The absurdity and heresy of Preterism
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I don’t think it does. He says he’s the same yesterday today and forever. Jesus did all the possible to reach the Jews and through them the whole world. He simply NEVER forces a person to repent, and that was the example I was asking for. When did he do this as you suggests He will?
What or who is “all Israel” exactly? Maybe we can start there.
Romans 11 also says Paul is talking about the Jews THEN. So this is not future in any case.
What or who is “all Israel” exactly? Maybe we can start there.
Romans 11 also says Paul is talking about the Jews THEN. So this is not future in any case.
I will have to address the rest of your post later (I have other things I need to tend to ATM), but no, that wasn't me (but another poster)... what I've said is that [very briefly, zeroing in on THIS part of your post ^ ]]:
-- v.1 says "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (which aspect refers to the "far-future" [7] trib yrs which lead UP TO His "RETURN"), it does not say "SOON / QUICKLY [ADVERBS]" (speaking of v.1, mind you!); and that this word is used elsewhere (I've pointed out where and how used);
--that it was addressed to "the churchES" ("...let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churchES" 7x), and that this is not the equivalent of saying "to the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [this IS part of it, tho]; the former is made up of BOTH the "saved" AND "those who come in His name, but who are NOT connected WITH HIM" (i.e. they are NOT "saved"--for example, the ones He is calling "LUKEWARM"... this does not mean "milquetoast, wimpy, weak, weasly CHRISTIANS/BELIEVERS" but are the UNSAVED in the churchES, see); the latter (meaning, "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY") is made up of ONLY BELIEVERS [all those who are saved "in this present age [singular]"]; these 2 chpts addressed to "the churchES";
--the word for "about to happen" (in your post, and in the passage) is "mello" and carries the meaning, "IS SURE/CERTAIN [to happen]"... meaning, it will CERTAINLY HAPPEN because it has been prophesied to take place (not that it has to take place immediately, soon, at any moment, but is "SURE/CERTAIN [mello]" to)
--"the things WHICH ARE" [which are of long duration] are contrasted with "the things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (NOT "soon" or "immediately" [adverbs]) [which, by contrast, are NOT of long duration]; additionally, Rev17:8 says, "[when they behold] the beast that WAS, and IS NOT, and YET SHALL BE [FUTURE tense]"... how long do you think the "and IS NOT" situation lasted (re: "beast" issues), in your view?
--since it was addressed to "the churchES" ("...let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churchES" 7x), then I certainly DO believe it was applicable and beneficial for them to read it (recall, chpts 2-3 especially pertain to "the things WHICH ARE" [i.e. the NOW... and I think it will also benefit those who find themselves in the trib years, to read it])
--another thing... I believe MID-trib is at the "5th Trumpet/1st Woe unto the earth" point in time (Rev12:12, Rev8:13, Rev9:1), and that the "2W's 1260 days of testimony" will END at the 6th Trumpet/2nd Woe events time-slot, meaning AFTER the MID-trib events, and yet we see that ppl will [have the capacity to] "SEND GIFTS one to another" in their celebration of their death and cessation of their "testimony" / "torment[-ing of them via plagues]"... I see no real problem with the "FLEE" issue at MID-trib (prior to this point in the chronology, even)... And I don't see "come out" of Babylon as being the equivalent of FLEEING to a remote LOCATION somewhere else on the earth from where said person is located... Recall, they [MANY] that will be dwelling on the earth at that time (meaning, FOLLOWING "our Rapture") will be RELIGIOUS PEOPLE, even those who "come in His name" but who are NOT vitally connected WITH CHRIST (i.e. they're not actually "saved" persons), and can you see how *their* viewpoint (of the situation they will now be in) might be problematic in a way that hasn't been thus far... yes, some of them (perhaps some being those to whom "God shall SEND" the delusion to, "THAT they should believe the lie/the false/the pseudei"[involving what just happened!]) will be "explaining the situation" in a "Babylonian" kind of way, see. "Come out from among them / 'Come out of her'" doesn't necessarily mean "run for the hills [in a remote location]," in this case, see...
