Talking against the law is dangerous

[Zinzerio]

Why is it some scripture is believed but not all scripture together which makes up the 'whole' word of God? You want to pound Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. And how do we establish that law? THROUGH FAITH Then you come in and say this - directly contrary to the word of God - 'A law that is established is certainly not abolished or nailed to the cross'. But yet God's word tell us this:
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; . . . . . . .

Grace is NOT A REWARD for not sinning . . . that just about makes me sick to my stomach. Grace is God's unconditional, unmerited love toward us and God doesn't just love when we do not sin - we need his love more when we do err and to help keep us from erring.

I think we all know what sin is because without the law there is no sin - without the law we would not have the knowledge of sin. But let's read - 1 John 3:1-4

Behold, (Behold!!) what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and if doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (this is the only time we will be completely sinless - law or no law) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

So beautiful . . . .

i will reply to you but now i must go i have blary eyes and as of this moment i can no see but this one thing i should tell you if you are sick in your stomach what you must do is turn that in to love because if you dont that sick can become hate

 

[Zinzerio]

and as you know love your enemy is also a law of God yes no i think yes

 

[chubbena]

Talking against the law is dangerous.
Paul had to stand trial before Felix because of that.
Instead of holding on to his belief, like what he said in his letter to the Galatians, he said:
My accusers did not find me arguing with anyone at the temple, or stirring up a crowd in the synagogues or anywhere else in the city. And they cannot prove to you the charges they are now making against me. However, I admit that I worship the God of our ancestors as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets, and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Thanks to the counter arguments to the OP now I understand Paul. He's but a big chicken.

 

[haz]

If you think I'm advocating obedience in the flesh, or by works only without faith, you have not read my previous posts.

Below are some excerpts from your previous posts to confirm what I have been saying.

Originally Posted by just-me
the Ten Commandments are only just a portion of our responsibility concerning what God has instructed.
When Jesus brings us out from underneath the law, we have the Holy Spirit giving us the capability to see the law in a totally different perspective. Even though our flesh wars against being submissive to the law, with our renewed mind, we have a sincere desire to keep the law of our responsibility in every avenue of our lives. So yes, our responsibility can be seen as physical, but the principles of the law are kept and motivated by the gift of faith.


In summary we desire to keep the law of our responsibility (starting with Exodus chapter 20 through 23) because we are motivated by faith and the indwelling Holy Spirit. So that makes the "Ten Commandments" that are part of the law, our responsibility to keep by the the Holy Spirit of God. That's why I say that the law has to be seen in Spirit, not physical.


What is important about the Sabbath day (whenever it really is) is to cease doing our own works, and do God's works.

Spiritually motivated, by faith is the key. We still have a fleshly body that we constantly need to fight and put into submission to the inner man where the new temple is located.

Originally Posted by just-me
I will just quote some of Romans chapter 1, and then say I agree with it.

Romans 1:19-20 (KJV)
Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death

The others I had debated who followed a similar doctrine to you were likewise obscure in their message. It's an interesting similarity.

But as the above quotes from you show, you are pointing to physical obedience to the law, albeit "Spiritually motivated, by faith".
The quotes of yours above also shows that you agree that those who fail to obey the law (10 commandments +) as you describe above, are worthy of death.

Any chance you could answer those questions as to how much obedience to the law is required to demonstrate the working of the Holy Spirit within a Christian?

I'll be back again tomorrow. It's late night here at the top end of the world (Australia)

 

[john832]

I might have misunderstood your statement of " In fact, David will be king over all Israel in the Millenium..."
Christ Jesus is of the house of David, and He shall rule.
I say AMEN on everything else you mentioned.

Christ is King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Under Him will be David, king of Israel. Under David are the twelve...

Mat 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

There will be places of rulership for Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Noah, Daniel and Job. In fact there is a complete governmental structure to be built...

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Christ tells us where David and the Twelve are, we can infer where others might be and then He also tells His disciples this...

Luk 19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

Tie this in with Acts 1:11. Christ went to heaven and is currently there sitting with the Father on His throne...

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

When He returns, He takes the throne of David and is King of Kings. There is rulership under Him in a governmental structure.

Luk 19:13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
Luk 19:14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
Luk 19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
Luk 19:16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
Luk 19:17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.

This is a big hint as to what the rewards are that Christ brings with Him...

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Luk 19:18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
Luk 19:19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.

And according to the growth of each individual and their works...

Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

They are given rewards in the Kingdom of God.

 

[just-me]

Talking against the law is dangerous.
Paul had to stand trial before Felix because of that.
Instead of holding on to his belief, like what he said in his letter to the Galatians, he said:
My accusers did not find me arguing with anyone at the temple, or stirring up a crowd in the synagogues or anywhere else in the city. And they cannot prove to you the charges they are now making against me. However, I admit that I worship the God of our ancestors as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets, and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Thanks to the counter arguments to the OP now I understand Paul. He's but a big chicken.

