the antichrist

1Christianwarrior316 · Dec 26, 2011

@peterT...

Why do you say the beast of Rev 17 is a dragon when scripture call it a beast?

Dan 7:23Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

In Christ, 1Christianwarrior316

peterT · Dec 26, 2011

1Christianwarrior316 said:

i love them verses.

A better example that the heads of the dragon is known as a beast

Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
Revelation 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

peterT · Dec 26, 2011

1Christianwarrior316 said:

@peterT...

Why do you say the beast of Rev 17 is a dragon when scripture call it a beast?

Dan 7:23Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

In Christ, 1Christianwarrior316

Because they are all the same beast Rv12 Rv13 Rv17

pickles · Dec 26, 2011

midwestbob said:

Im sorry I do not know how to highlight , so Ill just speak as I understand.
If I misinterpit anything please forgive as well, as I have cogntive dislexia, so i dont always read properly.
Absolutly we are called to study the scriptures, but we are also called to rely not on our own understanding, but that given in Jesus.
For we are imperfect, but when we seek and study looking to Jesus, understanding is given by the Holy Spirit, so that we will not look to self.
I spoke for those like myself, that struggle with reading and knowladge.
Every day I am humbled and amazed that what I could not do of self, is gven by Jesus.
Many are gifted in study, but some have other gifts, and are sometimes overwhelmed by too much information.
To witness that looking always to Jesus for all needed to disern, is scriptural and also an act of faith bringing rest.
To know Jesus is to disern, and just as important as studying the scriptures.
But no matter how much knowladge one accumulates, one must always first look to Jesus.
For we are not saved by anything we do, but all given through grace and following Jesus Christ is Lord come in the flesh.
As to the debate wether the antichrist is what has and still steals in the world.
One can see well how the antichrist has robbed and decieved, and continues to.
As the scriptures you shared spoke to.
But revelations and other scriptures as well speak to an usherer bringing in a man that will embody the antichrist.
I understand that there is alot of debate on this and its interpitation.
What has brought me to consider that it is both is that satan is the great imposter, and what better way to decieve than for him to try and decieve in spirit and body as well.
Im no scholar, and always willing to learn the truth in Jesus Christ is Lord come in the flesh.
The one thing I have no doubt in though, is that as long as one looks always to Jesus, Jesus will always look to ones care , rest, understanding, and salvation, with the perfect love of God Our Father.
As you said this is a disscussion, where all thoughts and interpitations are debated and shared.
I spoke not for self, but for those like myself that struggle themselves, overcome with too much information.
Witnessing that when one looks always to Jesus, they will not be decieved.
Jesus said I know my sheep, and my sheep know me.
This promise is our rest , our hope and salvation, that will not fail in Jesus Christ is Lord come in the flesh.

God bless
pickles

peterT · Dec 26, 2011

peterT said:

Not only is the seven headed dragon in Rv12 the same beast as in Rv13 and in Rv17 but the four beasts in Daniel 7 are four of the beasts/dragons seven heads.

John says concerning the seven heads in Rv17 five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come. That makes seven.

Now use that same principle from John and johns day to Daniel 7, Daniel lived in Babylon, if he looks back in the past, two have fallen, one is, and then look forward in time, and four is yet to come, That makes seven.

The four beasts in Daniel 7 are four of the seven heads of the dragon/ beast of Revelation

midwestbob · Dec 26, 2011

peterTin post 129 you said:

peterT said:

Show us your interpretation by placing the word “devil” in the red parenthesis by the word beast or dragon as you apply it. Will you also place the words “that’s the man the Antichrist” (or just Antichrist if you prefer) in the verses you say that is applicable. So that we can see how your interpretation goes. If you believe the word beast, he him, his is different in some of these verses then the definition you gave in post 129 then please use the word you believe is the correct interpretation in that application. It would be most interesting to see how you say these verses go based on the definitions you have provided.

