Stars, Dust & Sand

[RR]

God promised Abraham that his seed would be multiplied greatly. To illustrate this God likened Abraham's seed to the stars of heaven, the dust of the earth, and the sand of the seashore - each multitudinous. But Bible Students have long seen that these terms convey a deeper meaning than just of a vast number. The stars picture the heavenly seed of Abraham, the church of the firstborn, and the sand the earthly seed of Abraham, which will ultimately include all of restored mankind. A thought which has appealed to some is that the dust of the earth refers to natural Israel -earthly, but to some extent distinct from the sand class of all mankind.

We agree with these identifications. And when we look to the narratives of Genesis dealing with the patriarchs, we find a consistency in the use of these terms.

Stars

Genesis 15. Abraham is asking for some assurance of God's promise of a child. At this time Abraham had no child at all, and it appeared that his inheritance would fall to "one born in my house" of servants - perhaps Eliezer, his steward, or a child of his. (Genesis 15:2, 3, cf. 14:14.) But the Lord assured him, "This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir." (vs. 4) The promised child, of course, was to be Isaac, who Paul tells us pictured the spiritual seed of Abraham. (Galatians 4:28) God responded by telling Abraham to "Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be." (vs. 5) So the promise of Isaac was specially tied to the stars, just as we would expect if the stars picture the spiritual seed of Abraham, as Isaac did.

And when God repeated the covenant to Isaac, after Abraham's death, it was the symbol of stars that God used to describe Isaac's seed. "I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries (as Genesis 15:18-21); and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed." (Genesis 26:4)

Dust

The symbol "dust of the earth" for Abraham's seed was mentioned on the occasion of Lot and Abraham separating, dividing the land because of their number. After Lot had chosen the well watered plains of Jordan, God said to Abraham: "Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered. Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee." (Genesis 13:14-17)

The land which was being promised was the land given later to the Israelites, and to which they are now regathered. The land promised was most pertinent to Abraham's natural seed, Israel. This aspect of Abraham's seed was likened to the dust of the earth. And when God repeated the covenant to Jacob, who in contrast to Isaac stands for the natural seed of Abraham, Israel after the flesh, it was the symbol "dust of the earth" that He used. And again, the land itself was an important part of the promise. "... the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed; And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: (as Genesis 13:14) and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed." (Genesis 28:13, 14)

Sand

This term appears first in connection with Abraham's offering of Isaac. That event pictured the death of Jesus as the Ransom for mankind, which assures the blessing of all those who will constitute the heavenly seed of Abraham, and those who will constitute the earthly seed in its widest scope. So it is consistent that on this occasion God likened Abraham's seed to "the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore ..." (Genesis 22:17)

In Revelation 20:8 the expression "sand of the sea" is applied to restored mankind. Satan will "... go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, the number of whom is as the sand of the sea."

 

[Nehemiah6]

,,,which will ultimately include all of restored mankind.

If you are promoting Universalism, it won't fly. the Bible does not teach Universalism at all.

 

[bluto]

God promised Abraham that his seed would be multiplied greatly. To illustrate this God likened Abraham's seed to the stars of heaven, the dust of the earth, and the sand of the seashore - each multitudinous. But Bible Students have long seen that these terms convey a deeper meaning than just of a vast number. The stars picture the heavenly seed of Abraham, the church of the firstborn, and the sand the earthly seed of Abraham, which will ultimately include all of restored mankind. A thought which has appealed to some is that the dust of the earth refers to natural Israel -earthly, but to some extent distinct from the sand class of all mankind.

We agree with these identifications. And when we look to the narratives of Genesis dealing with the patriarchs, we find a consistency in the use of these terms.

Stars

Genesis 15. Abraham is asking for some assurance of God's promise of a child. At this time Abraham had no child at all, and it appeared that his inheritance would fall to "one born in my house" of servants - perhaps Eliezer, his steward, or a child of his. (Genesis 15:2, 3, cf. 14:14.) But the Lord assured him, "This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir." (vs. 4) The promised child, of course, was to be Isaac, who Paul tells us pictured the spiritual seed of Abraham. (Galatians 4:28) God responded by telling Abraham to "Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be." (vs. 5) So the promise of Isaac was specially tied to the stars, just as we would expect if the stars picture the spiritual seed of Abraham, as Isaac did.