Does any of that ("picture" I'm endeavoring to paint in "practical" terms) make sense, per your question? (
I could say more, but was trying to stay BRIEF. LOL)
-- v.1 says "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (which aspect refers to the "far-future" [7] trib yrs which lead UP TO His "RETURN"), it does not say "SOON / QUICKLY [ADVERBS]" (speaking of v.1, mind you!); and that this word is used elsewhere (I've pointed out where and how used);
--that it was addressed to "the churchES" ("...let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churchES" 7x), and that this is not the equivalent of saying "to the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [this IS part of it, tho]; the former is made up of BOTH the "saved" AND "those who come in His name, but who are NOT connected WITH HIM" (i.e. they are NOT "saved"--for example, the ones He is calling "LUKEWARM"... this does not mean "milquetoast, wimpy, weak, weasly CHRISTIANS/BELIEVERS" but are the UNSAVED in the churchES, see); the latter (meaning, "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY") is made up of ONLY BELIEVERS [all those who are saved "in this present age [singular]"]; these 2 chpts addressed to "the churchES";
--the word for "about to happen" (in your post, and in the passage) is "mello" and carries the meaning, "IS SURE/CERTAIN [to happen]"... meaning, it will CERTAINLY HAPPEN because it has been prophesied to take place (not that it has to take place immediately, soon, at any moment, but is "SURE/CERTAIN [mello]" to)
--"the things WHICH ARE" [which are of long duration] are contrasted with "the things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (NOT "soon" or "immediately" [adverbs]) [which, by contrast, are NOT of long duration]; additionally, Rev17:8 says, "[when they behold] the beast that WAS, and IS NOT, and YET SHALL BE [FUTURE tense]"... how long do you think the "and IS NOT" situation lasted (re: "beast" issues), in your view?
--since it was addressed to "the churchES" ("...let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churchES" 7x), then I certainly DO believe it was applicable and beneficial for them to read it (recall, chpts 2-3 especially pertain to "the things WHICH ARE" [i.e. the NOW... and I think it will also benefit those who find themselves in the trib years, to read it])
--another thing... I believe MID-trib is at the "5th Trumpet/1st Woe unto the earth" point in time (Rev12:12, Rev8:13, Rev9:1), and that the "2W's 1260 days of testimony" will END at the 6th Trumpet/2nd Woe events time-slot, meaning AFTER the MID-trib events, and yet we see that ppl will [have the capacity to] "SEND GIFTS one to another" in their celebration of their death and cessation of their "testimony" / "torment[-ing of them via plagues]"... I see no real problem with the "FLEE" issue at MID-trib (prior to this point in the chronology, even)... And I don't see "come out" of Babylon as being the equivalent of FLEEING to a remote LOCATION somewhere else on the earth from where said person is located... Recall, they [MANY] that will be dwelling on the earth at that time (meaning, FOLLOWING "our Rapture") will be RELIGIOUS PEOPLE, even those who "come in His name" but who are NOT vitally connected WITH CHRIST (i.e. they're not actually "saved" persons), and can you see how *their* viewpoint (of the situation they will now be in) might be problematic in a way that hasn't been thus far... yes, some of them (perhaps some being those to whom "God shall SEND" the delusion to, "THAT they should believe the lie/the false/the pseudei"[involving what just happened!]) will be "explaining the situation" in a "Babylonian" kind of way, see. "Come out from among them / 'Come out of her'" doesn't necessarily mean "run for the hills [in a remote location]," in this case, see...
Does any of that ("picture" I'm endeavoring to paint in "practical" terms) make sense, per your question? (
I could say more, but was trying to stay BRIEF. LOL)
Even when you give a solid definitive correct answer, she will move the goalpost on you. Reread her posts. On a half dozen examples she got the answered she asked for and then turned that into a secondary question completely removing all connection to the first question.
In every typical question there is always a right answer. With her, there are 20 right answers till you finally understand she is pathological!
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Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
(Rom 11:12)
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (Rom 11:25)
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
(Rom 11:26)
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. (Rom 11:27)
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
(Rom 11:32)
I really don't see how you can say " So this is not future in any case".
Perhaps your presuppositions are blinding you to the text, just as the Jews presuppositions towards the Gospel at this present hour.
(Rom 11:12)
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (Rom 11:25)
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
(Rom 11:26)
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. (Rom 11:27)
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
(Rom 11:32)
I really don't see how you can say " So this is not future in any case".
Perhaps your presuppositions are blinding you to the text, just as the Jews presuppositions towards the Gospel at this present hour.
I am the one who suggested (not "insisted" as you claim) that the Greek word taxý (translated "quickly" in Rev 22:7) could mean "suddenly" as opposed to "soon". From the post I submitted (Post #80):
And for those who do insist that taxý means "immediately" or "in a very short time", please consider that Revelation 1:1 states The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John
The word "shortly" in Rev 1:1 is the Greek word τάχει.
The τάχει of Rev 1:1 is the noun form and the taxý of Rev 22:7 is the adverb form.
