I said about the Word used to chastise us and correct. He, Word, spirit and life, builds our character by the rhema of the logos.
Nehemiah:
Did Job’s experience develop his patience and increase his understanding of God and God’s ways? Absolutely. Are we expected to learn patience in the midst of suffering through Job? Absolutely. Please note carefully what James has to say:
Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh. Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door. Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience. Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.
stones:
? I don't know about patience. Job didn't ask God to stop things did he? He accepted it all as if God was doing this. We know it wasn't God.
In the next to last meeting I was recently viewing, the prophet called out someone with metal in the neck to come forward for healing. No one responded, he called a few times and then the sound man I think it was, stood and said he thought it was for him. The prophet asked him if he wanted to keep his metal. Funny, but is true of a lot of Christians. It's like those who accept evil as if from God, has some kind of desire to keep it. And there are reasons why one would if you think about getting money from some way. Anyway....He was prayed for, his neck was loosened from unable to move freely side to side and up and down. Had formerly a break at C1C2. He said no by the way, his hesitancy was from not being sure it was him. More to story but just the facts, Friday. Joke there if old enough to know. Lol
Nehemiah:
Did Job develop a deeper and proper understanding of the sovereignty of God and of God’s ways, humbled himself, and repented of his previous understanding of God ? Absolutely. Are we to take home some vital lessons from Job in this regard? Absolutely.
Then Job answered the LORD, and said, I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee. Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not. Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes. (Job 42:1-6).
Is Job held up to us in Scripture as a truly righteous man (along with Noah and Daniel) who was afflicted in order to learn some necessary lessons about God and His ways? Absolutely. Here is how Job is commended in Scripture (Ezekiel 14:14-20):
stones:
respectfully disagree Ne. Job saw the Lord as He is in truth.
Nehemiah:
Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD. If I cause noisome beasts to pass through the land, and they spoil it, so that it be desolate, that no man may pass through because of the beasts: Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters; they only shall be delivered, but the land shall be desolate. Or if I bring a sword upon that land, and say, Sword, go through the land; so that I cut off man and beast from it Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters, but they only shall be delivered themselves.Or if I send a pestilence into that land, and pour out my fury upon it in blood, to cut off from it man and beast: Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.
stones:
righteousness is the subject. Ones own righteousness is a whole other topic. Upright is the preferred word in my thought.
Nehemiah:
FALSE TEACHING #4
Ellis rejects the Bible truth that: “God “allows” sickness and suffering to afflict us”
God does not work for the devil. If God gave the thief permission to rob you, he wouldn’t be a thief.
Another foolish statement from “Dr” Ellis. Has anyone ever said that God works for the devil? And the rest of that statement is just nonsense. A thief would be a thief whether permitted or not permitted by God. So that is just another blasphemous statement which has no relevance whatsoever. But does the Bible teach that God allows sickness and suffering to afflict us? Absolutely. And when a false teacher such as Ellis blatantly denies that, he creates a false hope among gullible Christians.
The best example of a faithful and godly Christian who suffered tremendously and was also afflicted with a physical disability is the apostle Paul. And he describes his own sufferings for us so that we may learn a lesson about God’s love and God’s ways.
Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft. Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one. Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep; In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city,in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness. Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches. Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not? If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.(2 Cor 11:23-30)
Did Paul ask the Lord three times to remove the “thorn” in his flesh (body), and did the Lord refuse to do so? Absolutely. Was that “thorn” (no doubt a physical disability originating with Satan) a source of great pain and discomfort to Paul? Absolutely. How God’s saints and servants always suffered and been subject to sickness? Absolutely. So does Ellis have any biblical basis for his nonsensical teachings? Absolutely not. Indeed we are told by Paul that we will suffer many things, but they will not separate us from the love of God.
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Rom 8:35-39)
While we are “conquerors” through Christ in that we do not lose faith under trying circumstances but endure through sufferings, we cannot deny that God will subject us to tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword. But that is exactly what Ellis and his gang of false teachers are denying.
It should be evident that when we know what the Bible teaches about these issues and compare that to what Ellis is teaching, we can see that a false teacher is promoting a false concept of God and then telling us that our understanding from Scripture are “misconceptions.
Stones:
I have limited time now so quickly I will state my objections to what this says above and why.
Jesus came to reveal Father. He went about doing good the scripture says heal all oppressed by the devil. Well, fancy that!
We will suffer. But, not from God. The world spirit, yes. Unbelievers, yes. The enemy, yes. But not from God.
Later to others. Took me long enough for Nehemiah. Good job Ne.
FALSE TEACHING #3
Ellis rejects the truth that: “God gives us sickness and suffering to teach us character”
Satan’s aim was to trick God into harming Job, something that God would never do.
