The absurdity and heresy of Preterism

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Truth7t7

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Neither Enoch nor Elijah ascended into heaven. God took Enoch and caught up Elijah in a chariot. only Jesus ascended to heaven without assistance.
I agree 100%

For this reason I believe Enoch/Elijah will be the future two witnesses of Revelation 11, Prophets returned.

It's gonna be a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt
 

cv5

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I'm part of the Church, saved by the blood of Jesus Christ, seal by the Holy Spirit, my name's in the book of life, amen.
Really? So why is the day coming upon you like a thief in the night?
 

Ahwatukee

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Mar 12, 2015
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Not one Scripture shows Gods wrath upon the Church during the tribulation.
Actually, a better more accurate saying would be, "the church does not appear in on scripture during the narrative of God's wrath in the book of Revelation."

This is why I told you that you, along with others, do not understand the severity and magnitude of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgment, which will fulfill God's wrath. With just the 4th seal and 6th trumpet, approximately 5/8's of the earths population will have been killed within the first 3 1/2 years of the tribulation. And that does not include the fatalities that will result form trumpets 1, 2 and 3, nor from seven bowl judgments.

The sealed Church is protected, as the two witnesses bring all plagues upon the evil world.
Please show us the scripture that states 1). where the church is even mentioned in the narrative of God's wrath, i.e. Revelation 6 thru 18. And 2). Show us the scripture which states that God protects the church during the time of His wrath.

A remake of Moses/Aaron against pharaohs of Egypt, and yes the Hebrews were protected
What you are not getting, is that the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will affect the entire world. It will be the worst time in the history of the world. There will be no ark to get on and no small city to flee to. The entire world will be affected by these plagues of wrath and which is their purpose.

Like I keep saying, the church is never mentioned again after the end of chapter 3 and during the narrative of God's wrath. If you think that the church is on the earth during the time of God's wrath and is protected, what do you make of the following:

"Then the beast was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation."

If the saints in the scripture above was referring to the church, how then is the church protected, since the scripture states that the beast is given authority to make war against them and to conquer them, not to mention many of them being beheaded? That doesn't sound like protection to me. However, there's no need to search for an answer, because the saints that are mentioned above, is referring to the great tribulation saints who are revealed in Rev.7:9-17. These are those who will have become believers after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath.
 

John146

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I agree 100%

For this reason I believe Enoch/Elijah will be the future two witnesses of Revelation 11, Prophets returned.

It's gonna be a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt
I believe it will be Moses not Enoch, for Enoch is a picture of the raptured saint who never faces death but is caught up.
 

cv5

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Do you have an explanation for simultaneous versus the 1000 year separated resurrections?
Let the Scripture speak for itself....

(Rev 20)

4And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Utterly, breathtakingly, resoundingly crystal-clear.
 

Truth7t7

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The Church per se and that exact term is nowhere to be found, as they are clearly in heaven in chapters 4 and 5. The two witnesses are Israelites by the way, as are 144,000, because you see Israel steps up to the plate and they are reestablished to fulfill the role that they were meant to keep, which is to testify to the world about Yahweh. And they do, in a very very Old Testament way with fire coming down from heaven waters turned to blood and plagues of all kinds!
The 144,000 are sealed and "Added To The Church" present on earth during the 3.5 year tribulation, to preach the gospel of salvation in Jesus Christ.
 

Nehemiah6

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Also, how do you know that Jesus didn't mean exactly what he said - the last day.
Jesus did not expand on teachings which would be given to the apostles after His resurrection. The Risen Christ spent forty days with His apostles, teaching them of "the things pertaining to the Kingdom of God". In addition to that, He appeared to Paul several times and taught him many things which were not revealed to the other apostles, particularly the Mystery of the Church, the Resurrection, and the Rapture, as well as the Second Coming.

Now please note:
And he said unto them [AFTER HIS RESURRECTION], These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures... (Luke 24:44,45)

To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: (Acts 1:3)

GALATIANS 1: PAUL TAUGHT DIRECTLY BY CHRIST IN ARABIA (AND ALSO AT OTHER TIMES)
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. 13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: 14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, 16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
 

Truth7t7

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I believe it will be Moses not Enoch, for Enoch is a picture of the raptured saint who never faces death but is caught up.
Enoch/Elijah

They never experienced a literal death, it's appointed unto every man to die HEB 9:27
 