Since we know that the new heavens and new earth of Rev 21:1, the no more death, no more sorrow, nor more pain of Rev 21:4 has not occurred and it has been 1900+ years since the Revelation of Jesus Christ was written, perhaps you can explain why the Greek words taxý and τάχος definitely mean "immediately" or "in a very short time" as opposed to "suddenly".
5035 taxý – properly, swift (quick), without unnecessary delay; used of God's promptness characterizing how He has ordered all physical scenes of life to happen on His perfect timetable without unnecessary "delay" (Rev 1:1, 22:6).
[5035 (taxý) does not mean "immediately" or necessarily "in a very short time" but rather "without any delay."]
HELPS Word-studies
And for those who do insist that taxý means "immediately" or "in a very short time", please consider that Revelation 1:1 states The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John
The word "shortly" in Rev 1:1 is the Greek word τάχει.
The τάχει of Rev 1:1 is the noun form and the taxý of Rev 22:7 is the adverb form.
Since we know that the new heavens and new earth of Rev 21:1, the no more death, no more sorrow, nor more pain of Rev 21:4 has not occurred and it has been 1900+ years since the Revelation of Jesus Christ was written, perhaps you can explain why the Greek words taxý and τάχος definitely mean "immediately" or "in a very short time" as opposed to "suddenly".
So, if I was from the Tribe of Judah and 70 AD took place. I somehow survived and relocated and started my life journey all over. I would have mysteriously forgotten I was from the Tribe of Judah? Or that the millions of survivors all forgot which Tribe they were originated from? And forgot to pass that information down to their own children, grandchildren, etc? So in 1948 when the Jews began returning they had no idea which Tribe they come from?
What kind of thought process concludes to this type of assumption?
Besides a broken one.
The Bible is a LINEAGE RECORD and to think any Jew is not aware of their LINEAGE is beyond reasoning!
This why John was preaching his vision from 97 AD to 100 AD in the Church of Ephesus like Polycarp and Irenaeus write about. John immediately began telling his vision to ALL Believers. And we have had this vision for 1900 years now thanks to John's obedience to God!
Irenaeus explaining what I posted:
In his Against Heresies Book III, at the end of chapter 3, Irenaeus says, “Then, again, the Church in Ephesus, founded by Paul, and having John remaining among them permanently until the times of Trajan, is a true witness of the tradition of the apostles.” Trajan began to rule in A.D. 98, and John was alive among the people of Ephesus till that time and perhaps a little while after.
In Against Heresies Book V.30.3, Irenaeus writes (declining to try to identify what the number of the beast signifies), “for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, toward the end of Domitian’s reign.” Domitian died in A.D. 96.
Irenaeus explaining what I posted:
In his Against Heresies Book III, at the end of chapter 3, Irenaeus says, “Then, again, the Church in Ephesus, founded by Paul, and having John remaining among them permanently until the times of Trajan, is a true witness of the tradition of the apostles.” Trajan began to rule in A.D. 98, and John was alive among the people of Ephesus till that time and perhaps a little while after.
In Against Heresies Book V.30.3, Irenaeus writes (declining to try to identify what the number of the beast signifies), “for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, toward the end of Domitian’s reign.” Domitian died in A.D. 96.
To be clear (for the readers), I am referring to Rev1:1's "G5034 - NOUN [IN QUICKNESS]"... used here also:Luke 18:8 N-DNS
GRK: αὐτῶν ἐν τάχει πλὴν ὁ
NAS: justice for them quickly. However,
KJV: them speedily. Nevertheless
INT: [the AVENGING] of them in quickness Nevertheless the
[...]
Romans 16:20 N-DNS
GRK: ὑμῶν ἐν τάχει Ἡ χάρις
NAS: The God of peace will soon crush Satan
INT: [crush Satan under the feet] of you in short time The grace
[...]
Revelation 1:1 N-DNS
GRK: γενέσθαι ἐν τάχει καὶ ἐσήμανεν
NAS: must soon take place;
INT: take place in quickness and he signified [it]
Revelation 22:6 N-DNS
GRK: γενέσθαι ἐν τάχει
NAS: the things which must soon take place.
INT: come to pass in quickness
https://biblehub.com/greek/5034.htm
[My post was not covering "G5035 [ADVERB]" other than to point out that in 1:1 it is the NOUN [G5034] and NOT the ADVERBS - https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/1-1.htm ]
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In Against Heresies Book V.30.3, Irenaeus writes (declining to try to identify what the number of the beast signifies), “for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, toward the end of Domitian’s reign.” Domitian died in A.D. 96.