Facetious I presume. It says a lot about this thread and the contributions.

Paul was arrested because he taught the truth, henceforth revealing mans traditions without instigating controversy. He admittedly said that he was Pharisee. He knew Jewish tradition very well. Felix kept him in prison because the Jews liked it. Paul was caught by defining what was right by what he knew of the law and the prophets. He taught against the tradition of the Jews by the very scriptures that they had, and the Jews couldn't handle it, so they threw him in prison. He wasn't about ready to give up what he believed in, and neither can I.

Festus came to Paul's defense by talking to Agrippa.

He said "There is a certain man left in bonds by Felix: Against whom when the accusers stood up, they brought none accusation of such things as I supposed: But had certain questions against him of their own superstition, and of one Jesus, which was dead, whom Paul affirmed to be alive."

 

[john832]

Why is it some scripture is believed but not all scripture together which makes up the 'whole' word of God? You want to pound Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. And how do we establish that law? THROUGH FAITH Then you come in and say this - directly contrary to the word of God - 'A law that is established is certainly not abolished or nailed to the cross'. But yet God's word tell us this:
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; . . . . . . .

The blotting out of "handwriting of ordinances" is not the nailing of the Law to the cross, I refer you to Dr. Robert Thiel, I have quoted this often.

What Does Colossians 2:14 Really Say?

It is of interest to note that the expression "the handwriting of requirements" is a Greek legal term that signifies the penalty which a lawbreaker had to pay--through Jesus the penalty was wiped out ("the handwriting of requirements"), not the law! "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them" (Heb 10:16).

Even Protestant commentators realize this. Notice what Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible states about Colossians 2:14:

Whatever was in force against us is taken out of the way. He has obtained for us a legal discharge from the hand-writing of ordinances, which was against us (v. 14), which may be understood,

1. Of that obligation to punishment in which consists the guilt of sin. The curse of the law is the hand-writing against us, like the hand-writing on Belshazzar's wall. Cursed is every one who continues not in every thing. This was a hand-writing which was against us, and contrary to us; for it threatened our eternal ruin. This was removed when he redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us, Gal 3:13. (from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible: New Modern Edition, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1991 by Hendrickson Publishers, Inc.).

Some will argue that you still cannot keep the ten commandments (for "all have sinned"), even if they are all mentioned as being in effect after the crucifixion. Does this mean one should not try?

Furthermore, let's look at another translation:

14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross (Colossians 2:14, NASB)

The handwriting of requirements (often also called the hand-writing of ordinances) or certificate of debt was wiped away and nailed to the cross.

Which requirements were wiped out?

Please understand that the expression "the handwriting of requirements" (cheirógrafon toís dógmasin) is a Greek legal expression that signifies the penalty which a lawbreaker had to pay--it does not signify the laws that are to be obeyed--only the penalty. It is only through the acceptance of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ that the penalty was wiped out ("the handwriting of requirements"). But only the penalty, not the law!

Were the Ten Commandments Nailed to the Cross

I would recommend reading the entire article.

Grace is NOT A REWARD for not sinning . . . that just about makes me sick to my stomach. Grace is God's unconditional, unmerited love toward us and God doesn't just love when we do not sin - we need his love more when we do err and to help keep us from erring.

I would agree that it is unearned, unmerited pardon for sin, except it is not unconditional. God does not forgive the unrepentant. Consider a serial child molester who continues to practice child molestation without remorse. This person is not in the grace of God and will not be until he/she quits preying on children (repents), seeks God's forgiveness and then continues in a life free of that abominable sin.

I think we all know what sin is because without the law there is no sin - without the law we would not have the knowledge of sin. But let's read - 1 John 3:1-4

This statement contradicts your opening statement. In the opening you stated the Law was nailed to the cross. What was nailed to the cross was the note of debt we carry for breaking the Law. What is typically taught is the Law is done away by grace. In actuality, grace is the (not so) free, unearned, unmeritied pardon for breaking the Law.

Behold, (Behold!!) what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and if doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (this is the only time we will be completely sinless - law or no law) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

So beautiful . . . .

That I totally agree with...

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

A person may be begotten (I John 5:18, I Pet 1:3, I John 5:1) now but is born at the resurrection.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

I agree that there is a change from the physical to the spiritual, and if I might add, in us who belleive. Where we part company is when people say the “rules” have changed by changing the priesthood to the tribe of Judah. That is not a rule that we have to follow. The Father and the Son predetermined that change before time began. It is also prophesied. When you insinuate that the rules didn’t work so they were nailed to the cross, it sounds as if the rules (being God’s ordinances) were crucified at Calvary. When you say “JESUS TOOK AND NAILED THEM TO THE CROSS WITH HIM BECAUSE THEY WERE AGAINST US” you are clearly pointing to God’s words, instead of the enmity that sin causes (the physical punishment for sin) that Jesus destroyed on the cross. The rules are the laws, which Jesus did NOT come to destroy, are still in effect according to His own words. He came to save us “from our sins that condemn us to death.