Nov 23, 2013
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First of all, you've not given any reason why Matt27:52-53 says "MANY bodies of the saints which slept arose" and not "ALL" of them.
(Mat 27:52) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
(Mat 27:53) And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Read those verses carefully. It says specifically that many bodies of the saints arose AND came out of the graves AND went into the holy city. Joseph was buried in Egypt, did he walk from Egypt and go into Jerusalem? Did Noah walk to Jerusalem? I don't think they did. I think that every person, both good and bad were raised from the dead on that day. The only exception to "those that slept in the dust of the earth" being raised would be the Giants, Nephillim.
Secondly, I do believe David's "BODY" is still in the grave. [that's what "resurrection" speaks to, which means "to stand again on the earth']

Thirdly, Paul has said "the dead IN Christ shall [FUTURE TENSE] rise *first*"... before we [which are alive and remain unto] will be "snatched away TOGETHER [with G4862 them]" TO the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR (this is not saying "to MEET THEM where they will be in the air," but "snatched away/up TOGETHER WITH THEM *to* the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR"... meaning "caught up TOGETHER..." AS ONE... AS ONE BODY [which is what WE ARE]... which is in a COMPLETELY DISTINCT way from the "gather ye ONE BY ONE" that happens in Matt24:29-31/Isa27:12-13 at the "GREAT trumpet" AFTER the tribulation and [for them] "to worship the Lord in the holy mount AT JERUSALEM"--and by angels "He SHALL SEND" to do so... In every way DISTINCT from that)

Lastly, Jesus spoke of a FUTURE "AOD [SINGULAR]" which comes AFTER "the beginning of BPs" and those come AFTER the events of 70ad; and He was referring back to Dan12:11 also in the SINGULAR [two verses above Daniel's 12:13 verse about him], so Daniel was told he would "stand in thy lot AT THE END OF THE DAYS"... v.11 (I just mentioned) pertains also to the "day-amounts" in THAT CHPT/CONTEXT... So when you trace this out (if you will), you can see that it is YET FUTURE, and that to "stand IN THY LOT" refers to an EARTHLY location (not UP IN Heaven) for the OT saints... the promised AND PROPHESIED *earthly* Millennial Kingdom. We are called to be "correctly apportioning the word of truth" and distinguishing the things that differ... Set YOUR affection ON THINGS ABOVE... not on Israel's earthly things... is our instruction. But so many BLUR these distinctions into one big mish-mash of MUSH! ;)
You already know I don't agree with the rest lol.
 

cv5

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The 144,000 are sealed and "Added To The Church" present on earth during the 3.5 year tribulation, to preach the gospel of salvation in Jesus Christ.
You just refuse to listen. Ahuwatukee has already quashed your erroneous doctrine
Perhaps repeating it over and over again would help but I doubt it:

"If the saints in the scripture above was referring to the church, how then is the church protected, since the scripture states that the beast is given authority to make war against them and to conquer them, not to mention many of them being beheaded? That doesn't sound like protection to me. However, there's no need to search for an answer, because the saints that are mentioned above, is referring to the great tribulation saints who are revealed in Rev.7:9-17. These are those who will have become believers after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath."
 
Nov 23, 2013
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The word "Thousand Years" represents a "Non-Literal" expression of the Lord's Eternal Spiritual Realm.

You will closely note that Revelation 20:1-6 is seen 100% in the Lord's Spiritual

Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead.

2 Peter 3:8 is the clear explanation of this. "Thousand Years", showing there is no literal time in the Lord's Eternal realm.

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
I completely agree that it's non-literal.
 

Truth7t7

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Really? So why is the day coming upon you like a thief in the night?
The initial response was to a claim that when Jesus returns all Jews were going to be saved.

I responded Jesus was returning like a thief, quickly, no time for a universal acceptance of Jesus.

Keep up with the thread
 
Nov 23, 2013
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Neither Enoch nor Elijah ascended into heaven. God took Enoch and caught up Elijah in a chariot. only Jesus ascended to heaven without assistance.
Yes I agree, Neither Enoch nor Elijah ascended, so in Act's when it says David has not ascended, it isn't talking about making a trip to heaven with Jesus.
 

cv5

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(Mat 27:52) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
(Mat 27:53) And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Read those verses carefully. It says specifically that many bodies of the saints arose AND came out of the graves AND went into the holy city. Joseph was buried in Egypt, did he walk from Egypt and go into Jerusalem? Did Noah walk to Jerusalem? I don't think they did. I think that every person, both good and bad were raised from the dead on that day. The only exception to "those that slept in the dust of the earth" being raised would be the Giants, Nephillim.

