Some thoughts on the Sabbath...

[Inquisitor]

is that why the gentiles are the way they are --lawless

The Gentiles cannot be lawless because the Gentiles were never given the covenant law.

Paul describes the Gentiles as committing "the deeds of the flesh" in Galatians 5.

Paul was well aware that the Gentiles were not members of the covenant Exodus 24.

 

[gb9]

Mark 16 v 1 And when the Sabbath was past , Mary Magdalene , and Mary the mother of James , and Salome , had bought sweet spices , that they might come and anoint him .

Notice this after the Sabbath was past , so that they would not violate it obviously.

Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week , he appeared first to Mary Magdalene…

they were jewish women, born under Torah, so of course they kept the Sabbath.

has nothing to with gentiles keeping it..

 

[PotofSoup]

Part of what you said above is accurate as shown below.

Then you misunderstood what Isaiah 56 is saying.

If you read the text below from Isaiah 56 this should clarify what you misunderstood.

Isaiah 56:6
Also the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord, to minister to Him, and to love the name of the Lord.
To be His servants, every one who keeps from profaning the sabbath and holds fast My covenant.

Isaiah 56:7
Even those I will bring to My holy mountain and make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on My altar.

The codified law strictly identifies the condition that any Gentile sojourning in Israel must perform. In order
to be a member of that covenant between God and Israel, Exodus 24.

That condition requires the male to be circumcised.

Then that Gentile is like a Jew but is not a Jew and is in covenant to obey the codified law of Exodus 24.

Exodus 12:48-49
But if a stranger sojourns with you, and celebrates the Passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised,
and then let him come near to celebrate it; and he shall be like a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person
may eat of it. The same law shall apply to the native as to the stranger who sojourns among you.

A Gentile living outside of Israel is not permitted to join the covenant of Exodus 24.

A Gentile who is uncircumcised and living outside of Israel cannot follow the codified law stated in Exodus 24.
because they are not members of the covenant, they are not legally bound to the codified law.

If you really want to perform the offerings, the sacrifices, the Passover, the Sabbath. Then you you must join
that covenant in Exodus 24.

That's what the text states.

It is interesting how you see this passage in Isaiah, however I see it with a different lens.

"Also, the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord," meaning a Gentile who back then typically worshiped pagan gods, aligned themselves to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, instead of pagan gods. "to minister to Him, and to love the name of the Lord.
To be His servants," meaning the Gentile has a heart for the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, instead of pagan gods. "everyone who keeps from profaning the sabbath and holds fast My covenant", meaning if the Gentile not only aligns and has a heart for the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, instead of pagan gods, but also keeps the covenant of the sabbath that God made with the Jewish people. If you keep reading on it says if they did these things God would bless them.

Isaiah 56:7 is referring to the future, restored Temple in Jerusalem—God’s house—as the place where faithful Gentiles who join themselves to YHWH will be welcomed, accepted, and have their worship received by God.

But the verse is doing far more than describing a building. It is making a theological declaration about the destiny of the nations, the nature of worship, and the identity of God’s people in the age of restoration. Reading further in that verse it says, "my house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations". House of Prayer is future tense; therefore, he is not describing Solomon’s Temple (destroyed in 586 BCE). It is describing the future restored Temple of the post‑exilic and messianic age. Isaiah 56:3–8 addresses two groups historically excluded: Foreigner and eunuchs, Isaiah 56 overturns these exclusions in the age of restoration.

Please remember that Isaiah is a prophetic book, so while he was speaking in the present tense about Gentiles joining in to keep the Shabbat, he also added a prophetic inference concerning Gentile standing in the future, ok course by way of Jesus.

You said, "The codified law strictly identifies the condition that any Gentile sojourning in Israel must perform. In order
to be a member of that covenant between God and Israel, Exodus 24." I read this chapter, but it does not say anything about Gentiles getting circumcised that I can see. Please provide the verses, maybe I am missing it.

Now your assessment of Exodus 12:48-49 is correct particularly back then, but the Passover is a different high holy day then the high holy day of Shabbat. The discussion is on the Shabbat, not Passover, correct? I can get into more details about the Passover and Gentiles not being included in this, but this particular thread is discussing the Shabbat. If there is a thread about the Passover, let me know and we can discuss the Passover in that thread if you like. Let me know.