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid

Romans 8:2-9 (KJV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Rhetorically asking; Is the law of sin God’s law, or a *law in our members that is carnal, and sinful? Henceforth the law of sin and death is NOT God’s law, it’s our law. The first failed because of man’s transgression against the rules. It was meant to be that way, “But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,” Galatians 4:4 (KJV) It was always meant to be that way. First things first.

Romans 7:23 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But I see another *law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

I have never said the the rules changed because of the changing of the priesthood to the tribe of Judah. I didn't insinuate that the rules didn't work so they were nailed to the cross - God said that Jesus Christ 'blotted out the handwritting of ordinances that was against us, which were contrary to us [I also gave them statutes that were not good and ordinances by which they could not live;], and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross' [one of the definitions for this 'blotting out' is "to cover with lime". It made me think about when something is dead you cover it with lime to cover up the stink.] This whole Romans thing is a comparison of the 'old man' (flesh) warring against the 'new man' (spirit). Basically 7:8a But sin taking occasion [that by which an endeavor is excited and from which it goes forth] by the commandment, wrought [accomplished, performed] in me all manner of concupiscence [desire for what is forbidden, lust]. The commandment brings about a desire for what is forbidden. Ever notice how when someone is told NOT to do something they want to do it all the more? We are flesh - we did not become a perfect person when we were born again. Romans 7 is a perfect example of the fight we fight. And we will be in the flesh until Christ returns. As we fight the good fight - our flesh will die daily -

Let us add the word “glorious” to this scripture. 2 Corinthians 3:6-8 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

was glorious (past tense) verse 8 (present tense to the believer in Christ)

the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious - for the letter killeth
how shall not the ministration of the spirit be MORE glorious
Yes, this present covenant - this better testament is MORE glorious - because it gives life not death - the spirit giveth life.

Hebrews 8:7 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Again, as we have talked before, “covenant” is an added word that is NOT in the original manuscript. When the first part of this chapter begins the writer is explaining temple worship. So this phrase relates directly to the “first covenant” with a physical temple made with hands.

If we really look at it v1 the subject is the high priest - v1 We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne. . . v2 a minister . . . v3 high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices (Levitical law) v4 priest offering gifts in accordance to the law v5 who served as an example and shadow v6 But now he (Jesus Christ our high priest) is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first 'temple' had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. (Actually so far the subject hasn't even been the temple but we shall follow) v8-12 quotes from OT concerning a new covenant to be made . . v13 In that he saith, A new 'temple' he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. So you want to take two verses in this chapter and say that because 'covenant' is italicized it is added (to which I agree) it should be 'temple' - I just don't see it relating to the whole chapter.

Acts 7:48 (KJV)
[SUP]48 [/SUP]Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
Where does the Holy Spirit of God dwell now if not on the mercy seat of the old temple?

God in Christ dwells in me - God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself (2 Cor. 5:19) and Christ is in me, the hope of glory via the gift of holy Spirit.

Romans 7:5-13 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

The phrase “The law is holy” is present tense.
He dwells within us, because we are the new temple not made with hands.

He dwells within us not because of any law - but he dwells in us as his sons and daughters being now born again of Spirit - [That which is born of the spirit is Spirit] We are new creations in Christ - not because of some law - but by faith. Again, Romans 7 is just the war between the flesh and the spirit - that old man and the new man.

Acts 17:24 (KJV)

[SUP]24 [/SUP]God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

1 Corinthians 3:16 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

See post #380

You really need to stop cherry picking verses and stick to the context - Yes, God dwells not in temples made with hands - but why? Because we follow Levitical Law? NOPE. . .
God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; that they should seed the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: for in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. - And what makes all this possible - the law or faith? Jesus Christ accomplished this through his death on the cross and our faith in him makes all this possible.

 

[just-me]

Below are some excerpts from your previous posts to confirm what I have been saying.



The others I had debated who followed a similar doctrine to you were likewise obscure in their message. It's an interesting similarity.

But as the above quotes from you show, you are pointing to physical obedience to the law, albeit "Spiritually motivated, by faith".
The quotes of yours above also shows that you agree that those who fail to obey the law (10 commandments +) as you describe above, are worthy of death.

Any chance you could answer those questions as to how much obedience to the law is required to demonstrate the working of the Holy Spirit within a Christian?

