Someone is in Big Trouble

[crossnote]

Looking at this passage in Rev 22...

I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
(Rev 22:18-19)

So if you take the Textus Receptus (in this case we'll use the KJV, Rev 1:11 says...

Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. (Rev 1:11)

and taking a translation based on the Alexandrian Text (in this case NASB)...

saying, "Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea." (Rev 1:11)

Someone either added or left out (depending on which side of the debate you are on) the phrase " I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and", whichever way you go someone is in BIG trouble if that promise holds true.

 

[Jocund]

I enjoy these kind of dives into the source material.

It could be that fragments of the sources are missing in some cases (unintentional deletion). I don't know much about this specific comparison.

 

[Runningman]

Looking at this passage in Rev 22...

I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
(Rev 22:18-19)

So if you take the Textus Receptus (in this case we'll use the KJV, Rev 1:11 says...

Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. (Rev 1:11)

and taking a translation based on the Alexandrian Text (in this case NASB)...

saying, "Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea." (Rev 1:11)

Someone either added or left out (depending on which side of the debate you are on) the phrase " I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and", whichever way you go someone is in BIG trouble if that promise holds true.

Depends how technical you want to get. Koine Greek didn’t use punctuation. When Greek was translated into various languages they added punctuation. Just a misplaced comma can drastically alter the meaning of a sentence. So where a comma is placed in a sentence is subjective. That could potentially result in “adding to” or “taking away” from the book, technically speaking.

If a translator was wrong even a bit, are they guilty?

Are we guilty if we perpetuate their error by pasting mistranslated passages from Revelation?

 

[ResidentAlien]

saying, "Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea." (Rev 1:11)

Revelation 1:11 (New King James): "saying, 'I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,' and, 'What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.' "

Revelation 1:11 (Virtually all others): "saying, 'Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.' "

The Alexandrian manuscripts (2nd example above) are as unreliable as they come.

 

[Grandpa]

In Revelation 1:8 both versions state "I am the Alpha and the Omega..."

So, it isn't cut out or added. Just not added AGAIN by some other versions. Maybe some of the translators felt it was needless redundancy?

But what the KJV does is show the Authority of the command. The NASB leaves out WHO the voice is. It is implied, I suppose. Probably shouldn't have left it out.

 

[crossnote]

Depends how technical you want to get. Koine Greek didn’t use punctuation. When Greek was translated into various languages they added punctuation. Just a misplaced comma can drastically alter the meaning of a sentence. So where a comma is placed in a sentence is subjective. That could potentially result in “adding to” or “taking away” from the book, technically speaking.

If a translator was wrong even a bit, are they guilty?

Are we guilty if we perpetuate their error by pasting mistranslated passages from Revelation?

I don't think adding or omitting a comma rises to the standard of adding or omitting 'the words of the prophecy of this book', but when they add or omit "I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, do you think that is Kosher?

 

[ResidentAlien]

There's a whole lot of other stuff they leave out too.

 

[crossnote]

I enjoy these kind of dives into the source material.

It could be that fragments of the sources are missing in some cases (unintentional deletion). I don't know much about this specific comparison.

Yes, both translations are taking their cue from some earlier manuscripts, so someone (intentionally or unintentionally) added or subtracted words.

 

[crossnote]

There's a whole lot of other stuff they leave out too.

I've compared differences in translations throughout the NT, and interestingly enough, Revelation has the least!...I wonder if it's due to that warning? hmm.

 

[crossnote]

In Revelation 1:8 both versions state "I am the Alpha and the Omega..."

So, it isn't cut out or added. Just not added AGAIN by some other versions. Maybe some of the translators felt it was needless redundancy?

But what the KJV does is show the Authority of the command. The NASB leaves out WHO the voice is. It is implied, I suppose. Probably shouldn't have left it out.

Yes, I suppose sometimes dynamic equivalency becomes dynamic inequivalency.

 

[crossnote]

Revelation 1:11 (New King James): "saying, 'I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,' and, 'What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.' "

Revelation 1:11 (Virtually all others): "saying, 'Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.' "

The Alexandrian manuscripts (2nd example above) are as unreliable as they come.