You already know I don't agree with the rest lol.
This is not meant to be an insult, it is only an objective observation:
I have never in all of my days met a person was more confused about the Bible than you are.
It really is astounding IMO.
 

Truth7t7

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You just refuse to listen. Ahuwatukee has already quashed your erroneous doctrine
Perhaps repeating it over and over again would help but I doubt it:

"If the saints in the scripture above was referring to the church, how then is the church protected, since the scripture states that the beast is given authority to make war against them and to conquer them, not to mention many of them being beheaded? That doesn't sound like protection to me. However, there's no need to search for an answer, because the saints that are mentioned above, is referring to the great tribulation saints who are revealed in Rev.7:9-17. These are those who will have become believers after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath."
The Saints the the "Beast" overcomes and kills is the "Two Witnesses" when they finish their testimony Rev 11:1-15

Your suggestion that the Saints overcome represents the Church on earth is 100% false.
 

cv5

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The initial response was to a claim that when Jesus returns all Jews were going to be saved.

I responded Jesus was returning like a thief, quickly, no time for a universal acceptance of Jesus.

Keep up with the thread
Paul cannot be more clear that the day does not come upon us, the Church, like a thief in the night, because we are prepared.

You fail to comprehend that it does come as a thief in the night upon those who do not believe in the the rapture. Why? Because those who do not believe in the rapture are not earnestly waiting for the soon return of our Lord Jesus Christ as He has commanded and warned time and time and time again.
 

Truth7t7

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This is not meant to be an insult, it is only an objective observation:
I have never in all of my days met a person was more confused about the Bible than you are.
It really is astounding IMO.
I was sorta thinking the same about you, no hard feelings.
 

cv5

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The Saints the the "Beast" overcomes and kills is the "Two Witnesses" when they finish their testimony Rev 11:1-15

Your suggestion that the Saints overcome represents the Church on earth is 100% false.
My claim? I made no such claim whatsoever.
 

Ahwatukee

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Mar 12, 2015
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Your claim is false, Jesus Christ returns once in the future "Second Coming"
What you said above, is one of the major reasons why you and others don't have any understanding. All you do is read a book by a false teaching and then adopt his teachings and continue to spread these false teachings.

The gathering of the church and the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, are two separate events with different purposes.

Regarding the gathering of the church, the Lord will descend into the atmosphere and with a voice that sounds like a trumpet will say "Come up here!" Where the dead in Christ will rise first. Then those in Christ who are still alive will be changed and caught up with those who just resurrected. At that point the entire church will be gathered in the air to meet the Lord, where He will then take the entire church back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us.

In opposition, at the second coming, the Lord will descend from heaven to the earth with the church following him, where He will have the beast and the false prophet captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire (Rev.19:20). After that, a mighty angel having the key to the Abyss, will seize Satan and throw him into the Abyss where he will be imprisoned for a thousand years, which is during the thousand year reign of Christ.

Jesus returns in fire and final judgement, as the existing heaven and earth are dissolved by the Lords fire.
The final judgment, also known as the great white throne judgment, takes place at the end of the thousand years, which will consist of all of the unrighteous dead throughout all of history. They will be resurrected, with their spirits being let out of Hades to be united with their resurrected bodies and will stand before God at the great white throne to be judged for every idle word they ever spoke.

There will be no Millennial Kingdom after the Lords return, this earth is gone, dissolved!
Sorry, but scripture is very clear that there will be a thousand year period following the tribulation period. The only way that you can claim that there isn't, is by ignoring, allegorizing or symbolizing the thousand years which is mentioned six times in succession.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-8KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Most assuredly, Jesus will return with both His angels and His church. For the scriptures proclaim both groups will return with Him.

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
The Day of the Lord, also known as "the hour of trial" is neither a day nor an hour in length, but instead represents the time period in which God will pour out His wrath and which is seven years in length. The earth isn't destroyed until after the millennial kingdom is over. Below is John speaking after the millennial kingdom and at the start of the great white throne judgment:

At the start of the great white throne judgment:

"Then I saw a great white throne and the One seated on it. Earth and heaven fled from His presence, and no place was found for them.

After the great white throne judgment:

"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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I was sorta thinking the same about you, no hard feelings.
Tragically you fall into the same camp as KJV1611.
Y'all better pay attention buddy. You've got one shot at this. What had better concern you is that those who were indwelt by the Holy Spirit receive the truth and they understand it immediately.

You on the other hand rejected immediately. A cause for deep concern.