I'll be back again tomorrow. It's late night here at the top end of the world (Australia)

Is it not said in scripture to put ourselves in subjection to the Spirit of God?

Hebrews 12:9 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Again I say, we can only be subject to the law of God by His Spirit, not by the flesh. We are justified by faith that establishes this. To be obedient to the law in Spirit, we are also obedient to God. Can we be perfect by obeying the law other than in the Spirit of the law? I say no. It's the motive of our mind's desire toward God, not the motive of our flesh that wars against His Spirit. I thought that I had made that clear.

You ask "Any chance you could answer those questions as to how much obedience to the law is required to demonstrate the working of the Holy Spirit within a Christian?"

I could answer it if it were asked ....... Any chance you could answer those questions as to how much obedience to God ​(Who spoke the law into existence), is required to demonstrate the working of the Holy Spirit within a Christian?

My answer is to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. Deuteronomy 6:15 And I would add that this is a summary of the commanded laws. He gives them to test our desire toward Him.

Deuteronomy 13:3 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Show yourself to yourself, and remember what you say when looking into the perfect law of this liberty. "For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." James 1:23-25 (KJV)

And again I say, Paul said with his mind (thoughts,if you will) served the law of God. Tempting the Lord is putting His words into our own categories of importance. It's all or nothing. If we are guilty of disobeying one law, we are guilty of all. This is not the same as if we are obedient to some laws, we are obedient to all the laws. Motivation of loving God so much that one desires to follow all that He has ever said. Can we do that? No that's why Jesus said "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me." Luke 9:23 (KJV)

What do these words of Jesus mean to you?

 

[just-me]

I just don't understand you. There is a change from the physical to the spiritual because the letter killed, that ministration was death - NO ONE has said anything about changing God's words - the rules changed that's all . . . they didn't disappear, they are still there but we are not under bondage to do them. THEY DID NOT WORK THE FIRST TIME . . . JESUS TOOK AND NAILED THEM TO THE CROSS WITH HIM BECAUSE THEY WERE AGAINST US.

I thought you were saying that God's ordinances didn't work so Jesus was crucified with them. I read what you wrote as "They" being the rules, rather that "they" being the sin. I asked my wife about the way you put it and she said that's what she saw also.

I have never said the the rules changed because of the changing of the priesthood to the tribe of Judah. I didn't insinuate that the rules didn't work so they were nailed to the cross - God said that Jesus Christ 'blotted out the handwritting of ordinances that was against us, which were contrary to us [I also gave them statutes that were not good and ordinances by which they could not live;], and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross' [one of the definitions for this 'blotting out' is "to cover with lime". It made me think about when something is dead you cover it with lime to cover up the stink.] This whole Romans thing is a comparison of the 'old man' (flesh) warring against the 'new man' (spirit). Basically 7:8a But sin taking occasion [that by which an endeavor is excited and from which it goes forth] by the commandment, wrought [accomplished, performed] in me all manner of concupiscence [desire for what is forbidden, lust]. The commandment brings about a desire for what is forbidden. Ever notice how when someone is told NOT to do something they want to do it all the more? We are flesh - we did not become a perfect person when we were born again. Romans 7 is a perfect example of the fight we fight. And we will be in the flesh until Christ returns. As we fight the good fight - our flesh will die daily -

Sorry, I guess I misread what you posted.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

The blotting out of "handwriting of ordinances" is not the nailing of the Law to the cross, I refer you to Dr. Robert Thiel, I have quoted this often.

What Does Colossians 2:14 Really Say?

It is of interest to note that the expression "the handwriting of requirements" is a Greek legal term that signifies the penalty which a lawbreaker had to pay--through Jesus the penalty was wiped out ("the handwriting of requirements"), not the law! "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them" (Heb 10:16).

Even Protestant commentators realize this. Notice what Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible states about Colossians 2:14:

Whatever was in force against us is taken out of the way. He has obtained for us a legal discharge from the hand-writing of ordinances, which was against us (v. 14), which may be understood,

1. Of that obligation to punishment in which consists the guilt of sin. The curse of the law is the hand-writing against us, like the hand-writing on Belshazzar's wall. Cursed is every one who continues not in every thing. This was a hand-writing which was against us, and contrary to us; for it threatened our eternal ruin. This was removed when he redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us, Gal 3:13. (from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible: New Modern Edition, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1991 by Hendrickson Publishers, Inc.).

Some will argue that you still cannot keep the ten commandments (for "all have sinned"), even if they are all mentioned as being in effect after the crucifixion. Does this mean one should not try?

Furthermore, let's look at another translation:

14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross (Colossians 2:14, NASB)

The handwriting of requirements (often also called the hand-writing of ordinances) or certificate of debt was wiped away and nailed to the cross.

Which requirements were wiped out?