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast ( ) rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his ( ) horns ten crowns, and upon his ( ) heads the name of blasphemy.
Rev 13:2 And the beast ( ) which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his ( ) feet were as the feet of a bear, and his ( )mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon ( ) gave him(( )his ( ) power, and his ( ) seat, and great authority.
Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his ( ) heads as it were wounded to death; and his ( ) deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast( ).
Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon ( ) which gave power unto the beast( ): and they worshipped the beast( ), saying, Who is like unto the beast( )? who is able to make war with him( )?
Rev 13: 5 And there was given unto him( ) a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him( ) to continue forty and two months.
Rev 13:6 And he opened his( ) mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his ( ) name, and his( ) tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him( ) to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him( ) over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him( ), whose
names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Rev 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
Rev 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast( ) coming up out of the earth;
and he( ) had two horns like a lamb, and he( ) spake as a dragon.
Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast( ) before him( ), and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast( ), whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev 13:13 And he ( ) doeth great wonders, so that he ( )maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast( ); saying to them that
dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15 And he( ) had power to give life unto the image of the
beast( ), that the image of the beast( ) should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast( ) should be killed.
Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast( ), or the number of his name.
Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast( ): for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six

Also if the beast, and the dragon are both the devil (as you insist), maybe you could explain how that works in the following verse:
Rev 20:10 And the devil (devil)that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast (devil, as you said in your post #129) and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

If a beast is the devil as you say how is it the devil is thrown in the lake of fire where he (the devil) would already be? The verse doesn’t make any sense applying the definitions you gave in your own words!

peterT · Dec 26, 2011

midwestbob said:

peterTin post 129 you said:

Show us your interpretation by placing the word “devil” in the red parenthesis by the word beast or dragon as you apply it. Will you also place the words “that’s the man the Antichrist” (or just Antichrist if you prefer) in the verses you say that is applicable. So that we can see how your interpretation goes. If you believe the word beast, he him, his is different in some of these verses then the definition you gave in post 129 then please use the word you believe is the correct interpretation in that application. It would be most interesting to see how you say these verses go based on the definitions you have provided.

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast ( ) rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his ( ) horns ten crowns, and upon his ( ) heads the name of blasphemy.
Rev 13:2 And the beast ( ) which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his ( ) feet were as the feet of a bear, and his ( )mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon ( ) gave him(( )his ( ) power, and his ( ) seat, and great authority.
Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his ( ) heads as it were wounded to death; and his ( ) deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast( ).
Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon ( ) which gave power unto the beast( ): and they worshipped the beast( ), saying, Who is like unto the beast( )? who is able to make war with him( )?
Rev 13: 5 And there was given unto him( ) a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him( ) to continue forty and two months.
Rev 13:6 And he opened his( ) mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his ( ) name, and his( ) tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him( ) to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him( ) over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him( ), whose
names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Rev 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
Rev 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast( ) coming up out of the earth;
and he( ) had two horns like a lamb, and he( ) spake as a dragon.
Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast( ) before him( ), and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast( ), whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev 13:13 And he ( ) doeth great wonders, so that he ( )maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast( ); saying to them that
dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15 And he( ) had power to give life unto the image of the
beast( ), that the image of the beast( ) should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast( ) should be killed.
Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast( ), or the number of his name.
Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast( ): for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six

Also if the beast, and the dragon are both the devil (as you insist), maybe you could explain how that works in the following verse:
Rev 20:10 And the devil (devil)that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast (devil, as you said in your post #129) and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

If a beast is the devil as you say how is it the devil is thrown in the lake of fire where he (the devil) would already be? The verse doesn’t make any sense applying the definitions you gave in your own words!

Is that you trying to get me to blaspheme again?
You tempt me to sin
Then you accuse me of sinning and report me to Christian chat.

This reminds me of this verse
Matthew 10:21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against [their] parents, and cause them to be put to death.

But I suppose these things have to start somewhere

peterT · Dec 26, 2011

midwestbob said:

peterTin post 129 you said:

Show us your interpretation by placing the word “devil” in the red parenthesis by the word beast or dragon as you apply it. Will you also place the words “that’s the man the Antichrist” (or just Antichrist if you prefer) in the verses you say that is applicable. So that we can see how your interpretation goes. If you believe the word beast, he him, his is different in some of these verses then the definition you gave in post 129 then please use the word you believe is the correct interpretation in that application. It would be most interesting to see how you say these verses go based on the definitions you have provided.