To even talk about anyone trying to “trick” God is plainly stupid, but what Ellis is doing here is denying that God used Satan in the case of Job to bring tremendous suffering and physical pain and distress. Ellis is attacking the book of Job and the factual history of how God allowed Satan to attack Job. This is extremely serious, since Ellis wants to create his own false doctrine about Christian suffering and sickness. We should never forget that the book of Job is Scripture, and it is there to teach us life lessons.
Stones:
I agree that it was a poor poor choice of words. I would use tempt.
Nehemiah:
For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.(Romans 15:4).
stones:
yes, that scripture backs what I said about the Word used to chastise us and correct. He, Word, spirit and life, builds our character by the rhema of the logos.
Nehemiah:
Did Job’s experience develop his patience and increase his understanding of God and God’s ways? Absolutely. Are we expected to learn patience in the midst of suffering through Job? Absolutely. Please note carefully what James has to say:
Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh. Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door. Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience. Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.
stones:
? I don't know about patience. Job didn't ask God to stop things did he? He accepted it all as if God was doing this. We know it wasn't God.
In the next to last meeting I was recently viewing, the prophet called out someone with metal in the neck to come forward for healing. No one responded, he called a few times and then the sound man I think it was, stood and said he thought it was for him. The prophet asked him if he wanted to keep his metal. Funny, but is true of a lot of Christians. It's like those who accept evil as if from God, has some kind of desire to keep it. And there are reasons why one would if you think about getting money from some way. Anyway....He was prayed for, his neck was loosened from unable to move freely side to side and up and down. Had formerly a break at C1C2. He said no by the way, his hesitancy was from not being sure it was him. More to story but just the facts, Friday. Joke there if old enough to know. Lol
Nehemiah:
Did Job develop a deeper and proper understanding of the sovereignty of God and of God’s ways, humbled himself, and repented of his previous understanding of God ? Absolutely. Are we to take home some vital lessons from Job in this regard? Absolutely.
Then Job answered the LORD, and said, I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee. Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not. Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes. (Job 42:1-6).
Is Job held up to us in Scripture as a truly righteous man (along with Noah and Daniel) who was afflicted in order to learn some necessary lessons about God and His ways? Absolutely. Here is how Job is commended in Scripture (Ezekiel 14:14-20):
stones:
respectfully disagree Ne. Job saw the Lord as He is in truth.
Nehemiah:
Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD. If I cause noisome beasts to pass through the land, and they spoil it, so that it be desolate, that no man may pass through because of the beasts: Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters; they only shall be delivered, but the land shall be desolate. Or if I bring a sword upon that land, and say, Sword, go through the land; so that I cut off man and beast from it Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters, but they only shall be delivered themselves.Or if I send a pestilence into that land, and pour out my fury upon it in blood, to cut off from it man and beast: Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.
stones:
righteousness is the subject. Ones own righteousness is a whole other topic. Upright is the preferred word in my thought.
Nehemiah:
FALSE TEACHING #4
Ellis rejects the Bible truth that: “God “allows” sickness and suffering to afflict us”
God does not work for the devil. If God gave the thief permission to rob you, he wouldn’t be a thief.
Another foolish statement from “Dr” Ellis. Has anyone ever said that God works for the devil? And the rest of that statement is just nonsense. A thief would be a thief whether permitted or not permitted by God. So that is just another blasphemous statement which has no relevance whatsoever. But does the Bible teach that God allows sickness and suffering to afflict us? Absolutely. And when a false teacher such as Ellis blatantly denies that, he creates a false hope among gullible Christians.
The best example of a faithful and godly Christian who suffered tremendously and was also afflicted with a physical disability is the apostle Paul. And he describes his own sufferings for us so that we may learn a lesson about God’s love and God’s ways.
Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft. Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one. Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep; In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city,in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness. Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches. Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not? If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.(2 Cor 11:23-30)
Did Paul ask the Lord three times to remove the “thorn” in his flesh (body), and did the Lord refuse to do so? Absolutely. Was that “thorn” (no doubt a physical disability originating with Satan) a source of great pain and discomfort to Paul? Absolutely. How God’s saints and servants always suffered and been subject to sickness? Absolutely. So does Ellis have any biblical basis for his nonsensical teachings? Absolutely not. Indeed we are told by Paul that we will suffer many things, but they will not separate us from the love of God.
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Rom 8:35-39)
While we are “conquerors” through Christ in that we do not lose faith under trying circumstances but endure through sufferings, we cannot deny that God will subject us to tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword. But that is exactly what Ellis and his gang of false teachers are denying.
It should be evident that when we know what the Bible teaches about these issues and compare that to what Ellis is teaching, we can see that a false teacher is promoting a false concept of God and then telling us that our understanding from Scripture are “misconceptions.