And when God repeated the covenant to Isaac, after Abraham's death, it was the symbol of stars that God used to describe Isaac's seed. "I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries (as Genesis 15:18-21); and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed." (Genesis 26:4)

Dust

The symbol "dust of the earth" for Abraham's seed was mentioned on the occasion of Lot and Abraham separating, dividing the land because of their number. After Lot had chosen the well watered plains of Jordan, God said to Abraham: "Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered. Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee." (Genesis 13:14-17)

The land which was being promised was the land given later to the Israelites, and to which they are now regathered. The land promised was most pertinent to Abraham's natural seed, Israel. This aspect of Abraham's seed was likened to the dust of the earth. And when God repeated the covenant to Jacob, who in contrast to Isaac stands for the natural seed of Abraham, Israel after the flesh, it was the symbol "dust of the earth" that He used. And again, the land itself was an important part of the promise. "... the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed; And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: (as Genesis 13:14) and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed." (Genesis 28:13, 14)

Sand

This term appears first in connection with Abraham's offering of Isaac. That event pictured the death of Jesus as the Ransom for mankind, which assures the blessing of all those who will constitute the heavenly seed of Abraham, and those who will constitute the earthly seed in its widest scope. So it is consistent that on this occasion God likened Abraham's seed to "the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore ..." (Genesis 22:17)

In Revelation 20:8 the expression "sand of the sea" is applied to restored mankind. Satan will "... go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, the number of whom is as the sand of the sea."

Since you quoted Genesis 22:17 I have a question for you? According to the context starting at Genesis 22:15 it says, "Then the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven, vs16, AND SAID, "By Myself I have SWORN declares the Lord, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son, Vs17, indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies."

Can you explain why it is that the angel of the Lord swears to multiply Abraham's seed?

In Him,
bluto

 

[Hakawaka]

Since you quoted Genesis 22:17 I have a question for you? According to the context starting at Genesis 22:15 it says, "Then the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven, vs16, AND SAID, "By Myself I have SWORN declares the Lord, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son, Vs17, indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies."

Can you explain why it is that the angel of the Lord swears to multiply Abraham's seed?

In Him,
bluto

Because:

In Jewish law, a shaliaḥ (Hebrew: שָלִיחַ, [ʃaˈliaχ]; pl. שְלִיחִים‎, sheliḥim [ʃliˈχim] or sheliah, literally "emissary" or "messenger") is a legal agent. In practice, "the shaliaḥ for a person is as this person himself."[1] Accordingly, a shaliaḥ performs an act of legal significance for the benefit of the sender, as opposed to him or herself.

God says He has given this angel His name and authority:

"Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him." Exodus 23:20-21

 

[bluto]

Thanks for your answer! Let me first say that your "sort" of right. The "Shaliach" principle, or the law of agency deals with the status of a person (known as the agent) acting by direction of another, the principal, and thereby legally binding the principal in his connection with a third person. In this case we have the angel of the Lord acting on behalf of God.

One of the problems with your answer is the fact that your "assuming" the angel of the Lord is an actual angel. This is impossible based on the context of Genesis 22 and at other Biblical passages. At Genesis 22:11, "But the angel of the Lord called to him from heaven, and said, "Abraham, Abraham" and he said "here I am." Vs12, "And he said, Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that your fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son from me." At verses 13-14 God provided Abraham with a sacrifice.

Vs15, "The then the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven. vs16, and said, "By Myself I have sworn declares the Lord, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son, vs17, "indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall posses the gate of their enemies."

In this case, the law of agency regarding the "Shaliach principle" does not apply. This is because angels cannot swear oaths on behalf of God. For one thing swearing an oath is a matter of ones own conscience. Hebrews 6:13-18 backs this up. Vs13, "For when God made the promise to Abraham, since He could not swear by no one greater, HE SWORE BY HIMSELF, vs14, "saying, I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply you." Vs16, "And thus, having patiently waited, he obtained the promise."

Vs16, "For men swear by one greater than themselves, and with them an oath given as confirmation IS AN END OF EVERY DISPUTE." Vs17, "In the same way God, desiring even more to show to the heirs of the promise the unchangeableness of His purpose, interposed with an oath, vs18, in order that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we may have strong encouragement, we who have fled for refuge in laying hold of the hope set before us." And just so you know, actual angels can swear oaths. Revelation 10:5-6, "And the angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land lifted up his right hand to heaven, vs6, "and swore by Him, (the Him is God Almighty) who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things in it, and the earth and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it, that there shall be delay no longer."

