The absurdity and heresy of Preterism

[Ahwatukee]

If John was in Patmos and wrote about the coming 70 AD Destruction, one would think as Josephus described women eating their own children, he would have mentioned seeing these locust demons. Since he does not mention anything, nor has the ancient Greek writers, the ancient Roman writers, the ancient Asian writers, the ancient Arab writers, etc... it seems like a safe bet these events are to happen later.

And we know they have yet to happen.

What does that tell us?

Right on! You would think that this event of demonic beings coming up out of the Abyss stinging the inhabitants of the earth for five months would be something for Josephus to write about.

 

[49]

Wow! Just, wow!
Time for me to leave this site again....nothing has changed. Sad!

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Right on! You would think that this event of demonic beings coming up out of the Abyss stinging the inhabitants of the earth for five months would be something for Josephus to write about.

The locusts of Rev 9 are described as the first woe (Rev 9:12) ... believers are spared torment, only unbelievers are tormented (Rev 9:4) ... what historic writing corroborates this event?

Then we have the second woe where an army of two hundred thousand thousand (Rev 9:16) go out and one third of men (note not just Jews, but men ... mankind) are killed (Rev 9:18) and still there is no repentance (Rev 9:20-21) ... what historic writing corroborates this event?

 

[Ahwatukee]

The locusts of Rev 9 are described as the first woe (Rev 9:12) ... believers are spared torment, only unbelievers are tormented (Rev 9:4) ... what historic writing corroborates this event?

Hello Renewdaybyday!

I Don't know where you got the idea that only unbelievers are tormented, as I have never said that. The only group that scripture states that are excluded from the torment of the stings of those demonic locusts are the 144,000 who are sealed with the seal of God in their forehead. No one else is mentioned as being exempt from this plague. In regards to historic writing, there is none. But is specific to the book of Revelation in regards to who this trumpet judgment will be against. Below is the scripture:

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"They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. They were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months.
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Below are those Who will have received the seal of God in their foreheads:

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"He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
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Based on this information, only the 144,000 are excluded from the torment of the 5th trumpet.

Then we have the second woe where an army of two hundred thousand (Rev 9:16) go out and one third of men (note not just Jews, but men ... mankind) are killed (Rev 9:18) and still there is no repentance (Rev 9:20-21) ... what historic writing corroborates this event?

Just fyi, it is not two hundred thousand, but is 200 million. However, this is exactly the point we are making, which is that if these amazing unpreceded events had already happened, they would have been written about by Josephus and others. Yet there is no mention of them as taking place in any writings after the Revelation was written.

 

[Dino246]

Dino, this answer from Dorothy confirms either a Preterist or a Amill view. Which both sides view the Great Tribulation took place in 70 AD. It also removes the false Pre-Trib Rapture Theory and removes that Jesus will have a physical presence in New Jerusalem for the 1,000 years Satan is bound.

Either view she takes, my answers to your replies are still 100% correct!

Apparently, you still have not re-read her statement that started this. The other statements she has made are not relevant.

 

[tanakh]

If you are claiming Christ was speaking of 2 events in Matthew 24 I absolutely agree.

He did indeed speak of the 70 AD Destruction.

But He spent more time on the Great Tribulation and specifies the Elect will go through it, the days will be shortened for the Elect's Sake (not the beheaded they are dead so it means SAVED before Tribulation begins), then He says AFTER TRIBULATION end to watch for signs (moon to blood, stars falling) and then from like lightning coming East to West so will be Christ Returning.

I am claiming that Christ spoke about two events. He warned of the 70 AD destruction throughout his ministry both in plain speech and parables.

 

[Dino246]

You have some kind of nerve trying to pull the baloney you did in our back n forth!

Baloney? Identify even one statement I made that is "baloney"... and back up your assertion with actual evidence.

 

[tanakh]

What "solid proofs"? Links? Books? Quotations? Nope, just assertions.

Actually Domitian who was the youngest Son of Vespatia

Most of the Apostles were dead around 62 - 66 AD

So they never experienced the 70 AD Destruction.

The Jerusalem Church was still active and escaped the 70AD destruction because they took notice of Jesus warning to escape'

 

[Dino246]

The Jerusalem Church was still active and escaped the 70AD destruction because they took notice of Jesus warning to escape'

Agreed. They wisely shipped out when they saw the foretold signs.

 

[Dino246]

The locusts of Rev 9 are described as the first woe (Rev 9:12) ... believers are spared torment, only unbelievers are tormented (Rev 9:4) ... what historic writing corroborates this event?

Then we have the second woe where an army of two hundred thousand thousand (Rev 9:16) go out and one third of men (note not just Jews, but men ... mankind) are killed (Rev 9:18) and still there is no repentance (Rev 9:20-21) ... what historic writing corroborates this event?

Have you read Josephus' Wars of the Jews?

 

[tanakh]

Even if the dating is reliable, all it means is that Revelation cannot have been written after 100-125. It cannot prove when it was written prior to those dates.


No, we don't "know" that. Your source has no citations to actual historical sources. The writer assumes John's involvement but does not prove it with any evidence.

Domitian was the younger Son of Vespatian. When his Father died he stood in as temporary Emperor for about six months until his brother Titus reached Rome. Yitus had been delayed in battle. So it is possible that Domitian did send John to Patmos at a much earlier date than people think.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Based on this information, only the 144,000 are excluded from the torment of the 5th trumpet.

ok ... so you believe there are believers in addition to the 144,000 who were sealed with the seal of God (Rev 7:3-4)?

And the believers who do not have the seal of God are tormented together with those who do not have the seal of God?

