Stammering lips or a newly created heart ?

garee · Jan 26, 2019

Stammering (mocking, deriding, sarcastic) lips.

Is it a sign that confirms a person hears prophecy as a result of God working in them to both will and do His good pleasure .and they believe God? Or a sign that men refuse to hear and therefore do not believe God. as in "no faith" coming from the word of God, prophecy?

For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.Isaiah 28:11-13

Who is this people who will not hear? Is the sign in respect to them or in respect to those who will hear prophecy and believe God, as "mixing faith" in what they did hear?

Is there a outward sign of those who do hear prophecy the word of God, or is the sign they believe God in their newly created hearts and only God can see into it?

In the law it is written,(Isaiah 28:11-13) With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. 1 Corinthians 14:

Dino246 · Jan 26, 2019

Definition of "stammer" (from Merriam-Webster's online dictionary):
stammer
verb
stam·mer \ ˈsta-mər
stammered; stammering\ ˈsta-mə-riŋ, stam-riŋ \

intransitive verb
: to make involuntary stops and repetitions in speaking : stutter

transitive verb
: to utter with involuntary stops or repetitions

I don't see anything like "mocking", "deriding", or "sarcastic" in there.

louis · Jan 26, 2019

In my opinion Isaiah 28:11-13 is in regards to the Jews in Israel during the end times who refuse to hear, and instead prefer to believe in works of the law, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little.

garee · Jan 26, 2019

Dino246 said:

I would think to utter with involuntary stops or repetitions would represent again and again yet they refused to hear the word of God prophecy, a sign that they did not believe God.

Webster who fought against releasing slaves ? Why not the Strongs lexiocon

Strongs lexiocon….Through stammering בְּלַעֲגֵ֣י (be·la·'a·gei)3934: mocking

Or like the two translations below?

For with mocking lips and a foreign tongue he will speak to these people. NET Bible

The LORD will speak to these people. He will mock them by speaking in a foreign language.GOD'S WORD® Translation

garee · Jan 26, 2019

louis said:

I belive they will continue to refuse .But as to the reason I see that a little differently, rather as works of the "law of the fathers " law as commandments of men a false zeal for knowing God that comes after the oral traditions of men .

Revealing the nature of those who walk by sight killing to the misperceived competition as in out of sight out of mind .No need to walk by the faith that alone comes from hearing God through the scriptures as it is written when they can follow the oral tradition of the fathers

There we can see to be careful we can have the best teachers like Gamaliel and the assumed flesh but end up turning things upside down . Even receiving letters of authorization from the high pries to torture men and woman alike because they had the faith needed to believe God, and they had zero .

Acts 22 King James Version (KJV) 1-5Men, brethren, and fathers, hear ye my defence which I make now unto you. (And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence: and he saith,)I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.As also the high priest doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished.

Dino246 · Jan 26, 2019

garee said:

Stuttering is a physiological condition.

garee said:

garee · Jan 26, 2019

Dino246 said:

LOL...As those who refuse to hear God's prophecy and believe? and rather mock God with their oral traditions.?

As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, we will not hearken unto thee.But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.jerimiah 44: 16-17

Its still a physiological sign against them they refuse to hear the word of God. If they would hear the gospel and believe then they could let the mind of Christ work in them.

Rather then stuttering why not simply believe prophecy ? or do they who walk by sight need a sign before they can believe and making Christ into a circus seal for amusement must come first. .

ohn 6:30They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

John 4:48Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

Luke 11:29 And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.

J

garee · Jan 26, 2019

Christ made many sarcastic(to tear at the flesh or get under the skin) as replies in order to make a point to those who refused to hear prophecy and believe God. His words were like a thorn in their flesh pricking their consciences in a hope they would hear and believe the word of God . He called them a brood of vipers that spew out the poison of false prophecy saying their father was the father of lies

There are others.

