Speaking in Tongues (Privately, Outside of Church)

[shrume]

Thanks for the history lesson. I suppose I must find other verses to make my case.

Please understand that I mean NO disrespect to you whatsoever. I just believe a little differently than you on some things, and I was explaining my position and understanding.

 

[shrume]

Oh, just one little note. The tongue speaker isn't always the one to interpret their own tongues. While it is possible it isn't always the case, as there are others that are granted an interpretation.

1 Corinthians 14:27 King James Version (KJV)

[FONT=&]27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

I believe it means "that same one". IE: the person who has just spoken in tongues.

Three different people are speaking in tongues and yet one interprets. This means that not every single person is interpreting their own tongue.

No. Three different people speak in tongues and interpret, one after the other (in order).

We have other verses as well to verify that others interpret your tongues.

[/FONT]

1 Corinthians 12:10King James Version (KJV)

[FONT=&]10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

See above that "to another divers kinds of tongues" and then "to another the interpretation of tongues." There can be no interpretation of tongues by another unless someone else is speaking in tongues (tongues need to have been spoken by someone in order for another to interpret).

I do see your point. But if it is to be understood that way, then Paul is contradicting himself in 1 Cor 14:5 and 14:13. I believe the whole "for to one...to one...to another...to another" phrasing can be understood as different types of manifestations. It is something I need to get more confident on..

So it works both ways. A tongue speaker can interpret his/her own tongues but often someone else, an interpreter, will interpret what the tongue speaker has spoken.

How do you know whether or not someone else at the meeting is willing to interpret?

 

[KelbyofGod]

...a prayer meeting where people were misusing the manifestations.

People are to speak one at a time, not all at once. And the person speaking in tongues should immediately give the interpretation so the church can be edified.

Shrume,
Thanks for the comment. I see you as a person who has the holy ghost with speaking in tongues and is honestly hoping to help others use it appropriately. I know my job/function in the body of Christ (and elsewhere) and I'm "feeling my oats" so to speak... so I'll unabashedly share the following for your honest consideration regardless of what haters might think.

1 Corinthians 14 is not a full-scale listing of either how tongues can be used, nor how prophecy can be used. It does, however establish some of the basic purposes and functions of each...then gives some examples of what will be the outcomes of certain uses if done in a church setting. Again, this is NOT an all-inclusive list of how (good or bad) tongues and/or prophecy can be used, or the outcomes of said uses.

For example... Paul points out that if, in a church setting, ALL are speaking in tongues and an unlearned/unbelieving person comes in, those who walked in are probably going to say “You're crazy”. I'll take it a step further by saying that if even a SINGLE individual walks into a different public gathering (i.e. a city council meeting) and starts addressing the crowd in tongues instead of English, it only takes that ONE person to cause the same "You're crazy" response. <---My example is not directly written in the bible but I believe that all in this thread can see that it is truth.

Sorry, I’ve got something I have to do now before answering the meat of your comment about praying in tongues in a group. But when I return I hope to show you how it can be done biblically. Meanwhile, it should be interesting to hear what some think of my extra-biblical truth comment.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[UnderGrace]

The plural mysteries is used in 4:1 KJV; 13:2; and 14:2.

In Paul’s writings, mysteries are truths revealed by God that are related to Christ and the plan of salvation.

I have no idea how you can say it completely contradicts scripture.

1 Cor 14:
2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries [secrets].


Of course it's biblical.

Your SAYING that something contradicts scripture is not the same as something actually contradicting scripture.

 

[BenFTW]

I believe it means "that same one". IE: the person who has just spoken in tongues.


No. Three different people speak in tongues and interpret, one after the other (in order).


I do see your point. But if it is to be understood that way, then Paul is contradicting himself in 1 Cor 14:5 and 14:13. I believe the whole "for to one...to one...to another...to another" phrasing can be understood as different types of manifestations. It is something I need to get more confident on..


How do you know whether or not someone else at the meeting is willing to interpret?