Just fyi, it is not two hundred thousand, but is 200 million.

yeah ... I think my computer did an auto-correct for me. I typed in two hundred thousand thousand and I think auto-correct deleted the second "thousand" ... kind of a love/hate relationship with that auto-correct ... thanks for catching that

However, this is exactly the point we are making, which is that if these amazing unpreceded events had already happened, they would have been written about by Josephus and others. Yet there is no mention of them as taking place in any writings after the Revelation was written.

right. There is so much happening in Book of Revelation that cannot be corroborated in any historical writing to date. So it either has not happened yet ... or it did happen (when did locusts happen?) and no one took notice to write about it.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Have you read Josephus' Wars of the Jews?

Please provide the cite wherein locusts:

go forth and do not hurt the grass or any green thing or any tree, but only those men which do not have the seal of God in their foreheads ... the locusts don't kill, just cause people to want to die but death fled from them.


Revelation 9:

3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.


thanks!

 

[Ahwatukee]

ok ... so you believe there are believers in addition to the 144,000 who were sealed with the seal of God (Rev 7:3-4)?

And the believers who do not have the seal of God are tormented together with those who do not have the seal of God?

Oh, Most definitely! They are referred to in Rev.7:9-17, as that great number of white robes saints which no man can count from every nation, tribe, people and language, which would make them Gentiles. This would be in opposition to Israel, the 144,000 and unbelievers

yeah ... I think my computer did an auto-correct for me. I typed in two hundred thousand thousand and I think auto-correct deleted the second "thousand" ... kind of a love/hate relationship with that auto-correct ... thanks for catching that

right. There is so much happening in Book of Revelation that cannot be corroborated in any historical writing to date. So it either has not happened yet ... or it did happen (when did locusts happen?) and no one took notice to write about it.

Right! And those events would certainly be something to write about.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Oh, Most definitely! They are referred to in Rev.7:9-17, as that great number of white robes saints which no man can count from every nation, tribe, people and language, which would make them Gentiles. This would be in opposition to Israel, the 144,000 and unbelievers

ok ... got it. John saw them in a vision of a future event ... not that they were already before the throne prior to Rev 9.

edited to add: ... or that they became believers after the events of Rev 9.

thanks!

 

[Ahwatukee]

ok ... got it. John saw them in a vision of a future event ... not that they were already before the throne prior to Rev 9.

edited to add: ... or that they became believers after the events of Rev 9.

thanks!

The will become believers after the church has been gathered and during the first 3 1/2 years. it is not until the middle of the seven years to the end that they will be persecuted and put to death.

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The beast was given a mouth to speak arrogant and blasphemous words, and authority to act for 42 months. And the beast opened his mouth to speak blasphemies against God and to slander His name and His tabernacle—those who dwell in heaven.

Then the beast was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them, and he was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation."

The 42 months is the last 3 1/2 years in 30 day increments, with the Lord returning at the end. This is also supported by Daniel:

"He will speak out against the Most High and oppress the saints of the Most High, intending to change the appointed times and laws; and the saints will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time." - Dan.7:27

a time = one year
times = two years
half a time = half a year

Total = 3 1/2 years

 

[reneweddaybyday]

The will become believers after the church has been gathered and during the first 3 1/2 years. it is not until the middle of the seven years to the end that they will be persecuted and put to death.

In Matt 24, when the disciples asked Jesus Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? (Matt 24:3), Jesus responded by telling them about events leading up to the beginning of sorrows (Matt 24:4-8).

Then Jesus described events which take place after the beginning of sorrows and in Matt 24:21-22, Jesus said then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

I figure the reason there will be such great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be is that satan will be loosed upon the earth ... the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the devil, and satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him — Rev 12:9 ... and he will be very angry and knows he has only a short time ... Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time — Rev 12:12.

I believe that just as we cannot fully comprehend the love of God ... its complete and utter vastness (breadth, length, depth, height), we also cannot fully comprehend the evil/hatred of the devil (and I really don't even want to understand it. I much prefer dwelling on God's love and goodness).

But having said that, it really puts into perspective the statement made by Jesus when He said there will be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And the only thing that shortens it is God stepping in for the elect's sake.

The beast was given a mouth to speak arrogant and blasphemous words, and authority to act for 42 months. And the beast opened his mouth to speak blasphemies against God and to slander His name and His tabernacle—those who dwell in heaven.

Then the beast was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them, and he was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation."

The 42 months is the last 3 1/2 years in 30 day increments, with the Lord returning at the end. This is also supported by Daniel:

"He will speak out against the Most High and oppress the saints of the Most High, intending to change the appointed times and laws; and the saints will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time." - Dan.7:27

a time = one year
times = two years
half a time = half a year

Total = 3 1/2 years

yes. I appreciate you taking the time to go through this with me. so much information and we see things unfolding before our very eyes. I know we don't (and won't) know the exact timing of everything but God does give warning if we pay attention.

1 Thessalonians 5:

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.


While we don't know the exact time, we can and should be alert and vigilant (watchful) ...

 

[biker]

Apparently, you still have not re-read her statement that started this. The other statements she has made are not relevant.

Why aren't they relevant? That's kind of the idea of figuring someone out, by reading all of their posts, not just the ones specifically towards oneself.

 

[biker]

Baloney? Identify even one statement I made that is "baloney"... and back up your assertion with actual evidence.

It's baloney because I addressed her, not you, in the first place.

She seems rather capable of communicating her views. That sort of brings the assumption that she can then defend her own views without your help and input.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

I don't spend time learning about all these extra biblical titles and learning methods; I instead focus all my attention to scripture.

But based on what the OP lays out, I agree that this "Preterism" stuff is heretical.

Hear, hear. I can't keep up with all the "ists" "isms" & denominational idiosyncracies.
I only just learned of "preterism" about 5 yrs ago. I didn't know what it was so had to look it up. Then I laughed & laughed.