So, the question is, "Who is the angel of the Lord?" He is the preincarnate Jesus Christ. The angel of the Lord first appears in Scripture as the angel of the Lord at Genesis 16:7. Please the rest of the chapter and notice vs 13 where Hagar says, "Thou art a God who sees, for she said, "Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him." Jacob says the same thing at Genesis 32:30.

Now, there is not a question you can ask on this subject that I can't answer and I don't care what it is! Finally, I have a question for you? Genesis 17:1-3, "Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abrahm (and this was a physical appearance of God) and said to him. "I am God Almighty; Walk before Me and be blameless, vs2, And I will establish My covenant between Me and you, And I will multiply you exceedingly." Vs3, "And Abram fell on his face, And God talked with him." So Hakawaka, is the being that multiplied Hagar's descendants Genesis 16 the same being who multiplied Abram's descendants at Genesis 17:1-3?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[RR]

Can you explain why it is that the angel of the Lord swears to multiply Abraham's seed?

The angel is a messenger of God. God often spoke to his creations through angels.

 

[bluto]

The angel is a messenger of God. God often spoke to his creations through angels.

Please read my post #5 above.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Lifted_by_the_word]

Sand on the seashore=those of the Spirit.
The sea=water.
The land masses=blood.
Spirit,water,blood

The sun=Spirit.
Moon=water.
Earth=blood.
Spirit,water,blood.

Our sun is literally coming down to the earth with its rays and giving it's life force so there is life on earth.
In the heavens a star will explode and in it is life in the form of stardust.

Colossians 1:16-20
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

 

[RR]

Please read my post #5 above.

Angels aren't men

 

[bluto]

Angels aren't men

Bingo! That's why the angel of the Lord is not an actual angel. He's the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ. Did you not read what I wrote? Read it again.

IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
bluto

 

[Hakawaka]

Thanks for your answer! Let me first say that your "sort" of right. The "Shaliach" principle, or the law of agency deals with the status of a person (known as the agent) acting by direction of another, the principal, and thereby legally binding the principal in his connection with a third person. In this case we have the angel of the Lord acting on behalf of God.

One of the problems with your answer is the fact that your "assuming" the angel of the Lord is an actual angel. This is impossible based on the context of Genesis 22 and at other Biblical passages. At Genesis 22:11, "But the angel of the Lord called to him from heaven, and said, "Abraham, Abraham" and he said "here I am." Vs12, "And he said, Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that your fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son from me." At verses 13-14 God provided Abraham with a sacrifice.

Vs15, "The then the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven. vs16, and said, "By Myself I have sworn declares the Lord, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son, vs17, "indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall posses the gate of their enemies."

In this case, the law of agency regarding the "Shaliach principle" does not apply. This is because angels cannot swear oaths on behalf of God. For one thing swearing an oath is a matter of ones own conscience. Hebrews 6:13-18 backs this up. Vs13, "For when God made the promise to Abraham, since He could not swear by no one greater, HE SWORE BY HIMSELF, vs14, "saying, I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply you." Vs16, "And thus, having patiently waited, he obtained the promise."

Vs16, "For men swear by one greater than themselves, and with them an oath given as confirmation IS AN END OF EVERY DISPUTE." Vs17, "In the same way God, desiring even more to show to the heirs of the promise the unchangeableness of His purpose, interposed with an oath, vs18, in order that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we may have strong encouragement, we who have fled for refuge in laying hold of the hope set before us." And just so you know, actual angels can swear oaths. Revelation 10:5-6, "And the angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land lifted up his right hand to heaven, vs6, "and swore by Him, (the Him is God Almighty) who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things in it, and the earth and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it, that there shall be delay no longer."

So, the question is, "Who is the angel of the Lord?" He is the preincarnate Jesus Christ. The angel of the Lord first appears in Scripture as the angel of the Lord at Genesis 16:7. Please the rest of the chapter and notice vs 13 where Hagar says, "Thou art a God who sees, for she said, "Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him." Jacob says the same thing at Genesis 32:30.

Now, there is not a question you can ask on this subject that I can't answer and I don't care what it is! Finally, I have a question for you? Genesis 17:1-3, "Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abrahm (and this was a physical appearance of God) and said to him. "I am God Almighty; Walk before Me and be blameless, vs2, And I will establish My covenant between Me and you, And I will multiply you exceedingly." Vs3, "And Abram fell on his face, And God talked with him." So Hakawaka, is the being that multiplied Hagar's descendants Genesis 16 the same being who multiplied Abram's descendants at Genesis 17:1-3?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

I've heard of this and I knew you were gonna go there, the only problem is that the Bible is explicit that Jesus is NOT an angel.