Magenta · Jan 26, 2019

garee said:

I highly doubt (to the Nth degree) that Jesus stammered while making such barbed remarks

Dino246 · Jan 26, 2019

garee said:

No Garee, stuttering is stuttering. It's simply a physiological condition and not an indicator of spiritual condition. Or do you consider every person who stutters in real life to be one who refuses to believe God? If you do, that's pretty sick prejudice.

garee said:

You're not even reading the Scripture correctly. In Isaiah 28, it's not the ones doing the stammering who refuse to believe; it's the ones hearing. It says God will speak to them in stammering lips. Is God without the mind of Christ?

garee said:

More silly and irrelevant straw man arguments. Why can't you simply respond to what people claim in this thread instead of arguing against some nebulous, unidentified "them" and the claims "they" allegedly make (but which you are unable to quote)?

Angela53510 · Jan 26, 2019

This whole discussion could have been avoided, had a modern version been used, instead of the archaic KJV English. Instead, the NET (New English Translation) one of the best word for word translations, which does not follow the so-called KJV tradition, is clear Isaiah is talking about "mocking."

"11 For with mocking lips and a foreign tongue
he will speak to these people.
12 In the past he said to them,
“This is where security can be found.
Provide security for the one who is exhausted!
This is where rest can be found.”
But they refused to listen.
13 So the Lord’s word to them will sound like
meaningless gibberish,
senseless babbling,
a syllable here, a syllable there.
As a result, they will fall on their backsides when they try to walk,
and be injured, ensnared, and captured." NET Isa. 28:11-13

Please use a version that uses modern English, and does not follow the KJV tradition, and then we can discuss the merits of the OP, rather than arguing over words that have radically changed their meaning in over 400 years!

Hevosmies · Jan 26, 2019

Angela53510 said:

You know I love you, bu-bu-but the KING JIMMY is the best.

Journeyman · Jan 26, 2019

garee said:

I think he's talking about he religious leaders who rejected Jesus.

Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. Isa.28:14

After the Apostles spoke in different languages, the leaders had them beaten.

MattforJesus · Jan 26, 2019

garee said:

The Bible says that Jesus took away the physical ordinances of Israel, nailing them to His cross, for they were contrary to us, for they had no bearing on spiritual salvation, which include the physical sabbath days.

So let no person judge you by telling you to keep the physical sabbath day.

Jesus said concerning the kingdom of God, that it comes without physical observation, for they will not say here it is, or there it is, but the kingdom of God is within you.

When you receive the Spirit the kingdom of God is within you, for you display the ways of God on earth.

The physical sabbath given to the Jews because of the seventh day that God rested concerning this physical creation.

Jesus went away to prepare a place for the saints, a new heaven, and a new earth, the New Jerusalem, so the saints belong to that new earth, and it is a spiritual sabbath by the Spirit.

So we obey the sabbath by obeying to believe the Gospel, and receive the Spirit, and that spiritual rest.

Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
Isa 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

Speaking in tongues when a person has the Spirit, which this is the rest where the weary may rest, which Jesus said take His yoke upon you, and you will find rest for your souls, for His burden is easy, and His yoke is light, and this is the refreshing.

But many people would not hear, but said keep the physical sabbath day, which Jesus took away from those in the New Testament, and said do not give heed to them when they tell you to keep it.

garee · Jan 27, 2019

Magenta said:

Hi thanks for the reply. I would offer..

The word "stammering" is used twice.

Psalm 35:16
HEB: בְּ֭חַנְפֵי לַעֲגֵ֣י מָע֑וֹג חָרֹ֖ק
NAS: Like godless jesters at a feast,
KJV: With hypocritical mockers in feasts,
INT: godless jesters A feast gnashed
Isaiah 28:11
HEB: כִּ֚י בְּלַעֲגֵ֣י שָׂפָ֔ה וּבְלָשׁ֖וֹן
NAS: people Through stammering lips
KJV: For with stammering lips and another
INT: Indeed stammering lips tongue

Christ did not studder. Even though it sounded like shuddering words without meaning to those who refused to hear and therefore believe the gospel .