There is no contradiction. A tongue speaker can, if he so desires, pray that he, himself, may interpret his own tongues or a tongue interpreter can interpret your tongues for you. It isn't a contradiction, it just reveals that we are many members but one body. How do you know if someone else in the meeting is willing to interpret? You ask if someone present operates in that gift, or has experience with interpretation. You ask prior, before speaking in tongues.

This is why I believe the distinction of gifts and manifestations matters, but thats another topic. lol

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Oh, just one little note. The tongue speaker isn't always the one to interpret their own tongues. While it is possible it isn't always the case, as there are others that are granted an interpretation.

1 Corinthians 14:27 King James Version (KJV)

27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

Three different people are speaking in tongues and yet one interprets. This means that not every single person is interpreting their own tongue. We have other verses as well to verify that others interpret your tongues.

Hi Ben! Let's look at this - 1 Cor. 14:5 says . . .for greater is he that prophesies than he that speaks with tongues except he interpret. also 1 Cor. 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. Those verses seem to say that the one speaking in tongues interprets. With this in mind - 1 Cor. 14:27 If any man speak in a tongue, let it be by two or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. What is the closest antecedent to the pronoun "one"? I believe it is "man" - All are in harmony with each other and are saying the same thing.

1 Corinthians 12:10King James Version (KJV)

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

See above that "to another divers kinds of tongues" and then "to another the interpretation of tongues." There can be no interpretation of tongues by another unless someone else is speaking in tongues (tongues need to have been spoken by someone in order for another to interpret).

So it works both ways. A tongue speaker can interpret his/her own tongues but often someone else, an interpreter, will interpret what the tongue speaker has spoken.

Vine's Concise Dictionary of the Bible - allos and heteros have a difference in meaning, which is to be observed in numerous passages. allos expresses a numerical difference and denotes "another of the same sort"; heteros expresses a qualitative difference and denotes "another of a different sort". So, another doesn't mean to one individual, to another individual, and to another individual because that would contradict what was said in v7 - But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to EVERY MAN. When taken as a whole, this section is really cool the way God basically separates the manifestations into three groups.

For to one [ὁ μέν] is given through the spirit a word of wisdom; and to another [ἄλλος allos] a word of knowledge; and to another [ἕτερος heteros] faith; to another [ἄλλος allos] the gifts of healing; to another [ἄλλος allos] the working of miracles; to another [ἄλλος allos] prophecy; to another [ἄλλος allos ]discerning of spirits; to another [ἕτερος heteros] kinds of tongues; to another [ἄλλος allos] the interpretation of tongues . . .

1) The first two manifestations word of wisdom and word of knowledge are of the same kind or sort (allos); [v8]
2) faith, miracles, prophecy, and discerning of spirits are of the same sort or kind (allos) but different (heteros) from
Group 1 - [v9-10a]
3) Tongues and the interpretation of tongues, are different (heteros) from Group 2 but of the same kind (allos) as each other. [v10b]

(See how after word of wisdom and word of knowledge the section [v9-10a] starts off with heteros setting that grouping apart from the first grouping; and then the section [v10b] again starts off with heteros setting those last two as different from Group 2 . . . indicating the transition) . . . So there we have the three groups or three classes of manifestations. Pretty neat huh!!! Revelation manifestation - word of wisdom and word of knowledge; Power manifestations - faith, gifts of healing, miracles, prophecy, discerning of spirits and the worship manifestations - tongues and interpretation of tongues.

 

[BenFTW]

Please understand that I mean NO disrespect to you whatsoever. I just believe a little differently than you on some things, and I was explaining my position and understanding.

I was being sincere, thanks for the history lesson. I understand that we see manifestations and gifts differently, and that's okay. Like I said, follow the leading of the Holy Spirit and He'll inform you of what gifts you can operate in (or are meant to). Not everyone is equally gifted, some are more orientated towards different gifts. Some excel at others, others not so much.


There are people that their ministry revolves around prophecy, others word of knowledge, and yet others healing. While some may dabble in these areas, they are not proficient in them. There seems to be levels to all of this.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I would like to point out that with the utterance manifestation (prophecy, kinds of tongues, interpretation of tongues - 1 Cor 12:10), it is the Spirit which gives the utterance.