Stones:
I have limited time now so quickly I will state my objections to what this says above and why.
Jesus came to reveal Father. He went about doing good the scripture says heal all oppressed by the devil. Well, fancy that!
We will suffer. But, not from God. The world spirit, yes. Unbelievers, yes. The enemy, yes. But not from God.
Later to others. Took me long enough for Nehemiah. Good job Ne.
Stones:
I have limited time now so quickly I will state my objections to what this says above and why.
Jesus came to reveal Father. He went about doing good the scripture says heal all oppressed by the devil. Well, fancy that!
We will suffer. But, not from God. The world spirit, yes. Unbelievers, yes. The enemy, yes. But not from God.
this i agree with you on...discernment
Blessings Always
A
Ariel82
Guest
Job 36 Elihu speaks against false prosperity gospels but I am sure folks will twiest that also..,also if Elihu spoke wrongly why did both Job agree with him and God not rebuke him with Eliphaz.
.I believe folks don't like being rebuked and his words hit too close to home or they have twisted them to mean something they weren't men at to if taken in context.
"3 “The godless in heart harbor resentment;
even when he fetters them, they do not cry for help.
14 They die in their youth,
among male prostitutes of the shrines.
15 But those who suffer he delivers in their suffering;
he speaks to them in their affliction.
16 “He is wooing you from the jaws of distress
to a spacious place free from restriction,
to the comfort of your table laden with choice food.
17 But now you are laden with the judgment due the wicked;
judgment and justice have taken hold of you.
18 Be careful that no one entices you by riches;
do not let a large bribe turn you aside.
19 Would your wealth or even all your mighty efforts
sustain you so you would not be in distress?
20 Do not long for the night,
to drag people away from their homes.
21 Beware of turning to evil,
which you seem to prefer to affliction."
*****
The question is would you suffer affliction for God or will you be lured to wealth and false riches instead?
Is God's grace enough or will you seek to remove the thorn at the cost of your soul?
.I believe folks don't like being rebuked and his words hit too close to home or they have twisted them to mean something they weren't men at to if taken in context.
"3 “The godless in heart harbor resentment;
even when he fetters them, they do not cry for help.
14 They die in their youth,
among male prostitutes of the shrines.
15 But those who suffer he delivers in their suffering;
he speaks to them in their affliction.
16 “He is wooing you from the jaws of distress
to a spacious place free from restriction,
to the comfort of your table laden with choice food.
17 But now you are laden with the judgment due the wicked;
judgment and justice have taken hold of you.
18 Be careful that no one entices you by riches;
do not let a large bribe turn you aside.
19 Would your wealth or even all your mighty efforts
sustain you so you would not be in distress?
20 Do not long for the night,
to drag people away from their homes.
21 Beware of turning to evil,
which you seem to prefer to affliction."
*****
The question is would you suffer affliction for God or will you be lured to wealth and false riches instead?
Is God's grace enough or will you seek to remove the thorn at the cost of your soul?
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A
Ariel82
Guest
Job 38
“Who is this that obscures my plans
with words without knowledge?
That is God talking to Job...Job failed the test of being sinless but since he repented, God forgave him.
Only one man was ever sinless and that was Jesus. It shows is WHY we all need a savior.
“Who is this that obscures my plans
with words without knowledge?
That is God talking to Job...Job failed the test of being sinless but since he repented, God forgave him.
Only one man was ever sinless and that was Jesus. It shows is WHY we all need a savior.
Hi JM
I haven't even read past #1 of your post because it stopped me in my tracks.
I know we all perceive things in different ways. My mind can't even wrap around #1 though. I don't know how you could read the beginning of Job and take it with: Satan has asked to sift you like wheat, and then come away with what you say in #1.
I'm not inclined to read the rest until I can understand how you arrive at this #1...
I haven't even read past #1 of your post because it stopped me in my tracks.
I know we all perceive things in different ways. My mind can't even wrap around #1 though. I don't know how you could read the beginning of Job and take it with: Satan has asked to sift you like wheat, and then come away with what you say in #1.
I'm not inclined to read the rest until I can understand how you arrive at this #1...
Yes it is the All Mighty speaking to iyov. And something the Lord so beautifully reminded me, Is that the sheep recognize his voice.
Blessings Always.
"For just as the new heavens and the new earth Which I make will endure before Me," declares the LORD, "So your offspring and your name will endure.
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I have to admit that I wasn't motivated by kindness. I happen to believe that Amazon attempts to do business with integrity; and I was more interested in confirming Amazon's reputation than I was in defending Ellis. When Ellis's bio was challenged, Amazon's business integrity was also challenged.