^
This portion alone is Irenaeus revealing John knew the Number and Identity of the Beast but kept it secret. But Irenaeus makes it clear John beheld the Apocalyptic Vision.
How would the Church of Ephesus know about John's vision if John did not IMMEDIATELY begin to tell it?
^
This portion alone is Irenaeus revealing John knew the Number and Identity of the Beast but kept it secret. But Irenaeus makes it clear John beheld the Apocalyptic Vision.
How would the Church of Ephesus know about John's vision if John did not IMMEDIATELY begin to tell it?
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This is exactly my point, DorothyMae.
For some to insist that "a delay of 2000 years does not fulfill the definition" and that "the resurrection and great judgment have not yet occurred"
yet we know that 1900+ years have passed since the Revelation of Jesus Christ was written
it could be surmised that that the "shortly" (Gr τάχει) of Rev 1:1 and the "quickly (Gr ταχύ) of Rev 22:7 do not mean "immediately" or "in a very short time" from the time it was written.
Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly (Greek τάχει) come to pass ...
You allow for 1900+ years to pass between the time John wrote the Revelation of Jesus Christ and the resurrection and great judgment, yet insist that "a delay of 2000 does not fulfill the definition".
Apparently, what you understand concerning the word τάχει does not align with what God wants us to understand concerning the word τάχει.
For some to insist that "a delay of 2000 years does not fulfill the definition" and that "the resurrection and great judgment have not yet occurred"
yet we know that 1900+ years have passed since the Revelation of Jesus Christ was written
it could be surmised that that the "shortly" (Gr τάχει) of Rev 1:1 and the "quickly (Gr ταχύ) of Rev 22:7 do not mean "immediately" or "in a very short time" from the time it was written.
Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly (Greek τάχει) come to pass ...
You allow for 1900+ years to pass between the time John wrote the Revelation of Jesus Christ and the resurrection and great judgment, yet insist that "a delay of 2000 does not fulfill the definition".
Apparently, what you understand concerning the word τάχει does not align with what God wants us to understand concerning the word τάχει.
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You have been given hardcore Church Father facts pertaining to John, Domitian, Church of Ephesus, and John's death in 100 AD and you refuse it by asserting your false idealisms that John was sent to Patmos by Nero. There are no Church Fathers or John's own Disciples who even come near to backing that false ridiculous idea. In fact, it was not till the 6th Century Nero came into play. For over 500 years the Early Church knew it was Domitian and John served his remaining years teaching in Ephesus.
The fact you can look at a hardcore fact and dismiss it is astounding and screams complete psychological denial!
The fact you can look at a hardcore fact and dismiss it is astounding and screams complete psychological denial!
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Do you see a therapist?
You claim to work with Scientists. But that is difficult to accept given how easy it is for you to look at a true fact and dismiss it like it never existed. If you did that to a Scientist they would have you dismissed immediately!
And that is based upon not giving a real reason why you dismiss the Church Fathers findings.
The only way you could dismiss a Scientists findings is by having another Theory.
And I struggle to imagine you in discovery/fact finding mode.
You claim to work with Scientists. But that is difficult to accept given how easy it is for you to look at a true fact and dismiss it like it never existed. If you did that to a Scientist they would have you dismissed immediately!
And that is based upon not giving a real reason why you dismiss the Church Fathers findings.
The only way you could dismiss a Scientists findings is by having another Theory.
And I struggle to imagine you in discovery/fact finding mode.
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First understand that John wrote the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter (Rev 1:19).
So John wrote the things he saw, the things which are and the the things which shall be hereafter.
You think it is cruel to write about future events that churches in existence in John's day would not understand but it's okay to leave future churches with no instruction?
I believe it would be cruel to leave without instruction the churches which would come into existence "in a few millennia".
So John wrote the things he saw, the things which are and the the things which shall be hereafter.
You think it is cruel to write about future events that churches in existence in John's day would not understand but it's okay to leave future churches with no instruction?
I believe it would be cruel to leave without instruction the churches which would come into existence "in a few millennia".
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This is your misunderstanding of the word (in the Greek) for "IS ABOUT [mello G3195 - which means "IS SURE" ( to happen)]"... and the other ones I pointed out.
Why is it "cruel" to tell someone that certain prophecies (getting ready to be described) are "SURE" to take place? (I think that notion seems unreasonable, tbh).
[I believe your reference is to that word in Rev3:10]
Why is it "cruel" to tell someone that certain prophecies (getting ready to be described) are "SURE" to take place? (I think that notion seems unreasonable, tbh).
[I believe your reference is to that word in Rev3:10]
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