Please understand that the expression "the handwriting of requirements" (cheirógrafon toís dógmasin) is a Greek legal expression that signifies the penalty which a lawbreaker had to pay--it does not signify the laws that are to be obeyed--only the penalty. It is only through the acceptance of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ that the penalty was wiped out ("the handwriting of requirements"). But only the penalty, not the law!

Were the Ten Commandments Nailed to the Cross

I would recommend reading the entire article.

E.W. Bullinger - The Church Epistles: Romans to Thessalonians Colossians 2:11-14 Ordinances therefore done away in Christ

in whom ye were circumcised (at Christ's burial) with a circumcision not done by hand (i.e. spiritual, not material not a ceremony performed on the eighth day) in the putting off of the (whole) body (that is to say) the flesh (by reckoning ourselves as having died with Christ) by the circumcision of Christ (i.e. accomplished by Christ) having been buried together with him in his baptism. (Thus far we have the end of the Old Man; Now we come to the origin of the New Man), wherein (in his burial) ye were raised with him also through faith of the operation of God who hath raised him from the dead. And you being (ontas , being, as marking the state, i.e. judicially viewed as)
dead in your sins (dead as regards your sins) and the uncircumcision of your flesh (i.e. your uncircumcised state as Gentiles) he hath quickened even you together with him having forgiven you of all trespasses - by cancelling the bond standing against us with its demands ( Eph. 2:15 "the law of commandments contained in ordinances.") which (bond) was directly opposed to us, he hath taken it (i.e. the bond [also as well as the body of flesh]) right away, having nailed it (the bond) to his cross having spoiled principalities . . .
The ordinances referred to here belonged to the rites and ceremonies of religion as distinct from Christianity. In Christ they are done away. The Holy Spirit teaches us here, through Paul, that for those who are in union with Christ the head, as members of his body, these ordinances have been fulfilled, and are ended and done away in the body of his flesh through his death. To return to them, therefore, in any way, is to deny our completeness and perfection in Christ. It is practically to say that he is not sufficient, that something further is necessary to be added to him, that in spite of all he has done we are incomplete, and need some ordinance to make us quite complete.

I would agree that it is unearned, unmerited pardon for sin, except it is not unconditional. God does not forgive the unrepentant. Consider a serial child molester who continues to practice child molestation without remorse. This person is not in the grace of God and will not be until he/she quits preying on children (repents), seeks God's forgiveness and then continues in a life free of that abominable sin.

Oh, sorry yep it is not unconditional - it is unconditional only to those who have confessed Jesus Christ as their Lord - reliance on faith in the only begotten Son of God - then grace is unconditional to the believer I guess I should have said

This statement contradicts your opening statement. In the opening you stated the Law was nailed to the cross. What was nailed to the cross was the note of debt we carry for breaking the Law. What is typically taught is the Law is done away by grace. In actuality, grace is the (not so) free, unearned, unmeritied pardon for breaking the Law.

I don't see any contradiction. I do not see grace as freedom for sinning.

That I totally agree with...

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

A person may be begotten (I John 5:18, I Pet 1:3, I John 5:1) now but is born at the resurrection.

1 John 3:9 Where is it that a person sins? in the flesh, i.e. old man Where is it where a person cannot sin? in the Spirit, i.e. new man It is by the Spirit that resides in us that our heavenly Father sees us - holy, sanctified, righteous, and justified.

So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. - no way, no how can we attempt to please God in the flesh.

 

[danschance]

E.W. Bullinger - The Church Epistles: Romans to Thessalonians Colossians 2:11-14 Ordinances therefore done away in Christ

in whom ye were circumcised (at Christ's burial) with a circumcision not done by hand (i.e. spiritual, not material not a ceremony performed on the eighth day) in the putting off of the (whole) body (that is to say) the flesh (by reckoning ourselves as having died with Christ) by the circumcision of Christ (i.e. accomplished by Christ) having been buried together with him in his baptism. (Thus far we have the end of the Old Man; Now we come to the origin of the New Man), wherein (in his burial) ye were raised with him also through faith of the operation of God who hath raised him from the dead. And you being (ontas , being, as marking the state, i.e. judicially viewed as)
dead in your sins (dead as regards your sins) and the uncircumcision of your flesh (i.e. your uncircumcised state as Gentiles) he hath quickened even you together with him having forgiven you of all trespasses - by cancelling the bond standing against us with its demands ( Eph. 2:15 "the law of commandments contained in ordinances.") which (bond) was directly opposed to us, he hath taken it (i.e. the bond [also as well as the body of flesh]) right away, having nailed it (the bond) to his cross having spoiled principalities . . .
The ordinances referred to here belonged to the rites and ceremonies of religion as distinct from Christianity. In Christ they are done away. The Holy Spirit teaches us here, through Paul, that for those who are in union with Christ the head, as members of his body, these ordinances have been fulfilled, and are ended and done away in the body of his flesh through his death. To return to them, therefore, in any way, is to deny our completeness and perfection in Christ. It is practically to say that he is not sufficient, that something further is necessary to be added to him, that in spite of all he has done we are incomplete, and need some ordinance to make us quite complete.

