The Apostleship Of Paul...

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GRACE_ambassador

Well-known member
Feb 22, 2021
3,190
1,598
113
Midwest
#1
Precious friends, are these the four current views of the apostles?:

1) There are twelve, including Matthias (replacing Judas),
Paul not being an apostle?

2) There are twelve, the eleven being in error, choosing Matthias,
instead of Paul?

3) There are thirteen, including Matthias and Paul, all preaching/teaching
the same [ homogenized ] thing?

4) a) There are twelve, according To God's Prophecy / Covenants / Law

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ!” (online):

b) There is One, According To God's Mystery / Grace ( preaching / teaching
Different things )
------------------------------------------------
Please Be Very Richly Encouraged And Edified in the following study:

"
...there is perhaps no place where Paul sets his apostleship forth in stronger
terms than in the first chapter of his epistle to the Galatians, especially in the
very first verse. As you read these opening words, you can almost hear the
thunder in the apostle’s voice as he declares in his opening salvo,

“Paul, an apostle, ( not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ,
and God the Father, Who raised Him from the dead; )” (Gal. 1:1)...​
...Paul didn’t always open his epistles by asserting his apostleship (cf. Rom. 1:1;
Phil. 1:1; etc.), but the Galatians suffered from the same spiritual malady that
afflicts many Christians today—they doubted Paul’s apostolic authority! So
Paul comes out swinging in this epistle by declaring his authority as an
apostle of God. As he himself affirmed,

“in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles” (II Cor. 12:11).​

Who were they? The Lord’s chiefest apostles were Peter, James, and John, men
who are mentioned ten times in Scripture apart from the twelve. Of those three
chiefs, Peter was the chiefest of the chiefs, but Paul was “not a whit behind” him
either (II Cor. 11:5).

But if Paul’s apostleship was equal to Peter’s, and no higher, why do we follow
Paul
? Surely it is because Peter was the apostle of the circumcision, and Paul
was the apostle of the uncircumcision (Gal. 2:8). It is important for a believer
to know who his apostle is!...

...since most of them [ christians ] believe that Paul’s apostleship is of no more
consequence to us than the apostleship of Peter, James, and John, they are forced
to conclude that Paul’s message must be the same as these chief apostles. The
problem with this is that they know that Chief Apostle Peter taught water baptism
was required for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38), while Paul claimed he wasn’t
sent to baptize at all (I Cor. 1:17).

Since most Christians believe that Peter and Paul are of equal authority for
believers today, they have to figure out a way to homogenize these two opposite
and contradictory messages. As you probably know, the solution at which they have
arrived is to conclude, “We’ll still baptize people, just not for the remission of sins!”

In the same vein, most Christians know that Paul taught that if you are saved,
The Lord has already forgiven you “all trespasses” (Col. 2:13). But they also know
that Chief Apostle John teaches that The Lord is “faithful and just to forgive us
our sins” if we confess them (I John 1:9). So to homogenize these two opposite
and contradictory messages they conclude that believers are forgiven when
they get saved, they just need a little more forgiveness when they sin!

This despite the fact that forgiveness of sins is something that every believer
receives the moment he gets saved, along with salvation, justification, and
redemption. Most Christians wouldn’t think of asking for more salvation,
justification, or redemption when they sin, but asking for more forgiveness
is the only way to get Paul and John to say the same thing.

Finally, most Christians know that Paul asserts that salvation is By Grace Through
faith
without works (Rom. 4:5), but they also know that Chief Apostle James is just
as adamant that “faith without works is dead” (James 2:20). So to homogenize
these two opposite and contradictory messages they conclude that Paul is talking
about justification before God while James is addressing the issue of justification
before men, even though The Lord never asked anyone to be justified before
men—in fact, He condemned it (Luke 16:15)!

And on and on it goes, as futile attempts are made to try to blend Paul’s unique
message with the teachings of the Lord’s chiefest apostles, the other writers of
the New Testament...
" (R Kurth)

Full study 'link': The Apostleship Of Paul

Amen.

Study to Be APPROVED Open Bible.png
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
9,526
2,608
113
#2
And on and on it goes, as futile attempts are made to try to blend Paul’s unique
message with the teachings of the Lord’s chiefest apostle
s,
I had no idea it was futile.
I had no idea it was even a problem.

I thought Christian pastors and scholars had been handling this for millennia, and found no problem here at all.

.
.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
59,751
29,121
113
#3
Precious friends, are these the four current views of the apostles?:

1) There are twelve, including Matthias (replacing Judas),
Paul not being an apostle?

2) There are twelve, the eleven being in error, choosing Matthias,
instead of Paul?

3) There are thirteen, including Matthias and Paul, all preaching/teaching
the same [ homogenized ] thing?
Jesus is an apostle... (Hebrews 3:1) .:D


Who Jesus is...
:)
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
#4
But if Paul’s apostleship was equal to Peter’s, and no higher, why do we follow
Paul
?
We follow neither Paul nor Apollos, but Jesus alone.