In other words, the Spirit reveals the words to the believer and the believer speaks each word as it is revealed to him/her.

As I read through the thread, that thought came to my heart to share.

 

[BenFTW]

Hi Ben! Let's look at this - 1 Cor. 14:5 says . . .for greater is he that prophesies than he that speaks with tongues except he interpret. also 1 Cor. 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. Those verses seem to say that the one speaking in tongues interprets. With this in mind - 1 Cor. 14:27 If any man speak in a tongue, let it be by two or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. What is the closest antecedent to the pronoun "one"? I believe it is "man" - All are in harmony with each other and are saying the same thing.

Vine's Concise Dictionary of the Bible - allos and heteros have a difference in meaning, which is to be observed in numerous passages. allos expresses a numerical difference and denotes "another of the same sort"; heteros expresses a qualitative difference and denotes "another of a different sort". So, another doesn't mean to one individual, to another individual, and to another individual because that would contradict what was said in v7 - But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to EVERY MAN. When taken as a whole, this section is really cool the way God basically separates the manifestations into three groups.

For to one [ὁ μέν] is given through the spirit a word of wisdom; and to another [ἄλλος allos] a word of knowledge; and to another [ἕτερος heteros] faith; to another [ἄλλος allos] the gifts of healing; to another [ἄλλος allos] the working of miracles; to another [ἄλλος allos] prophecy; to another [ἄλλος allos ]discerning of spirits; to another [ἕτερος heteros] kinds of tongues; to another [ἄλλος allos] the interpretation of tongues . . .

1) The first two manifestations word of wisdom and word of knowledge are of the same kind or sort (allos); [v8]
2) faith, miracles, prophecy, and discerning of spirits are of the same sort or kind (allos) but different (heteros) from
Group 1 - [v9-10a]
3) Tongues and the interpretation of tongues, are different (heteros) from Group 2 but of the same kind (allos) as each other. [v10b]

(See how after word of wisdom and word of knowledge the section [v9-10a] starts off with heteros setting that grouping apart from the first grouping; and then the section [v10b] again starts off with heteros setting those last two as different from Group 2 . . . indicating the transition) . . . So there we have the three groups or three classes of manifestations. Pretty neat huh!!! Revelation manifestation - word of wisdom and word of knowledge; Power manifestations - faith, gifts of healing, miracles, prophecy, discerning of spirits and the worship manifestations - tongues and interpretation of tongues.

Where you guys believe that God giving the manifestation of the Spirit to every man means that everyone operates in the nine gifts of the Holy Spirit, I take it to mean that every person operates in the gifts of the Spirit (in general). That is to say, each of us has at least one gift. Each of us manifests that gift unto the edification of others.

Please understand, I completely get what you're saying and Shrume as well. I've heard it explained and while it makes sense, I am not so sure this is the case. It makes sense, but so does the other way, especially in terms of experience.

Either way, at least we agree about Continuationism.

 

[Waggles]

In other words, the Spirit reveals the words to the believer and the believer speaks each word as it is revealed to him/her.

As I read through the thread, that thought came to my heart to share.

Thankyou.
One of the great treasures of a proper disciplined Pentecostal meeting that
conducts the voice gifts of the Holy Spirit decently and in order;
is the gifts of prophecy.

herein God - that is both Jesus and the Father - speaks to his children,
speaks to his church, speaks to the saints.
No wonder Paul exhorts us all to desire this gift; for not only is the
speaker edified but the whole body of Christ.

Some one praised me as being "hard core" in respect to defending
and upholding Acts and Pentecost.
It is not just the of truth of the scriptures;
but Jesus described the Comforter as the Spirit of truth
who would abide within us and teach us of Jesus and discipleship;

In the gifts of prophecy God often speaks about stirring up the gift
of the Holy Ghost that dwells within us and commands us over
and over to pray in tongues for praying in tongues is a pure and
undefiled spiritual language that takes our prayers directly to the
throne of grace.
God tells us that he rejoices when we pray in tongues because we
are not wasting the most precious gift of the Holy Spirit given to
true worshippers.