JWs also identify Him as the archangel michael or angel of the Lord, which is just not accurate:

Hebrews 1:5 and following:
For to which of the angels did God ever say,

“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father

 

[Evmur]

God promised Abraham that his seed would be multiplied greatly. To illustrate this God likened Abraham's seed to the stars of heaven, the dust of the earth, and the sand of the seashore - each multitudinous. But Bible Students have long seen that these terms convey a deeper meaning than just of a vast number. The stars picture the heavenly seed of Abraham, the church of the firstborn, and the sand the earthly seed of Abraham, which will ultimately include all of restored mankind. A thought which has appealed to some is that the dust of the earth refers to natural Israel -earthly, but to some extent distinct from the sand class of all mankind.

We agree with these identifications. And when we look to the narratives of Genesis dealing with the patriarchs, we find a consistency in the use of these terms.

Stars

Genesis 15. Abraham is asking for some assurance of God's promise of a child. At this time Abraham had no child at all, and it appeared that his inheritance would fall to "one born in my house" of servants - perhaps Eliezer, his steward, or a child of his. (Genesis 15:2, 3, cf. 14:14.) But the Lord assured him, "This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir." (vs. 4) The promised child, of course, was to be Isaac, who Paul tells us pictured the spiritual seed of Abraham. (Galatians 4:28) God responded by telling Abraham to "Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be." (vs. 5) So the promise of Isaac was specially tied to the stars, just as we would expect if the stars picture the spiritual seed of Abraham, as Isaac did.

And when God repeated the covenant to Isaac, after Abraham's death, it was the symbol of stars that God used to describe Isaac's seed. "I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries (as Genesis 15:18-21); and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed." (Genesis 26:4)

Dust

The symbol "dust of the earth" for Abraham's seed was mentioned on the occasion of Lot and Abraham separating, dividing the land because of their number. After Lot had chosen the well watered plains of Jordan, God said to Abraham: "Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered. Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee." (Genesis 13:14-17)

The land which was being promised was the land given later to the Israelites, and to which they are now regathered. The land promised was most pertinent to Abraham's natural seed, Israel. This aspect of Abraham's seed was likened to the dust of the earth. And when God repeated the covenant to Jacob, who in contrast to Isaac stands for the natural seed of Abraham, Israel after the flesh, it was the symbol "dust of the earth" that He used. And again, the land itself was an important part of the promise. "... the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed; And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: (as Genesis 13:14) and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed." (Genesis 28:13, 14)

Sand

This term appears first in connection with Abraham's offering of Isaac. That event pictured the death of Jesus as the Ransom for mankind, which assures the blessing of all those who will constitute the heavenly seed of Abraham, and those who will constitute the earthly seed in its widest scope. So it is consistent that on this occasion God likened Abraham's seed to "the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore ..." (Genesis 22:17)

In Revelation 20:8 the expression "sand of the sea" is applied to restored mankind. Satan will "... go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, the number of whom is as the sand of the sea."

Hi

If God had shown these things to Adam you might have laid a firmer foundation for your doctrine for Adam is the father of all mankind. But He showed these things to Abraham who is the father of the believing. However ...

... However I think you are right to point out the diversity of similes, I been preaching that a whiles now, the stars and sand and dust [since we believe God is very precise in His words] do denote differences in sorts and inheritances.

I believe in a much, much WIDER MERCY than is generally held by evangelicals, both Catholic and Protestant down through the generations since the post apostolic times.

The idea that the last judgement will be black and white between a few straggly sheep on one side and billions and billions of goats on the other is nonsensical to me and always has been.

The reason it is understood that way is because the so-called fathers decided to do away with the MILLENNIUM, the thousand year reign of Christ on this earth with His saints. Which IS the Kingdom of Heaven, it's what the gospel is all about, it's what we are sent to preach, the Kingdom and more to the point the King, Jesus our Lord.

There WILL be the final judgement as shown in Matthew 25, and the righteous will be set on His right hand and the wicked on the left.

But this judgement takes place after the 1, 000 years, after we have reigned with Christ a 1, 000 years. There is therefore NO WAY that the church are to be judged at this judgement. Our judgement took place when we were raised up and raptured and more succinctly we were judged to be righteous when we believed in the atonement Jesus made for us at Calvary.

So the judgement of Matthew 25 shows that there is indeed an inheritance to be received to people other than the church. They shall inherit the earth. As it is written blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth.