Nevertheless, I appreciate how you are keeping the distinctions between Jews and Gentiles, because these distinctions are important. One law advocates try to remove those distinctions.

 

[BBerean]

they were jewish women, born under Torah, so of course they kept the Sabbath.

has nothing to with gentiles keeping it..

Well at least you recognize the Sabbath as being kept after the cross work ! But Salvation is not limited to the Jews either.

 

[BBerean]

It is interesting how you see this passage in Isaiah, however I see it with a different lens.

"Also, the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord," meaning a Gentile who back then typically worshiped pagan gods, aligned themselves to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, instead of pagan gods. "to minister to Him, and to love the name of the Lord.
To be His servants," meaning the Gentile has a heart for the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, instead of pagan gods. "everyone who keeps from profaning the sabbath and holds fast My covenant", meaning if the Gentile not only aligns and has a heart for the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, instead of pagan gods, but also keeps the covenant of the sabbath that God made with the Jewish people. If you keep reading on it says if they did these things God would bless them.

Isaiah 56:7 is referring to the future, restored Temple in Jerusalem—God’s house—as the place where faithful Gentiles who join themselves to YHWH will be welcomed, accepted, and have their worship received by God.

But the verse is doing far more than describing a building. It is making a theological declaration about the destiny of the nations, the nature of worship, and the identity of God’s people in the age of restoration. Reading further in that verse it says, "my house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations". House of Prayer is future tense; therefore, he is not describing Solomon’s Temple (destroyed in 586 BCE). It is describing the future restored Temple of the post‑exilic and messianic age. Isaiah 56:3–8 addresses two groups historically excluded: Foreigner and eunuchs, Isaiah 56 overturns these exclusions in the age of restoration.

Please remember that Isaiah is a prophetic book, so while he was speaking in the present tense about Gentiles joining in to keep the Shabbat, he also added a prophetic inference concerning Gentile standing in the future, ok course by way of Jesus.

You said, "The codified law strictly identifies the condition that any Gentile sojourning in Israel must perform. In order
to be a member of that covenant between God and Israel, Exodus 24." I read this chapter, but it does not say anything about Gentiles getting circumcised that I can see. Please provide the verses, maybe I am missing it.

Now your assessment of Exodus 12:48-49 is correct particularly back then, but the Passover is a different high holy day then the high holy day of Shabbat. The discussion is on the Shabbat, not Passover, correct? I can get into more details about the Passover and Gentiles not being included in this, but this particular thread is discussing the Shabbat. If there is a thread about the Passover, let me know and we can discuss the Passover in that thread if you like. Let me know.

Nevertheless, I appreciate how you are keeping the distinctions between Jews and Gentiles, because these distinctions are important. One law advocates try to remove those distinctions Is God the God of The Jews or God of the Gentiles also . It’s really a no brainer.

 

[BBerean]

I posted Roman’s ch3 and looks like few even read it or can’t understand it ?

V29 Is he the God of the Jews only ? Is he not also OF the Gentiles? Yes , OF the Gentiles also. :

Do you need me to explain simple English to you all ???? Come on get the rocks out of your heads !!!


Verse 30 Do we then make void the law through faith ? (Are you people really that dense ???? )

God forbid ; yea WE establish the LAW ! (Wake up and smell the coffee !!! )

 

[BBerean]

Romans chapter 3 is a great read if you have the lights on !

 

[memberofthebride]

The law given to Israel which Israel would be unable to obey was given for a purpose.

Simply put, the law merely shows you that you are a sinner and in need of a savior.

That purpose was to ready Israel for the messiah.

Jesus did not arrive and fulfill the law for the righteous, Jesus came for the sinner, the unrighteous.

Mankind cannot obey the law because mankind is flesh and blood and at enmity with God and the law.

Only Jesus could obey the law perfectly and offer up the perfect sacrifice.

We are righteous because Jesus is righteous and the law has nothing to do with that divine righteousness.