 

[carl11]

The answer to your question is simple: because nobody is claiming that messages given by the Holy Spirit today are "scripture". They are revelations given to specific people in specific contexts. The prophecies of Philip's daughters weren't Scripture either, nor were the other prophecies given by Agabus. He was already recognized as a prophet before he spoke in Acts 11:28; how could that be, if your position were valid?

If you are given these words by God almighty who spoke and brought this world into existence, why would you not want to edify the body of Christ, the true church which are made up of all the true believers around this world. The book of Acts at the time it was written the Bible was not completed, but now it has been completed there are no more signs, no more revelations which would include the idea of speaking in tongues.

 

[UnderGrace]

tongues (glossa) is a pure and
undefiled spiritual language that takes our prayers directly to the
throne of grace.

Glossa is the Greek word for language, a real language, this is the word Paul used.

In Italian we say lingua, this means language or it can mean the actual tongue much like the Greek.

So then my question is this, where is the scripture which says this, that a glossa (real language) is a pure and undefiled spiritual language?

Thankyou.
One of the great treasures of a proper disciplined Pentecostal meeting that
conducts the voice gifts of the Holy Spirit decently and in order;
is the gifts of prophecy.

herein God - that is both Jesus and the Father - speaks to his children,
speaks to his church, speaks to the saints.
No wonder Paul exhorts us all to desire this gift; for not only is the
speaker edified but the whole body of Christ.

Some one praised me as being "hard core" in respect to defending
and upholding Acts and Pentecost.
It is not just the of truth of the scriptures;
but Jesus described the Comforter as the Spirit of truth
who would abide within us and teach us of Jesus and discipleship;

In the gifts of prophecy God often speaks about stirring up the gift
of the Holy Ghost that dwells within us and commands us over
and over to pray in tongues for praying in tongues is a pure and
undefiled spiritual language that takes our prayers directly to the
throne of grace.
God tells us that he rejoices when we pray in tongues because we
are not wasting the most precious gift of the Holy Spirit given to
true worshippers.

 

[UnderGrace]

Hmmm I asked that same question?

How do you know whether or not someone else at the meeting is willing to interpret?

I believe it means "that same one". IE: the person who has just spoken in tongues.


No. Three different people speak in tongues and interpret, one after the other (in order).


I do see your point. But if it is to be understood that way, then Paul is contradicting himself in 1 Cor 14:5 and 14:13. I believe the whole "for to one...to one...to another...to another" phrasing can be understood as different types of manifestations. It is something I need to get more confident on..


How do you know whether or not someone else at the meeting is willing to interpret?

 

[Waggles]

Glossa is the Greek word for language, a real language, this is the word Paul used.
In Italian we say lingua, this means language or it can mean the actual tongue much like the Greek.

So then my question is this, where is the scripture which says this, that a glossa (real language) is a pure and undefiled spiritual language?

God himself says that it is through the gift of prophecy at our meetings.
If you wish to dispute this then I suggest you take the matter up with
the Lord.
I explained it in my post # 210

 

[Waggles]

So then my question is this, where is the scripture which says this, that a glossa (real language) is a pure and undefiled spiritual language?

That praying in tongues is a spiritual prayer language undefiled nor polluted
by our sinful natures is indirectly attested to by James in his epistle:

3 Behold, we put bits in the horses' mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn
about their whole body.
4 Behold also the ships, which though they be so great, and are driven of fierce winds,
yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor lists.
5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasts great things. Behold, how great a matter
a little fire kindles!
6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members,
that it defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
7 For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed,
and hath been tamed of mankind:
8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after
the similitude of God.
10 Out of the same mouth proceeds blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not
so to be.
James 3:

 

[Dino246]

If you are given these words by God almighty who spoke and brought this world into existence, why would you not want to edify the body of Christ, the true church which are made up of all the true believers around this world. The book of Acts at the time it was written the Bible was not completed, but now it has been completed there are no more signs, no more revelations which would include the idea of speaking in tongues.

Scripture, logic and experience all trump your cessationist opinion. If you're going to argue against the continued operation of the Holy Spirit, at least have the intellectual integrity not to misrepresent the views of others.