The stars the heavenly seed
the dust of the earth the Jews [who also reign with Christ on earth during the Millennium]
the sand of the seashore the meek of the nations.

The wicked will be turned into Hell. That there is to be hell is certain for there are some very wicked people in this world doing very wicked things.

 

[RR]

Bingo! That's why the angel of the Lord is not an actual angel. He's the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ. Did you not read what I wrote? Read it again.

And what was the pre-incarnate Jesus, spirit or flesh?

 

[bluto]

And what was the pre-incarnate Jesus, spirit or flesh?

He appeared as a man/flesh. Please read Genesis 18:1-5. Take note of vs 1 where it says the Lord says the Lord appeared to Abraham in front of the tent door.

Abraham offered the Lord and the two angels food and water. Any other questions?

In Him,
bluto

 

[RR]

He appeared as a man/flesh. Please read Genesis 18:1-5. Take note of vs 1 where it says the Lord says the Lord appeared to Abraham in front of the tent door.

Abraham offered the Lord and the two angels food and water. Any other questions?

So the pre-human Jesus was a man of flesh? He was never a spirit being?

 

[bluto]

Look, there is only one God, period. In the Old Testament Deuteronomy 6:4. In the New Testament John 1:1 says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 4:24 says, "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and truth." This means that overall, God is a spiritual being.

Getting back to John 1, read vs14, "And the Word became flesh/became a man and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth." Now, I know you don't believe in the deity of Jesus Christ. Having said that please look at Philippians 2:5-10, "Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, vs6, who, although HE EXISTED IN THE FORM OF GOD, (the word although means, "in spite of the fact) that Jesus existed as God, vs7, He emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant/man, and being found in the likeness of men.

In other words, Jesus Christ who was already in the form of God/God, He took on another form, that is the form of men. This is why at vs8 it says, "And being found IN APPEARANCE AS A MAN." Now, use some common sense and look at vs10, "that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE SHOULD BOW, OF THOSE WHO ARE IN HEAVEN, AND ON EARTH." Vs11, "and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

If Jesus is not God but strictly a man like you and I why are we told that we have to bow down/worship Jesus Christ? In fact, at Hebrews 1:6 God the Father says, "And when He again brings the first-born into the world, He says, "AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM." Now what excuses are you going to come up with?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[RR]

If Jesus is not God but strictly a man like you and I why are we told that we have to bow down/worship Jesus Christ? In fact, at Hebrews 1:6 God the Father says, "And when He again brings the first-born into the world, He says, "AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM." Now what excuses are you going to come up with?

bluto, Jesus was the son of God, he came down to earth was born a man and died for our sins, about his death and resurrection, he ascended to heaven where he sits at the right hand of God. We worship Jesus because the scriptures tell us so. (Romans 1:3-5; 1 Cor. 15:3; Acts 2:33)

 

[Marilyn]

God promised Abraham that his seed would be multiplied greatly. To illustrate this God likened Abraham's seed to the stars of heaven, the dust of the earth, and the sand of the seashore - each multitudinous. But Bible Students have long seen that these terms convey a deeper meaning than just of a vast number. The stars picture the heavenly seed of Abraham, the church of the firstborn, and the sand the earthly seed of Abraham, which will ultimately include all of restored mankind.

I was taught and believe a bit differently.

The `stars of heaven,` refers to some in Israel (OT saints) who looked for a city, (Heb. 11: 16, in the Universal realm). The stars are prominent but not predominant in heaven. The Body of Christ is the predominant rule in the third heaven on Christ`s own throne. (Rev. 3: 21)

The `sand of the seashore` refers to Israel being predominant, the ruler over the nations on the earth.

 

[bluto]

bluto, Jesus was the son of God, he came down to earth was born a man and died for our sins, about his death and resurrection, he ascended to heaven where he sits at the right hand of God. We worship Jesus because the scriptures tell us so. (Romans 1:3-5; 1 Cor. 15:3; Acts 2:33)

I have not forgotten you RR. You claim you worship Jesus because He is the Son of God. Do you actually believe that Jesus is God? I ask because Thomas at John 20:28 said to Jesus, "My Lord and my God.?" Do you agree with Thomas?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[RR]

I have not forgotten you RR. You claim you worship Jesus because He is the Son of God. Do you actually believe that Jesus is God? I ask because Thomas at John 20:28 said to Jesus, "My Lord and my God.?" Do you agree with Thomas?