John 14:6
“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

1 Corinthians 1:
9God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.
10Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
11For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
12Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
4,985
1,261
113
#5
Acts 9:10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
Acts 9:11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
Acts 9:12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
Acts 9:13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
Acts 9:14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:


Here Luke makes very clear that Paul is a "chosen vessel unto" God.




Acts 13:9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him,

Luke writes that Paul was filled with the Holy Spirit and if God felt Paul deserved that then who are we to deny it?



Acts 14:8 And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked:
Acts 14:9 The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed,
Acts 14:10 Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked.

Here through the power of the HS, Paul heals a cripple who never walked in his life.



Acts 14:14 Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,

Here Luke calls Paul an Apostle.
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
2,823
845
113
#6
Precious friends, are these the four current views of the apostles?:

1) There are twelve, including Matthias (replacing Judas),
Paul not being an apostle?

2) There are twelve, the eleven being in error, choosing Matthias,
instead of Paul?

3) There are thirteen, including Matthias and Paul, all preaching/teaching
the same [ homogenized ] thing?

4) a) There are twelve, according To God's Prophecy / Covenants / Law

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ!” (online):

b) There is One, According To God's Mystery / Grace ( preaching / teaching
Different things )
------------------------------------------------
Please Be Very Richly Encouraged And Edified in the following study:

"
...there is perhaps no place where Paul sets his apostleship forth in stronger
terms than in the first chapter of his epistle to the Galatians, especially in the
very first verse. As you read these opening words, you can almost hear the
thunder in the apostle’s voice as he declares in his opening salvo,

“Paul, an apostle, ( not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ,
and God the Father, Who raised Him from the dead; )” (Gal. 1:1)...​
...Paul didn’t always open his epistles by asserting his apostleship (cf. Rom. 1:1;
Phil. 1:1; etc.), but the Galatians suffered from the same spiritual malady that
afflicts many Christians today—they doubted Paul’s apostolic authority! So
Paul comes out swinging in this epistle by declaring his authority as an
apostle of God. As he himself affirmed,

“in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles” (II Cor. 12:11).​

Who were they? The Lord’s chiefest apostles were Peter, James, and John, men
who are mentioned ten times in Scripture apart from the twelve. Of those three
chiefs, Peter was the chiefest of the chiefs, but Paul was “not a whit behind” him
either (II Cor. 11:5).

But if Paul’s apostleship was equal to Peter’s, and no higher, why do we follow
Paul
? Surely it is because Peter was the apostle of the circumcision, and Paul
was the apostle of the uncircumcision (Gal. 2:8). It is important for a believer
to know who his apostle is!...

...since most of them [ christians ] believe that Paul’s apostleship is of no more
consequence to us than the apostleship of Peter, James, and John, they are forced
to conclude that Paul’s message must be the same as these chief apostles. The
problem with this is that they know that Chief Apostle Peter taught water baptism
was required for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38), while Paul claimed he wasn’t
sent to baptize at all (I Cor. 1:17).

Since most Christians believe that Peter and Paul are of equal authority for
believers today, they have to figure out a way to homogenize these two opposite
and contradictory messages. As you probably know, the solution at which they have
arrived is to conclude, “We’ll still baptize people, just not for the remission of sins!”

In the same vein, most Christians know that Paul taught that if you are saved,
The Lord has already forgiven you “all trespasses” (Col. 2:13). But they also know
that Chief Apostle John teaches that The Lord is “faithful and just to forgive us
our sins” if we confess them (I John 1:9). So to homogenize these two opposite
and contradictory messages they conclude that believers are forgiven when
they get saved, they just need a little more forgiveness when they sin!

This despite the fact that forgiveness of sins is something that every believer
receives the moment he gets saved, along with salvation, justification, and
redemption. Most Christians wouldn’t think of asking for more salvation,
justification, or redemption when they sin, but asking for more forgiveness
is the only way to get Paul and John to say the same thing.

Finally, most Christians know that Paul asserts that salvation is By Grace Through
faith
without works (Rom. 4:5), but they also know that Chief Apostle James is just
as adamant that “faith without works is dead” (James 2:20). So to homogenize
these two opposite and contradictory messages they conclude that Paul is talking
about justification before God while James is addressing the issue of justification
before men, even though The Lord never asked anyone to be justified before
men—in fact, He condemned it (Luke 16:15)!

And on and on it goes, as futile attempts are made to try to blend Paul’s unique
message with the teachings of the Lord’s chiefest apostles, the other writers of
the New Testament...
" (R Kurth)

Full study 'link': The Apostleship Of Paul

Amen.

View attachment 257915
Paul wrote much more of the New Testament, Peter only wrote two letters.
Paul wrote most of the church doctrine, Peter added very little.
Peter deferred to Paul, Peter was not educated but Paul was educated.
When it comes to understanding Christianity, Paul's letters dominate.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,408
6,693
113
#7
Many wrote more than the Apostles beginning with Martin Luther, the RCC, and just about any doctrine peddler selling another denomination.