You have an iron grip on the former covenant and the outcome is death.

this line of reasoning using human nature is one reason why the Time of the End is coming,
Christ is coming to "restore all things", what is it He will restore?

He has said in many ways He hate lawlessness which He calls iniquity and those that are doing iniquity He does not know.

One thing I am certain of, When Christ returns as KING of Kings, lawlessness/iniquity will not be allowed.

no one can be put to death unless there is testimony from two witnesses according to Torah.

18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

why are there two tables--which Jesus Christ wrote with HIS finger-- two witnesses testifying against mankind.

and then Christ changed His mind and said nope, I don't like the commandments any longer, I will give eternal life to folks just as they are, liars, thieves, murderers, adulterers that worship idols.

the above can not change your mind --- That's Christ job.

 

[SpecialName]

Remember Shabbat and keep It Holy, yet you changed the day because you are powerful latin speakers who have a point to prove.....well done !

 

[Roger316]

Jesus Christ's position as THE Judge of all mankind is "besides the point" ??????????? WOW! very brave of you

Don't misunderstand me. When I say that the judgment of Christ is beside the point, I am not saying that it is unimportant or insignificant. It is very significant. But it isn't relevant to whether we should rest on Saturday. Christ is judging our hearts, not our religious practices.

I have no interest in Jewish or American courts or any human court -- they are all corrupt and evil, I have first hand experience.

Okay. However, the Mosaic Law is called a "law" because disobedience was adjudicated in a Jewish court. Thus, the Law says that a man can not be convicted unless upon the testimony of two witnesses.

what do you suppose Christ will use, what law, what standard, will He use to Judge YOU? and He will judge you?

Our hearts are judged based on our actions. Thus, Paul declares that we will be judged by our deeds. But the deeds he has in view are those that show or demonstrate that we are seeking both glory and eternal life. Romans 2:7-8

you must be an attorney, I have lots of experience with attorneys, they are word masters -- they could convict Jesus Christ, Oh right they did.

no reply is needed

I appreciate your boldness for Christ.

 

[Roger316]

Mark 16 v 1 And when the Sabbath was past , Mary Magdalene , and Mary the mother of James , and Salome , had bought sweet spices , that they might come and anoint him .

Notice this after the Sabbath was past , so that they would not violate it obviously.

Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week , he appeared first to Mary Magdalene…

The women were Jewish.

 

[Roger316]

Remember Shabbat and keep It Holy, yet you changed the day because you are powerful latin speakers who have a point to prove.....well done !

Not all Christians are Catholics

 

[memberofthebride]

Don't misunderstand me. When I say that the judgment of Christ is beside the point, I am not saying that it is unimportant or insignificant. It is very significant. But it isn't relevant to whether we should rest on Saturday. Christ is judging our hearts, not our religious practices.

Okay. However, the Mosaic Law is called a "law" because disobedience was adjudicated in a Jewish court. Thus, the Law says that a man can not be convicted unless upon the testimony of two witnesses.

Our hearts are judged based on our actions. Thus, Paul declares that we will be judged by our deeds. But the deeds he has in view are those that show or demonstrate that we are seeking both glory and eternal life. Romans 2:7-8

I appreciate your boldness for Christ.

"It is very significant. But it isn't relevant to whether we should rest on Saturday.
Christ is judging our hearts, not our religious practices.'
What is the difference between our hearts, which to me is our nature, or our religious practices?
My religious practices are guided and controlled by my nature which my Father is converting into His Divine Nature.

Every thing -- everything I read in the OT and NT keys on obeying.
Christ said "live by every word" -- obeying every Word, doing every word. I see Christ judging "action" not words.

I believe you will agree our human nature is 100% against God's righteous way and can not obey -- ever!
If any should have been able to Obey it should have been the children of Israel, they saw the power of God over and over.

I have for almost 60 years been trying to live by every word, but like Paul said.. the things I know I should do, I do not and the things I know I should NOT do,, those I do. If I am judged by my heart/nature, I have another 60 years to go.

lets go back to judging our hearts --- what are the standards by which Jesus Christ judges our natures?
and exactly what is being judged? is it our thoughts, our actions or both?