Well, at least the scribes of the one or the other are in Big Trouble.

 

[Live4Him3]

Revelation 1:11 (New King James): "saying, 'I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,' and, 'What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.' "

Revelation 1:11 (Virtually all others): "saying, 'Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.' "

The Alexandrian manuscripts (2nd example above) are as unreliable as they come.

It seems to me that the Jehovah's Witnesses aren't the only ones who have a problem with Christ's deity.

In other words, they can't leave in "the first and the last" because then it could easily be cross-referenced with the following:

"Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." (Isaiah 44:6)

 

[Runningman]

I don't think adding or omitting a comma rises to the standard of adding or omitting 'the words of the prophecy of this book', but when they add or omit "I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, do you think that is Kosher?

Well, it depends where the comma was placed. It can change the entire meaning of what was meant. There are some examples in the Bible where, if you shuffle commas around, you can change the doctrine.

Here’s an example:

Let’s eat, grandma.
Let’s eat grandma.

See the big difference? I’m saying the translators couldn’t have possibly known how to translate Greek into other languages with perfect accuracy. just my opinion.

 

[p_rehbein]

I don't think adding or omitting a comma rises to the standard of adding or omitting 'the words of the prophecy of this book', but when they add or omit "I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, do you think that is Kosher?

....context....

17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

20He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

21The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

These Scriptures are stating a different teaching than the verses 12 and 13 IMO......

12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.


Not sure how you married the two to be one statement, but, ok, I guess.

THE REAL TEACHING from these verses is that it dismisses OSAS! Did you see that?

14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

 

[crossnote]

Well, it depends where the comma was placed. It can change the entire meaning of what was meant. There are some examples in the Bible where, if you shuffle commas around, you can change the doctrine.

Here’s an example:

Let’s eat, grandma.
Let’s eat grandma.

See the big difference? I’m saying the translators couldn’t have possibly known how to translate Greek into other languages with perfect accuracy. just my opinion.

I got that but can't you see the difference is not one comma, but ten words, added or omitted

 

[crossnote]

....context....

17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

20He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

21The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

These Scriptures are stating a different teaching than the verses 12 and 13 IMO......

12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.


Not sure how you married the two to be one statement, but, ok, I guess.

THE REAL TEACHING from these verses is that it dismisses OSAS! Did you see that?

14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

View attachment 241224

Doesn't verse 19 include 'written in this book'?
Which writings written? Which book?
That would be the context

 

[Runningman]

I got that but can't you see the difference is not one comma, but ten words, added or omitted

I see the difference you’re right.

I have a question while we’re here. Revelation 22:18,19 says the warning is for those who hear the words of the book. You literally have to hear the book of Revelation recited in full from being to end before the the threat about adding to or taking away applies.

18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Ironically, Revelation 1:3 says that reading the book aloud means you’re blessed, but honesty it seems like it puts people on a shorter leash. Maybe we shouldn’t assume a blessing is always a good thing?

3Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

 

[ResidentAlien]

There are at least 2500 fewer word in the New Testament of modern Bibles compared to the KJV. See Jack Moormon, Missing In Modern Bibles, pp. 25-26.

After watching the following video it should be clear to anyone that the modern versions were created with an agenda and the verses were removed, not added.

 

[crossnote]

THE REAL TEACHING from these verses is that it dismisses OSAS! Did you see that?

No, but neither do I want to turn this into an OSAS thread. We have more than enough of those.

 

[crossnote]

I see the difference you’re right.

I have a question while we’re here. Revelation 22:18,19 says the warning is for those who hear the words of the book. You literally have to hear the book of Revelation recited in full from being to end before the the threat about adding to or taking away applies.

18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Ironically, Revelation 1:3 says that reading the book aloud means you’re blessed, but honesty it seems like it puts people on a shorter leash. Maybe we shouldn’t assume a blessing is always a good thing?

3Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Sorry, I had left.
That's an interesting point, perhaps it is like saying 'for those who hear these words and notice someone adding or omitting words, let it be known the plagues/blessings herein shall be added/removed etc.

I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.
(Rev 22:18-19)