Once again, please explain why, if every prophecy or word in tongues is equivalent with Scripture, were the prophecies of Philip's daughters and Agabus prior to Acts 11 not recorded as such?

 

[UnderGrace]

Sorry that is a huge stretch.

What you are basically saying is.....if I am not praying in some secret prayer language that I cannot even understand, then my prayers are defiled.

It is quite obvious the topic in James here is not even prayer

That praying in tongues is a spiritual prayer language undefiled nor polluted
by our sinful natures is indirectly attested to by James in his epistle:

3 Behold, we put bits in the horses' mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn
about their whole body.
4 Behold also the ships, which though they be so great, and are driven of fierce winds,
yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor lists.
5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasts great things. Behold, how great a matter
a little fire kindles!
6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members,
that it defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
7 For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed,
and hath been tamed of mankind:
8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after
the similitude of God.
10 Out of the same mouth proceeds blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not
so to be.
James 3:

 

[plainguy]

Sorry that is a huge stretch.

What you are basically saying is.....if I am not praying in some secret prayer language that I cannot even understand, then my prayers are defiled.

It is quite obvious the topic in James here is not even prayer

It's a huge stretch to even give it a "huge stretch" consideration. Unrelated topics being addressed entirely.

 

[Kavik]

"no man understands" refers to the one speaking in tongues - It is NOT a known language to the one speaking. Not to those in the church meeting. The "him" in the KJV is added. That is why it was so remarkable that the apostles spoke in the languages of the people present when they spoke in tongues . . . that is why the multitude were "confounded" when they heard them speak.

Not sure how one could ever make that conclusion – it does not refer to the one speaking but rather to those listening; there is no other way that can be interpreted/translated. Yes, the ‘him’ is added – it’s more or less understood/inferred from the context of the whole sentence.

People (at Pentecost) were confounded because they were expecting to hear Hebrew; the socially/religiously correct language to use on that occasion. What they heard and what confounded them was that they were hearing their own languages (only two were spoken by all Jews present) – Greek and Aramaic.

NASB - For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak unto men, but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries (secrets).

The original Greek has: pneumati de, lalei mystêria – “in spirit however, he utters mysteries”. No “his”. Though he’s praying earnestly and from the heart (i.e. in the spirit) he’s speaking ‘mysteries’ to those listening to him as they have no clue what he’s saying; to them his speech/language is a mystery.

Tongues are NOT meant to be used to "prove a point" to someone.

Though that may be true, tongues can in fact be studied and analyzed. That they are languages…or not, is a very testable claim.

Speaking in tongues is a language.

Language, whether spoken somewhere on this planet, an alien world, or in the spirit realm (heaven, by angles, etc.) are going to consist of certain elements which all language must have to be considered ‘language’; tongues simply does not meet any of these criteria.

And forbid not to speak with tongues (read: languages)

I think this makes perfect sense given that Paul was, after all, in the process of founding a religion (either wittingly or not). In order for it to spread, the more people that had access to its message, the better its success.

What better way to spread the word than to do it in people’s native languages rather than in some prescribed language (e.g. Judaism was originally restricted to Hebrew, Zoroastrianism is still to this day restricted to Avestan, etc.). Not restricting a religion by allowing access to it in only one language was a very novel idea/concept at this time.

In this sense, Paul is spot on; don’t forbid speaking other languages (it’s the best way to spread this new religion called Christianity). A great way to people to discuss it and practice it. In order to spread the word though, you may need to “speak with new tongues”, i.e. you’ll need to learn languages you probably didn’t even know existed in order to spread the message to people.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

In order to spread the word though, you may need to “speak with new tongues”, i.e. you’ll need to learn languages you probably didn’t even know existed in order to spread the message to people.

If I were to "learn languages [ I ] probably didn't even know existed in order to spread the message to people", I would then be speaking the gospel from my own understanding in a language I had studied and taken the time to learn.

That is not peaking in tongues according to Scripture.

Again, speaking in tongues is speaking words unknown to the speaker as the Spirit gives utterance. The Spirit moves within the born again one and reveals the words to him/her. The speaker speaks each word as it is revealed to him/her.