Where are we told what our hearts/natures should become, what are we to become like?
We are to seek and aim for the perfection found in Jesus Christ --- what did He do to be "perfection" sin less?
He obeyed the Torah to perfection.

at the first resurrection when the Chosen rise to meet Christ they rise with the same spirit Body and Divine Nature as Jesus Christ,
21Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

We are to be given the same divine mind, divine nature and divine body as Jesus Christ, and being in that Divine Spirit body sin, transgress of God's Holy Law, will finally be impossible.

I see no other way other than obeying. in genesis we are told God is forming humans in His likeness, His image and what is that image and likeness --- perfection.

 

[Inquisitor]

Remember Shabbat and keep It Holy, yet you changed the day because you are powerful latin speakers who have a point to prove.....well done !

Your premise is that the Gentile nations were under the Mosaic law and that is not what the scripture states.

The sabbath commandment in the law was specifically given to Israel as a sign of their covenant.

The sabbath day incidentally was never changed for the Jews because that law was only given to them.

The Gentile nations did not change anything regarding the Jewish sabbath law.

I will hand this question over to AI.

According to Scripture, Gentiles were never under the Mosaic Law (the Old Covenant given at Sinai), which was
specifically for Israel. However, the Bible teaches that Gentiles were always under God’s moral law (the "law of conscience"),
which holds all humanity accountable for sin (Romans 2:14-15). [1, 2, 3, 4]

• Never Under the Law of Moses: Scriptures indicate the Mosaic Law was a "guardian" specifically for the Jews
• until Christ, and that Gentiles did not have this covenantal relationship.
• The Law of Conscience: Paul writes in Romans 2:14-15 that Gentiles "do not have the law" (of Moses) but "show
• the requirements of the law are written on their hearts," as their conscience bears witness.
• Universal Accountability: Romans 3:19 states that "every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become
• guilty before God".
• All Under Sin: Galatians 3:22 says, "scripture concluded all under sin," referring to a captivity under the
• "elemental things of the world" rather than specifically the Mosaic Law, as noted by researchers.
• Acts 15 Verdict: When Gentiles converted, the apostles decided not to place the burden of the
• Mosaic Law upon them, acknowledging they were not originally under it.

 

[Inquisitor]

this line of reasoning using human nature is one reason why the Time of the End is coming,
Christ is coming to "restore all things", what is it He will restore?

He has said in many ways He hate lawlessness which He calls iniquity and those that are doing iniquity He does not know.

One thing I am certain of, When Christ returns as KING of Kings, lawlessness/iniquity will not be allowed.

no one can be put to death unless there is testimony from two witnesses according to Torah.

18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

why are there two tables--which Jesus Christ wrote with HIS finger-- two witnesses testifying against mankind.

and then Christ changed His mind and said nope, I don't like the commandments any longer, I will give eternal life to folks just as they are, liars, thieves, murderers, adulterers that worship idols.

the above can not change your mind --- That's Christ job.

You are rejecting the testimony of the scripture regarding the law.

Can you name the country that was in a covenant to obey the Mosaic covenant?

The Word wrote on the tablets of the covenant given to Israel after the covenant was first established (Exodus 24).

I regard the tablets of stone as bling and a later addition to that former covenant (Exodus 24).

The law written on the heart is the law of Christ not the written law of Exodus 24.

Think new covenant which replaced the former covenant.

 

[Inquisitor]

Remember Shabbat and keep It Holy, yet you changed the day because you are powerful latin speakers who have a point to prove.....well done !

That is one very select version of church history and cannot be supported by church history.

The Catholic church took many centuries before it had enough power to override other western churches.

The Roman Empire never even had a day off until Constantine and that was in the fourth century.

Gentiles never had a day off in the Roman world for a sabbath observance and only Israel. Had a national
day of rest for observance of the sabbath. If you think the Roman world had a day off before the fourth
century then you are deluded.

It is crazy to think that the Roman world was in covenant to obey the law. Only Israel was in a covenant
to obey the law.

 

[Inquisitor]

You said, "The codified law strictly identifies the condition that any Gentile sojourning in Israel must perform. In order
to be a member of that covenant between God and Israel, Exodus 24." I read this chapter, but it does not say anything about Gentiles getting circumcised that I can see. Please provide the verses, maybe I am missing it.