Hmmm ... yes, this is one of those verses often used in an attempt to prove the Trinity doctrine. Let's notice Thomas didn't mention the holy Spirit. He would have needed to do so for this verse to sustain any Trinity connotation. Failing in this, it becomes, at best, a stool with only two legs—not good to stand on. Now this verse reveals Thomas’ happy response to finding his Master appearing before him. Remember, he was slow to believe in Jesus’ resurrection, and it took this personal interchange with Him to make a true believer out of him. He was the last of the Apostles to have been honored with a visit from the Master after his resurrection. It probably hurt his feelings to think that so many others had met with the resurrected Lord and he hadn't been so blessed.

Thomas resolved: “Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe [in his resurrection]” (John 20:25). Did Thomas believe that it was God the Father who was dead? Of course not. But if he believed Jesus was God, how could he believe that it was Jesus who was dead? Yet if anything at all is clear, it's that Thomas did believe Jesus was dead and was overjoyed to find him alive.

When Jesus offered to fulfill all the necessary conditions to make him believe his resurrection, Thomas cried out, “My [the] Lord and my [the] God” (John 20:28). God here is a translation of the Greek THEOS, which is defined by Dr. Young as “God, a god, object of worship.” It's a general term in the New Testament, used frequently to denote the Heavenly Father (such as in Matt. 27:46, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me,” and in many additional places). However, it's also used to depict other beings, whether good or bad. THEOS is used to describe Satan, “the god of this world” (2 Cor. 4:4), the saints, “gods, sons of the Most High” (John 10:34, 35, from Ps. 82:6, RSV), idols, or fabricated “gods who will go before us” (Acts 7:40), and heathen gods, “the gods have come down to us in human form!” (Acts 14:11, 12). Hence, THEOS is quite general in its application in Scripture, and the fact that it is occasionally used of Jesus should not be taken as proof that he was God the Father. Such usage alone is not conclusive to warrant such a distinction.

Remember, the Jews had earlier accused Jesus of blasphemy because, being a man, he made himself “God”—but this was a false and exaggerated accusation against Jesus which he never is recorded as saying. Jesus’ response was, “Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the Scripture cannot be broken; say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?” (John 10:34-36). Even to be called God was not earthshaking. Jesus pointed out that those to whom the Word of God came were called “gods.” (The original early manuscripts were written with all capitals. Hence, translators must decide whether to capitalize or not.) But Jesus did clarify who he was. He said, “I am the Son of God.”

Did Thomas now believe something different than Jesus claimed for himself? If those to whom the word of God came were called “gods,” what would be extraordinary about Thomas calling Jesus “My Lord and my God”? Herod’s voice was called “god’s” voice, and Paul was called “god” (Acts 12:22; 28:6). This, undoubtedly, was a very emotional moment for Thomas and certainly not an attempt on his part to offer advanced theology. The fact that he says “the Lord” and “the God” seems appropriate to his emotional state wherein he accepts Jesus as his resurrected “the Lord” and “the God.” His very Jewishness prohibits us from concluding he thought Jesus was “God the Father.” He couldn't possibly have fused Jesus and God the Father into one. Jesus had been his “Lord” (or “Master”), and now, believing his resurrection, he accepts him as his “God” (or “mighty one”).

Now, in addition to the foregoing, there's an alternative explanation that should be considered. This was an emotion-filled moment for Thomas, a moment about which he had spent much time in prayer to God. It may be that Thomas was merely crying out to God, his Father, “My Lord and my God” as an exclamation for answering his prayers. Today, people cry out “My God” in moments of overwhelming sorrow or joy. Jesus cried out, “My God, my God” on the cross. This may be what Thomas meant by his expression on this occasion. There is nothing to preclude this thought. One thing we know, his assertion did not include the holy Spirit, and therefore the Trinity cannot have been implied. The Apostle John, who wrote his Gospel long years after Pentecost, likewise did not believe Jesus was God. John quotes Jesus’ reminder to Mary, saying, “I ascend to my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God” (John 20:17). Jesus had the same Father and God as Mary. Additionally, John sums up his lesson covering these events, saying, “But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name” (John 20:31). The Apostle Thomas was a Jew who held to the view that the “LORD our God is one.” To argue that he forsook his Jewish religious training at the moment in question and received Jesus as (the) God the Father is an unlikely scenario. John, who is aged and serene while writing his Gospel, summarizes this entire chapter saying, “Jesus is the Christ, the son of God.” That’s what he wanted us to believe—and that’s what Thomas believed as well.