Oh, sorry yep it is not unconditional - it is unconditional only to those who have confessed Jesus Christ as their Lord - reliance on faith in the only begotten Son of God - then grace is unconditional to the believer I guess I should have said

I don't see any contradiction. I do not see grace as freedom for sinning.

1 John 3:9 Where is it that a person sins? in the flesh, i.e. old man Where is it where a person cannot sin? in the Spirit, i.e. new man It is by the Spirit that resides in us that our heavenly Father sees us - holy, sanctified, righteous, and justified.

So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. - no way, no how can we attempt to please God in the flesh.

Good post. I think Romans 7:6 says it all (see signature below).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Good post. I think Romans 7:6 says it all (see signature below).

it gets no more clear that what your signature says.

Written code would be the law as a whole.

We also have the code written in stone.

2 Corinthians 3:6-8 [SUP]6 [/SUP]who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit;[SUP][a][/SUP] for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, [SUP]8 [/SUP]how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?

 

[Zinzerio]

Why is it some scripture is believed but not all scripture together which makes up the 'whole' word of God? You want to pound Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. And how do we establish that law? THROUGH FAITH Then you come in and say this - directly contrary to the word of God - 'A law that is established is certainly not abolished or nailed to the cross'. But yet God's word tell us this:
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; . . . . . . .

Grace is NOT A REWARD for not sinning . . . that just about makes me sick to my stomach. Grace is God's unconditional, unmerited love toward us and God doesn't just love when we do not sin - we need his love more when we do err and to help keep us from erring.

I think we all know what sin is because without the law there is no sin - without the law we would not have the knowledge of sin. But let's read - 1 John 3:1-4

Behold, (Behold!!) what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and if doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (this is the only time we will be completely sinless - law or no law) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

So beautiful . . . .

Ok now i am ready to quote and i hope your stomach is feeling better But i really must say that through out my posts even know i have not agreed with many i have found it a pleasure to talk about god and never once have i felt sick in my stomach quite the opposite in fact.

Like all this talk from people saying the law given to the Jews was the law of Moses ( wrong it was the law of God)
does that make me sick in my stomach ? no why should it ?

God protects his own and he does reward them whether you don't like to here me say grace is a reward then you don't have to like that but to say that makes you sick in the stomach is very harsh i think.

Example my joe blogs goes to his local church and ask the vicar a daft question the vicar says that makes my stomach crawl
is that person likely to go back to church ? i think not what do you think yes no ?

This is how i see it there is no way that we can keep the law (THE TEN COMMANDMENTS) without the help from God or and i will word this now differently for you, without the grace of God The grace of Jesus Christ or as other Christians put it the law of grace) is a gift from God i think it is a gift given to people who truly want to obey God, we know that God examines the hearts and minds of every individual who shall call on his name,
and i truly believe that God would if that person is sincere and if he is Jesus will give his Grace.

When you have GRACE you have also peace Grace and peace they go together hand in hand Jesus is peace,
How can Jesus give his grace when the repenter is still sinning how can the sinner have peace if he is still sinning

Romans 1:7 To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be his holy people: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

here in Romans it mentions grace and peace like i could to say to you its good and fantastic both are the same meaning yes ? this is how its described in Romans Grace and peace both the same thing, ( can you define Grace for me please)?

So a lot of people pose many difficult question here they all say they are under grace but still we see from attitude and behavior insults false accusations that they are sinning yes so i say OK maybe they have grace from other sins but not thees one how else can i explain it you tell me please ? people come on here say they are saved by grace and i say with out Grace and Peace you can not obey the law.
Then they say The law doesn't matter its Moses law its been nailed to the cross

I believe verry truly that we all have different yes so why can we not all speak in tongues hmm so why can we not all help each other hmm because its different strokes for different folks that's it God bless

 

[chubbena]

Facetious I presume. It says a lot about this thread and the contributions.

Paul was arrested because he taught the truth, henceforth revealing mans traditions without instigating controversy. He admittedly said that he was Pharisee. He knew Jewish tradition very well. Felix kept him in prison because the Jews liked it. Paul was caught by defining what was right by what he knew of the law and the prophets. He taught against the tradition of the Jews by the very scriptures that they had, and the Jews couldn't handle it, so they threw him in prison. He wasn't about ready to give up what he believed in, and neither can I.

Festus came to Paul's defense by talking to Agrippa.