For those who actually read the Word, the twelve foundations of New Jerusalem are inscribed with the names of the Twelve, that is the Twelve with Mattias who replaced Judea's. Undeniable except by any who claim to know but do not believe the writings from our Maker.

After all this forum is founded upon discussing the Bible,, not just some of the Bible.
 

GRACE_ambassador

Well-known member
Feb 22, 2021
3,190
1,598
113
Midwest
#8
I thought Christian pastors and scholars had been handling this for millennia, and found no problem here at all.
Logically speaking?:
For those who actually read the Word, the twelve foundations of New Jerusalem are inscribed with the names of the Twelve, that is the Twelve with Mattias who replaced Judea's. Undeniable except by any who claim to know but do not believe the writings from our Maker.
Excellent! But, from another forum there is this futile logic?:

"unlike Paul, Matthias, was never heard of again. After his selection to be the twelfth apostle he is never mentioned again in Scripture.

The evidence is clear. The twelve apostles were also specially chosen and commissioned by Jesus. Jesus chose Paul as an apostle. He did not choose Matthias. The power of the Holy Spirit had not yet come to the apostles when they chose Matthias to replace Judas. History makes it clear that Paul was God’s choice – he was one of the two central figures in the Book of Acts and early Christian history while Matthias was never heard of again." (rr144)

So, logically, can I now deduce that:

1) Since Peter, James/John [sons of Zebedee], and Paul "were heard of again,"
that Christ Chose them, but:​

2) Since Andrew, Bartholomew, Nathaniel, Thomas, Lebbaeus [ surnamed
Thaddaeus ], and Simon, the Canaanite, and 'Matthias' "were Never heard​
of again, that "Christ Did NOT Choose them."​
Is this futile logic an Authorized By God Bible hermeneutic?

cc: @maxwel?

Amen.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
59,751
29,121
113
#9
So, logically, can I now deduce that:
The eleven apostles did not wait as Jesus instructed, but took an action that has had reverberations throughout history.

Though truthfully, those reverberations have had nowhere near the impact that Paul has had on Christianity.

Not even close...
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,770
113
#10
There are twelve, according To God's Prophecy / Covenants / Law...
Why did you fail to add "Excluding Matthias and including Paul"?

Revelation 21:14 makes it quite clear that there are ONLY "twelve apostles of the Lamb". Clearly Paul was the leading apostle in many ways, but the other eleven were not insignificant. However there is no conflict between the teachings in Paul's epistles and the teachings of Peter, James, or John. And there is no conflict between Paul and James regarding justification (rightly understood). The NT is one harmonious whole, since the Holy Spirit is the actual Author.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
13,000
4,313
113
#11
Paul was an Apostle called by the Lord Jesus, just as Peter and the others were. " As one born out of time."
"I am what I am by the grace of God." 1cor 15:10
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,408
6,693
113
#12
Mattias fulfilled the prophecy of replacing Judas in the Psalms. Perhaps, though not of the Twelve, Paul is an apostle after the definition of one, but he is not the one who fulfilled prophecy.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
13,000
4,313
113
#13
Mattias fulfilled the prophecy of replacing Judas in the Psalms. Perhaps, though not of the Twelve, Paul is an apostle after the definition of one, but he is not the one who fulfilled prophecy.


"Paul is an apostle after the definition of one, but he is not the one who fulfilled prophecy."

Please explain this? I do not want to disagree without understanding your intent.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,408
6,693
113
#14
The translation of apostle is rather simple and known by most, it means to be sent out..
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
4,985
1,261
113
#15
Acts 14:14 Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,

Here Luke calls Paul an Apostle.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,408
6,693
113
#16
Yes, one sent out. Luke is the Evangelist who was not one of the Twelve, rather he was a believing doctor of that time.

We must all read the Old Testament in order to fully understand the New. Then we may pronounce upon all of the Word, .
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
5,219
2,618
113
London
christianchat.com
#17
The eleven apostles did not wait as Jesus instructed, but took an action that has had reverberations throughout history.

Though truthfully, those reverberations have had nowhere near the impact that Paul has had on Christianity.

Not even close...
The Hebrew church waned, the Gentile church waxed.
 

goga

New member
Nov 25, 2023
22
13
3
#18
Acts 14:14 Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,

Here Luke calls Paul an Apostle.
Who was Luke? Paul's secretary. What do secretaries do? Whatever boss tells them. Questions?
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
18,819
6,467
113
62
#19
Who was Luke? Paul's secretary. What do secretaries do? Whatever boss tells them. Questions?
Luke was the Holy Spirit's secretary. Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
 

goga

New member
Nov 25, 2023
22
13
3
#20
I'm not arguing, just giving a different perspective. Of coarse they were in the same boat. Paul was a teacher though.