Let AI answer your question regarding the Mosaic covenant between God and Israel.

Several Old Testament passages outline that for Gentiles to participate in the Mosaic Covenant—specifically regarding Passover and living within the community—they were required to be circumcised, effectively becoming "as a native of the land" (Exodus 12:48-49, Numbers 9:14).

Here are the specific verses:

1. Circumcision Required for Passover and Covenant Participation

• Exodus 12:48–49 (NASB/ESV): States that any stranger (foreigner) wishing to celebrate the Passover must have all their males circumcised to be treated as a native of the land.
• Numbers 9:14 (ESV): Reinforces that if a stranger sojourns among the Israelites and wants to keep the Passover, they must follow the same ordinance, emphasizing that circumcision is required for this participation.

2. Location and Community Requirements

• Ezekiel 44:9 (NIV): Declares that no uncircumcised foreigner, even if living among the Israelites, may enter the sanctuary.
• Deuteronomy 31:12 (ESV): Mandates that foreign residents within Israelite gates must assemble to learn to fear the LORD and follow the law. [1]

Contextual Notes

• "Stranger" (Ger): Refers to a resident foreigner living within the community.
• Voluntary Adherence: While not forced, circumcision was necessary for foreigners wanting to participate in the covenant, effectively naturalizing them.
• One Law: According to Numbers 15:15-16, a single law applied to both natives and the circumcised, allowing full participation in the community.

 

[Inquisitor]

He has said in many ways He hate lawlessness which He calls iniquity and those that are doing iniquity He does not know.

Of course, Jesus referred to lawlessness when speaking directly to the Jews in Israel.

Jesus was only sent to Israel (Matthew 15:24).

Gentiles were never under the Mosaic law.

Only Israel was under the Mosaic law.

Read what AI has to say on the Mosaic law.

The Old Covenant (the Law of Moses) was made exclusively with the nation of Israel, not all humanity, serving as a distinct agreement to govern them as God's chosen people. While it included instructions for "strangers" living among them, the covenant obligation was specifically to Israel.

Here are the key verses:

• Deuteronomy 5:1–3 (KJV): "The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day."
• Exodus 19:5–6 (NIV): "Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession... you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation."
• Exodus 34:27 (NIV): "Then the Lord said to Moses, 'Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.'"
• Psalm 147:19–20 (NIV): "He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel. He has done this for no other nation; they do not know his laws."
• Romans 9:4 (NIV): "...The people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises."
• Deuteronomy 4:7–8 (NIV): "What other nation is so great as to have such righteous decrees and laws as this body of laws I am setting before you today?" (Implying this law is unique to Israel). [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]

Contextual Notes:

• Purpose: The law was a guardian for Israel until Christ came.
• The New Covenant: Per Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:8-10, the new covenant is also specifically promised to the house of Israel and Judah.

 

[Inquisitor]

Nevertheless, I appreciate how you are keeping the distinctions between Jews and Gentiles, because these distinctions are important. One law advocates try to remove those distinctions.

Well done, at least you can see the powerful distinction between Jew and Gentile in the scripture.

You are reading the scripture and that is obvious by your reply.

The Passover was paramount in it's fulfillment for the Jews in Egypt and in Israel.

Jesus arrived in Israel and only for Israel in that fulfillment of both the Mosaic law and the prophets.

Jesus was only sent to Israel and not to any other country (Matthew 15:24).

Psalm 147:19–20: "He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel. He has done this for no other
nation; they do not know his laws."

Gentiles are secondary all the way through the scripture and even into the letter of the Romans.

Gentiles are grafted in as a wild olive tree into the root which was Christ.

Romans 11:17
But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became
partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree.

Gentiles never had the law and are invited into a new covenant by the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

Luke 22:20
And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup which is poured out for you is
the new covenant in My blood."

It is not easy to travel through the scripture and arrive into the new covenant untouched by historical theology.

 

[BBerean]

AI is of the devil . Not at all Being led by the Holy Spirit , the errors are horrific.