He said "There is a certain man left in bonds by Felix: Against whom when the accusers stood up, they brought none accusation of such things as I supposed: But had certain questions against him of their own superstition, and of one Jesus, which was dead, whom Paul affirmed to be alive."

On one hand Paul said:
I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds.
On the other hand his gospel is understood as all grace no law nor deeds.
May be this politician approach of spreading the gospel by becoming all things to all men backfired, not realizing his letter to the Galatians fell into the hands of the Jews?
Or may be his great learning had driven him insane, just as Festus said?

 

[Karraster]

Ok now i am ready to quote and i hope your stomach is feeling better But i really must say that through out my posts even know i have not agreed with many i have found it a pleasure to talk about god and never once have i felt sick in my stomach quite the opposite in fact.

Like all this talk from people saying the law given to the Jews was the law of Moses ( wrong it was the law of God)
does that make me sick in my stomach ? no why should it ?

God protects his own and he does reward them whether you don't like to here me say grace is a reward then you don't have to like that but to say that makes you sick in the stomach is very harsh i think.

Example my joe blogs goes to his local church and ask the vicar a daft question the vicar says that makes my stomach crawl
is that person likely to go back to church ? i think not what do you think yes no ?

This is how i see it there is no way that we can keep the law (THE TEN COMMANDMENTS) without the help from God or and i will word this now differently for you, without the grace of God The grace of Jesus Christ or as other Christians put it the law of grace) is a gift from God i think it is a gift given to people who truly want to obey God, we know that God examines the hearts and minds of every individual who shall call on his name,
and i truly believe that God would if that person is sincere and if he is Jesus will give his Grace.

When you have GRACE you have also peace Grace and peace they go together hand in hand Jesus is peace,
How can Jesus give his grace when the repenter is still sinning how can the sinner have peace if he is still sinning

Romans 1:7 To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be his holy people: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

here in Romans it mentions grace and peace like i could to say to you its good and fantastic both are the same meaning yes ? this is how its described in Romans Grace and peace both the same thing, ( can you define Grace for me please)?

So a lot of people pose many difficult question here they all say they are under grace but still we see from attitude and behavior insults false accusations that they are sinning yes so i say OK maybe they have grace from other sins but not thees one how else can i explain it you tell me please ? people come on here say they are saved by grace and i say with out Grace and Peace you can not obey the law.
Then they say The law doesn't matter its Moses law its been nailed to the cross

I believe verry truly that we all have different yes so why can we not all speak in tongues hmm so why can we not all help each other hmm because its different strokes for different folks that's it God bless

An observation, and my perspective, your posts for example, I understand what you are saying clearly, it is not confusing at all. You say what you mean, and do not mince words. No double speak, but simply poignant.

Not naming names, but others here write a copious amount of words, and even contradict themselves before they are through. I have learned to scroll past their posts because they are confusion, and truth is not confusion.

Keep sharing your faith brother, there are some listening.

 

[Karraster]

On one hand Paul said:
I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds.
On the other hand his gospel is understood as all grace no law nor deeds.
May be this politician approach of spreading the gospel by becoming all things to all men backfired, not realizing his letter to the Galatians fell into the hands of the Jews?
Or may be his great learning had driven him insane, just as Festus said?

I think Paul was trying everything he could think to win some for Christ. He was persecuted to death, He preached Grace and Law, but in a different way according to whom he was addressing his message according to their needs.

In any case, Paul does not trump God, and so if we are confused by any point Paul made we have only but to go to the scriptures. He is not easy to understand, and this generation so far removed it is even harder. For he spoke of things not familiar to us, even quoting Greek theologians which was in vogue, but he spoke to appeal to his audience. Context is key.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Ok now i am ready to quote and i hope your stomach is feeling better But i really must say that through out my posts even know i have not agreed with many i have found it a pleasure to talk about god and never once have i felt sick in my stomach quite the opposite in fact.

Like all this talk from people saying the law given to the Jews was the law of Moses ( wrong it was the law of God)
does that make me sick in my stomach ? no why should it ?

God protects his own and he does reward them whether you don't like to here me say grace is a reward then you don't have to like that but to say that makes you sick in the stomach is very harsh i think.

Example my joe blogs goes to his local church and ask the vicar a daft question the vicar says that makes my stomach crawl
is that person likely to go back to church ? i think not what do you think yes no ?

But I did not ask you What is grace? I just think to say "grace is a reward" is wrong.

This is how i see it there is no way that we can keep the law (THE TEN COMMANDMENTS) without the help from God or and i will word this now differently for you, without the grace of God The grace of Jesus Christ or as other Christians put it the law of grace) is a gift from God i think it is a gift given to people who truly want to obey God, we know that God examines the hearts and minds of every individual who shall call on his name,
and i truly believe that God would if that person is sincere and if he is Jesus will give his Grace.