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast ( ) rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his ( ) horns ten crowns, and upon his ( ) heads the name of blasphemy.
Rev 13:2 And the beast ( ) which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his ( ) feet were as the feet of a bear, and his ( )mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon ( ) gave him(( )his ( ) power, and his ( ) seat, and great authority.
Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his ( ) heads as it were wounded to death; and his ( ) deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast( ).
Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon ( ) which gave power unto the beast( ): and they worshipped the beast( ), saying, Who is like unto the beast( )? who is able to make war with him( )?
Rev 13: 5 And there was given unto him( ) a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him( ) to continue forty and two months.
Rev 13:6 And he opened his( ) mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his ( ) name, and his( ) tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him( ) to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him( ) over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him( ), whose
names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Rev 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
Rev 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast( ) coming up out of the earth;
and he( ) had two horns like a lamb, and he( ) spake as a dragon.
Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast( ) before him( ), and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast( ), whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev 13:13 And he ( ) doeth great wonders, so that he ( )maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast( ); saying to them that
dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15 And he( ) had power to give life unto the image of the
beast( ), that the image of the beast( ) should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast( ) should be killed.
Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast( ), or the number of his name.
Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast( ): for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six

Also if the beast, and the dragon are both the devil (as you insist), maybe you could explain how that works in the following verse:
Rev 20:10 And the devil (devil)that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast (devil, as you said in your post #129) and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

If a beast is the devil as you say how is it the devil is thrown in the lake of fire where he (the devil) would already be? The verse doesn’t make any sense applying the definitions you gave in your own words!

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Fill the rest out yourself

Joshua175 · Dec 26, 2011

If anyone has done any study on the end times then some things should be Very clear. One is that there will be a world government and a world ''religion'' Another thing should be really clear. There will be 7 heads and 10 horns consisting of this world power. 7 heads are 7 kingdoms and 10 horns are 10 kings But 1 horn will come up and subdue 3 horns.
"And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time"

A time, times and the dividing of time is three and a half years. Or like most people who know anything about prophecy know, it's the anti-christ's reign. Now this man who is a king and who will do this is correlated with this man because of what it says he did..sat in the holy place and exulted himself above all that is called God.

2 Thessalonians 2:2-4 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

Now I only gave ya'll a little crumpet of what I know but I don't want to write a book so I'll keep it short. There is definitely going to be a man of perdition "the anti-christ" He's definitely going to take over the world and sit in the temple of God, when it is rebuilt and blaspheme the true God and all that is called God. This isn't just a ''traditional'' belief..This is scriptural and it gets Very in depth. To say that there is no one man who is the anti-christ is to ignore all of these scriptures. Just as John had the spirit of Elijah, which just means, the likeness of him; so do many people have the spirit of the anti-christ.That does not take away from the truth of the prophecy that Daniel and other prophets gave of this man of perdition who will take over the world.

midwestbob · Dec 27, 2011

peterT said:

midwestbob said:

peterT in post 129 you said:
“the beast that rises out of the sea is a dragon/ seven kingdoms/the devil that’s been around since the beginning.
and the dragon gave him HIS power, and HIS seat, and great authority that’s the man the Antichrist”
Show us your interpretation by placing the word “devil” in the red parenthesis by the word beast or dragon as you apply it. Will you also place the words “that’s the man the Antichrist” (or just Antichrist if you prefer) in the verses you say that is applicable. So that we can see how your interpretation goes. If you believe the word beast, he him, his is different in some of these verses then the definition you gave in post 129 then please use the word you believe is the correct interpretation in that application. It would be most interesting to see how you say these verses go based on the definitions you have provided.
Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast ( ) rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his ( ) horns ten crowns, and upon his ( ) heads the name of blasphemy.
Rev 13:2 And the beast ( ) which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his ( ) feet were as the feet of a bear, and his ( )mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon ( ) gave him(( )his ( ) power, and his ( ) seat, and great authority.
Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his ( ) heads as it were wounded to death; and his ( ) deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast( ).
Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon ( ) which gave power unto the beast( ): and they worshipped the beast( ), saying, Who is like unto the beast( )? who is able to make war with him( )?
Rev 13: 5 And there was given unto him( ) a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him( ) to continue forty and two months.
Rev 13:6 And he opened his( ) mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his ( ) name, and his( ) tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him( ) to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him( ) over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him( ), whose
names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Rev 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
Rev 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast( ) coming up out of the earth;
and he( ) had two horns like a lamb, and he( ) spake as a dragon.
Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast( ) before him( ), and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast( ), whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev 13:13 And he ( ) doeth great wonders, so that he ( )maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast( ); saying to them that
dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15 And he( ) had power to give life unto the image of the
beast( ), that the image of the beast( ) should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast( ) should be killed.
Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast( ), or the number of his name.
Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast( ): for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six
Also if the beast, and the dragon are both the devil (as you insist), maybe you could explain how that works in the following verse:
Rev 20:10 And the devil (devil)that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast (devil, as you said in your post #129) and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
If a beast is the devil as you say how is it the devil is thrown in the lake of fire where he (the devil) would already be? The verse doesn’t make any sense applying the definitions you gave in your own words!