I would offer an example of those hypocritical mockers that God mocked when he fulfilled the prophecy of Joel in Acts 2 and gave his interpretation in the tongues of many nations. men, women and children...Therefore no longer in Hebrew tongue alone.

He sent those kind of "hypocritical mocking" Jew who refused to hear and believe prophecy a bill of divorcement . I think Isaiah 28 is part of that bill or law of divorce to show they are cut off from the promises he makes to His bride, the church .

As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, we will not hearken unto thee.But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.Jeremiah 44:16-17

It was like they stopped up their ears as a hard saying or offensive as used in John 6. Not hard to understand, again offensive to their ears . They walked away in unbelief (no faith) refusing to hear and believe. .

Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? John 6:60-61

They followed after the oral tradition of men making the word of God without effect as false prophecy or the oral traditions of natural unconverted man. False prophecy indicated by poison

Psalm 58:4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;

Jesus with stammering lip called the a brood or generation of vipers. (Jesus did not studder)

Matthew 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

garee · Jan 27, 2019

MattforJesus said:

The Bible says that Jesus took away the physical ordinances of Israel, nailing them to His cross, for they were contrary to us, for they had no bearing on spiritual salvation, which include the physical sabbath days.

So let no person judge you by telling you to keep the physical sabbath day.

Jesus said concerning the kingdom of God, that it comes without physical observation, for they will not say here it is, or there it is, but the kingdom of God is within you.

When you receive the Spirit the kingdom of God is within you, for you display the ways of God on earth.

The physical sabbath given to the Jews because of the seventh day that God rested concerning this physical creation.

Jesus went away to prepare a place for the saints, a new heaven, and a new earth, the New Jerusalem, so the saints belong to that new earth, and it is a spiritual sabbath by the Spirit.

So we obey the sabbath by obeying to believe the Gospel, and receive the Spirit, and that spiritual rest.

Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
Isa 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

Speaking in tongues when a person has the Spirit, which this is the rest where the weary may rest, which Jesus said take His yoke upon you, and you will find rest for your souls, for His burden is easy, and His yoke is light, and this is the refreshing.

But many people would not hear, but said keep the physical sabbath day, which Jesus took away from those in the New Testament, and said do not give heed to them when they tell you to keep it.

Great way of looking at that using "rest" that we do receive when we do hear God as he gives us the faith (not of ourselves ) to believe. believe, called mixing faith and therefore do not harden our hearts in unbelief (no faith) that is 24/ 7 called today .

obedienttogod · Jan 27, 2019

From the Torah: (Hebrew to proper English):

11 So with stammering lips, in a foreign accent, [ADONAI] will speak to this people.

12 He once told this people, "It's time to rest, the exhausted can rest, now you can relax" - but they wouldn't listen.

13 So now the word of ADONAI for them comes "precept by precept, precept by precept, line by line, line by line, a little here, a little there," so that when they walk, they stumble backward, and are broken, trapped and captured!

RickyZ · Jan 27, 2019

garee said:

No offense, but my first reaction is "oh like the cessationists?"

obedienttogod · Jan 27, 2019

stammering lips
שפתיים מגמגמות

לַעֲגָנִי
mocking, deriding

הִתוּלִי
comic, frivolous, humorous, comical, mocking, facetious

מְשַׁטֶה
mocking

JohnRH · Jan 27, 2019

garee said:

For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

Isn't this a prophesy of the coming Assyrian & Babylonian captivities? The Assyrians & Babylonians will speak to disobedient Israel & Judah with mocking (sing us one of the songs of Zion, etc.) and in a foreign language.

Deuteronomy 28:49 The LORD shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a
nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand;
Jeremiah 5:15 Lo, I will bring a nation upon you from far, O house of Israel, saith the LORD: it is a mighty nation, it is an
ancient nation, a nation whose language thou knowest not, neither understandest what they say.

Stammering lips or a newly created heart ?

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