I also do not believe we can keep 'any commandment' without the holy Spirit - the Comforter. Grace is given to every born again believer and if you are truly born again your heart's desire is to do good and his grace is sufficient.

When you have GRACE you have also peace Grace and peace they go together hand in hand Jesus is peace,
How can Jesus give his grace when the repenter is still sinning how can the sinner have peace if he is still sinning

Romans 1:7 To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be his holy people: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

here in Romans it mentions grace and peace like i could to say to you its good and fantastic both are the same meaning yes ? this is how its described in Romans Grace and peace both the same thing, ( can you define Grace for me please)?

Grace is God's unconditional, unmerited love toward us and God doesn't just love when we do not sin - we need his love more when we do err and to help keep us from erring. It is unconditional to those who have confessed Jesus Christ as their Lord - reliance on faith in the only begotten Son of God.

So a lot of people pose many difficult question here they all say they are under grace but still we see from attitude and behavior insults false accusations that they are sinning yes so i say OK maybe they have grace from other sins but not thees one how else can i explain it you tell me please ? people come on here say they are saved by grace and i say with out Grace and Peace you can not obey the law.
Then they say The law doesn't matter its Moses law its been nailed to the cross

I believe verry truly that we all have different yes so why can we not all speak in tongues hmm so why can we not all help each other hmm because its different strokes for different folks that's it God bless

It's all in how people read and understand what they are reading.

 

[just-me]

On one hand Paul said:
I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds.
On the other hand his gospel is understood as all grace no law nor deeds.
May be this politician approach of spreading the gospel by becoming all things to all men backfired, not realizing his letter to the Galatians fell into the hands of the Jews?
Or may be his great learning had driven him insane, just as Festus said?

This is how Paul worked as a minister which you mentioned.

1 Corinthians 9:19-23 (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
[SUP]21 [/SUP]To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

So the rhetorical question is; what if a Jew heard Paul preaching to Gentiles, and what if Gentile heard him preaching to the Jews? What would their immediate reaction be toward Paul? That's what we have in here, because we have all scriptures available. We have "Judaizers" (I'm one evidently) that say the Passover is the 14th, because they want Jesus to raise from the dead on Saturday, which is when they observe the Sabbath. Personally, according to scripture, that is incorrect because the Passover was on the 15th of the first month, according to the way the Hebrew day is calculated. We have people using the label "Judaizers" because they don't want anything to do with the law, because their doctrine says that the law given to Moses by God Himself has become an adversary of grace through His Son, and our Savior Jesus Christ. In my estimation, they are both wrong, and Paul thought so too.

Can't win for loosing when one attempts to explain the truth. Seems to me Jesus had the same problem as Paul did. Peter was crucified upside-down from what I have read in commentaries. I think it was something out of Josephus" writings.

Isaiah 29:16 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

 

[ivanc0]

Ok i have to re-quote you on this you say that the law of moses was just for the jews ? and so i will ask you a question to make you think about this ideology that you have.

first we know that Satan sinned in heaven and he was booted out for disobeying God yes no ? (this was long befor the jews walked the planet and we know that Adam and eve also sinned in the garden so that can only mean one thing the law has always been and it will always be its that simple

and here i will show you one more thing which the law of the holy spirit
Romans 8

New International Reader's Version (NIRV)

The Holy Spirit Gives Life

8 Those who belong to Christ Jesus are no longer under God’s sentence. [SUP]2 [/SUP]I am now controlled by the law of the Holy Spirit. That law gives me life because of what Christ Jesus has done. It has set me free from the law of sin that brings death.

so now we know for sure that the holy spirit and the farther and the son has always been

Are you Jew? .... maybe.... Are you circumcised? if you have, maybe the law of Moses apply to you?

I am a gentile I do not have to follow the law of Moses. The bible directly acts 15, says the laws of Moses does not apply to Gentiles.

Yes. you are right about the will of God, but the will of God towards men changes according his own will and his own plan.
initially we see simple an basic laws, then we see the pact with the "house of Israel" this is the law of moses.
this law had a purpose, and is to show you that men can not be saved by the law and was a preparation for the Saviour Jesus.
Then Jesus came to fulfill the law, perform the Ultimate sacrifice, his life itself.

This was to done to allow people in and outside of the "house of Israel" to be saved. for this he has made the law given to Israel void and have give us a new law, a new covenant.

So the law of moses became Historical, referential but not active and enforceable.

But the Christian Jews could not change easily so it have to still live his law and slowly became a Gentile.
(your ideas try to do the opposite, judaize the Gentile)

The new covenant applies to the whole planet all people, all races, so this new covenant is called the Grace. and they were taught that "love your fellow is the commandment that contains the whole of the law and the prophets"