Is that you trying to get me to blaspheme again?

Ridiculous no one is trying to get you to commit blasphemy . On the other hand I am asking you to clarify your interpretation.

peterT said:

Another baseless and false claim. I haven’t accused you of anything nor have I reported you to Christian chat.

Your continued refusal to clearly state your interpretation coupled with your continuing use of false accusations speak volumes on your ability to defend your position. If you could defend your position with Scripture you would. But because you are incapable of doing so you try to confuse the issue by making baseless accusations. I think we can all see what’s going on. As you are led friend, as you are led.

midwestbob · Dec 27, 2011

Joshua175 said:

Then why are there countless different views when it comes to eschatology? While it is true most churches are in agreement on the core values such as salvation, the number of interpretations of the figurative language of visions and dreams in prophecy are countless. Sadly most are established in the absence of sound hermeneutic principles.

Am I understanding your view correctly? Do you believe Dan7:25 and 2Th2:3-4 are talking about the same individual? If so can you show a hermeneutically sound study that proves this? So far all I have seen is a reason to assume. After all just because two individuals share some of the same traits does not prove they are the same individual.

Many scholars disagree and believe that this a Jewish idiom representing 2 ½ not 3 ½. As for as your statement about the antichrists reign maybe you could enlighten us and show us which one of the only 4 verses in Scripture that uses the term antichrist or antichrist tell us that antichrist will rule the world.
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Where does Scripture say the temple will be rebuilt? Can you provide a hermeneutically sound study of the Scriptures that prove this? We can’t assume that just because Paul told us the man of sin sitteth in the temple of God that the Jews will rebuild the temple. Scripture tells us the temple of God is the body of the believer (1Cor3:16-17 2Cor6:16) or the corporate body of believers (Eph2:19-21). Jesus declared their temple desolate years before it was destroyed rebuilding it won’t make it any less desolate. Besides we have God’s assurance that He does not dwell in temples made with hands (Act7:48 and 17:24). The fact that some Jews remain sovereignly blinded, and could have an interest in rebuilding the temple should not surprise us. But as Christians we should be able to recognize that the only “temple of God” ever since the cross, is the one that Jesus Himself rebuilt in three days. If you want to find the man of sin look in the temple of God, not some desolate building the Jews may or may not build.

Mar 7:13Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Considering the countless number of end time views that are traditionally taught and the fact that they can’t all be correct it is in our best interest to search for the truth. If we don’t, we risk doing exactly as Christ warned against in Mark7:13

2knowhim · Dec 27, 2011

Midwestbob,

Good Post, Good guestions, and good summing up

(Quote)
If you want to find the man of sin look in the temple of God, not some desolate building the Jews may or may not build.

ada · Dec 29, 2011

The curse on the JEWS ((and mankind))?

And of cause, afraid Christians, because of the fear of the JEWS?

Read the blind man story in John..

BLIND MAN - Jesus Heals The Blind Man In John 9

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_Vr5XaF1MI[/video]

midwestbob · Dec 30, 2011

ada said:

Sad to see how those who do not understand the spirit of slumber promote fallacy and hatred. How very sad!

In regard to Jews and the issue of the spirit of antichrist, Jews do believe in the Son. Some haven't yet recognized that Jesus is their Messiah. Romans 11 warns Christians not to be wise in our conceits regarding Jewish blindness, since God Himself gave some of them the "spirit of slumber". That being said, a secular or atheist Jew will likely share the same fate as any other non-believer. Additionally, any Jew that has had this blindness removed, and has come to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, should seek his salvation through Jesus Christ.
Here are a few related scriptures:

Romans 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given themthe spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

Romans 11:16 For if the firstfruit [be] holy, the lump [is] also [holy]: and if the root [be] holy, so [are] the branches.
Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Romans 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Romans 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.

Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemiesfor your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance.

Matthew 9:16 No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse.
Matthew 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

One thing is for sure. Nobody can know the judgments of God. We Christians need to keep that in mind when we witness to others.

Romans 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Is the spirit of slumber (eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear) the same as the spirit of antichrist? One is not allowed to see, one is allowed but still denies, are they the same?

midwestbob · Jan 6, 2012

1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

In the original Greek there is no upper/lower case, nor is the term capitalized in the KJV. The only 4 verses in Scripture (quoted above) that use the term tell us antichrist is a SPIRIT or THE spirit that lives in the heart of anybody that denies Jesus Christ is the Son of God or denies that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. Every man that denieth the Son hath not the Father and is also an antichrist. (Please remember to take Rom11 into consideration concerning Jewish blindness)

It would be hard to say there is a single antichrist, considering there have been literally billions since John wrote the verses approximately 1900 years ago. In today’s world alone we have Muslims (estimates place their population between 1.2 and 1.5 billion), Atheists, etc and the list goes on and on. An individual antichrist is just ANOTHER antichrist.

Many people use the verse 1John2:18 to support the fallacy that John was warning of an individual antichrist (an end time world leader per some doctrines) . But is that really the case or does Scripture show us a better way to understand the verse.

1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time

It doesn’t make sense to believe that the first use of the term antichrist means”The Antichrist” when just 6 words later we are told there are many antichrists. Now let’s take a look at another verse that uses the term antichrist in a singular manner.

1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world

You can see “that”, “spirit”, “it” in this sentence and singular antichrist, just like the singular antichrist in 1John2:18. The translator’s even give us a little extra push in 1John4:3 by inserting the word spirit a second time which emphasizes that the spirit of antichrist is this singular entity.

And lets not forget how beautifully these two vere snippets parallel each other.
“ye have heard that antichrist shall come” “ye have heard that it should come”

Now here’s the problem with using the term “The Antichrist” improperly. Over the years the label has been pinned on countless people some believe it was Nero suggesting that it’s over with (along the lines of Preterism). Most futurists believe it is some future boogeyman that will eventually rule the world. People are continuously trying to guess who “The Antichrist” will be. The misapplication of the term has taken the focus of all the antichrists that surround us. Meanwhile there are between 1.2 and 1.5 (depending on the source) antichrists in Islam alone not counting the atheists etc.. and the list goes on.
Not only has the improper application of the term taken the focus off the literally billions of antichrists from John’s day forward, it has also made the church (with it’s failed predictions on who the antichrist is)look like a bunch of superstitious clowns to those outside the church who continue to laugh at the failed predictions.

If the term were applied properly think how much more soul searching the atheist down the street might do when he was called an antichrist. A term that should be a part of our vocabulary and applied to Muslims, Atheists and the list goes on has been hijacked. Next time you go to church ask a few people what the antichrist is? You’ll get all kinds of names thrown at you but few, if any, will point out that antichrist is a spirit that has inhabited literally billions from John’s time forward.

It might also be worth considering that maybe the reason why God had John write so much later then the others was so that he could address the hereisies that had already entered the church. Consider all the “overcometh”ing of Rev2&3. The above verses are in effect saying you’ve heard that antichrist is coming , but it’s already here! Even if there had been such a concept of a single antichrist in the church, consider the wording “ye have heard”. Ye have heard there is a man in the moon but that doesn’t make it true. It wouldn’t be the first time in Scripture the term ye have heard has been used to correct an error.
Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Christ Himself warned:
Mar 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Could we as Christians be making the word of God of none effect by using the term antichrist improperly? Judge for yourself.

Joh 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

dominicanbeauty · Jan 14, 2012

Search

the antichrist

1Christianwarrior316

Senior Member

peterT

Guest

peterT

Guest

pickles

Senior Member

peterT

Guest

midwestbob

Guest

peterT

Guest

peterT

Guest

Joshua175

Guest

midwestbob

Guest

midwestbob

Guest

2knowhim

Banned

ada

Banned

midwestbob

Guest

midwestbob

Guest

dominicanbeauty

Guest