The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

[fredoheaven]

Romans 5:6 KJV — For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

Context tells us who are the ungodly to whom Christ died. Exactly NO elect was ever found rather sinners, and such as we are ALL. ALL here is ALL men
Romans 5:8 KJV — But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Romans 5:12 KJV — Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

 

[brightfame52]

Yes, God is willing to give mercy to all yet only effected to those who cry for it. The blind crave for mercy and they obtained, likewise spiritually blind i.e. "ALL" will be given mercy as long as they ask for it. Your "Elect" is your addition to suit to your presentation and counted as nothing. ALL means ALL men to whom Christ died.

You seem in the dark friend

 

[fredoheaven]

You seem in the dark friend

Glory to God!
2 Corinthians 4:6 KJV — For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Here's a thing, not all bright are radiant and

2 Corinthians 11:14 KJV — And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Lk 2:30

30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,

Little be it known, this statement is meant of the Death/Work of Christ

... let's find out more about the context of Luke 2:30 to see if the Author of Scripture spoke of "the Death/Work of Christ" in the verse:

Joseph and Mary brought Jesus to the temple according to the law of the Lord:

Luke 2:

22 And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;

23 (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord; )

24 And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.


... then we read about Simeon ... let's get a little background about who he was:

Luke 2:

25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.

26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.

27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law


Now let's read what Simeon said:

Luke 2:28-32

28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said

29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:

30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,

31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;

32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.


vs 28 – Simeon saw Jesus, recognized Him as Messiah, and gave praise and worship to God

vs 29-32 – Simeon could now depart in peace because he had seen Messiah ... Simeon had been waiting for the consolation of Israel (vs 25) ... the Holy Spirit had revealed to Simeon that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ (vs 26).

Simeon declared God's promise to Abraham all the way back in Genesis:

Genesis 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Simeon also declared what was written in Scripture concerning Messiah being the light of the gentiles:

Isaiah 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles

Isaiah 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

that makes Christ's Salvation fall short of God's Glory, makes it only a Whimsical possibility

God imputing righteousness to those who believe God's promises does not in any way, shape or form make "Christ's Salvation fall short of God's Glory" nor does belief in God's promises "makes it only a Whimsical possibility".

When a person believes God's promises ... that brings glory to God because that person is no longer relying on his or her self ... he or she is relying on God and His faithfulness to fulfill His promises:

Romans 4:20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God

Faith brings glory to God. Period.

1 Tim 1:15

15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

This means to actualize their Salvation from sin, anything short of that would be failure.

read the next verse, brightfame52:

1 Timothy 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

All who believe on Him to life everlasting will absolutely see life everlasting.

Those who do not believe on Him will not see life everlasting ... not because of any failure on the part of God ... or on the part of the Lord Jesus Christ.

You blame God for the failure of mankind after God warns mankind that if they do not trust Him ... and believe He means what He says ... they will suffer the consequence of their decision to not believe Him.

1 Pet 2:24

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

...

this confirms that He brings about the actualization of their Salvation and not a possibility !

ignoring context, brightfame52, does not make true your erroneous dogma.

Look at 1 Peter 2:6 to see who is dead to sins and who should live unto righteousness and who is healed by His stripes:

1 Peter 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

this confirms that He brings about the actualization of their Salvation and not a possibility !

Lk 1:68-77

Luke 1:68-77 are prophetic words spoken by Zacharias concerning his son, John Baptist (which you would know if you paid attention to context brightfame52)


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.

 

[brightfame52]

Romans 5:6 KJV — For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

Context tells us who are the ungodly to whom Christ died. Exactly NO elect was ever found rather sinners, and such as we are ALL. ALL here is ALL men
Romans 5:8 KJV — But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Romans 5:12 KJV — Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Rom 8:33-34 tells us who Christ died for is the elect Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

 

[brightfame52]

The work of Christ is Salvation !2

Today in false christianity/religion, Christ's Work has been reduced to only accomplishing a possibility/ chance for Salvation, leaving it up to man to make it an actual experience.

The Death of Christ alone has effected into actualization the full Salvation of those He came to Save, His People Matt 1:21:

That includes Redemption, Reconciliation, Propitiation, and Justification, and Sanctification with final Glorification !

His Death was Authorized by God to save all for whom He died from the Penalty and Power of Sin, that's the meaning of Lk 1:71,74-75

71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,

75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.


To be saved and or delivered from our enemies ! One of the Prime Enemies is satan, the Devil, an adversary 1 Pet 5:8

8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Now the word adversary antidikos means opponent, enemy, The Devil is one of the enemies of the People of God, those made in His Image and Likness ! It was first seen with his attack against the first of God's People in Adam and Eve, they were the Church at that Time, the Body of Christ ! Thats why Paul uses that incident in counseling with the Church at Corinth 2 Cor 11:2-3

2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

That is evidence that he was an enemy of the People of God from the dawn of world history.

Now the devil, the serpent, satan is one of the enemies the people of God must be delivered from in order for Christ's coming to die and be our Salvation can be successful ! Lk 1:71

71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

Satan was the enemy of Adam and Eve and hated them for God's Image sake ! Now, will those He came to be Saviour unto, be saved out of his hand ?

 

[fredoheaven]

Rom 8:33-34 tells us who Christ died for is the elect Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

God's matter of election in the context has to do with those already saved, to the saints v.27 or those who love the Lord v.28. They were chosen for service. So naturally, saved are chosen to serve. Umm, the verses does not provide Christ death is for the elect as the whole chapter relates to the saved.

 

[brightfame52]

God's matter of election in the context has to do with those already saved, to the saints v.27 or those who love the Lord v.28. They were chosen for service. So naturally, saved are chosen to serve. Umm, the verses does not provide Christ death is for the elect as the whole chapter relates to the saved.

This passage is one of many that shows that Christ died for the elect, And one is elect prior to Christs death for them. In fact election by God was before the foundation of the world. Eph 1:4

 

[fredoheaven]

This passage is one of many that shows that Christ died for the elect, And one is elect prior to Christs death for them. In fact election by God was before the foundation of the world. Eph 1:4

Nop, i am not seeing that as far as the passage is concern. They were chosen for the purpose to serve. This is the same with Ephesians 1:4 " in him" speaks solely of saved sinners who have all the spiritual blessings and who are they whom he had chosen? They are sinners who first trusted in Christ. Eph.1:12.

 

[John146]

This passage is one of many that shows that Christ died for the elect, And one is elect prior to Christs death for them. In fact election by God was before the foundation of the world. Eph 1:4

Christ was elect. He was elected to serve. Election is to service, never salvation.

Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

 

[brightfame52]

Nop, i am not seeing that as far as the passage is concern. They were chosen for the purpose to serve. This is the same with Ephesians 1:4 " in him" speaks solely of saved sinners who have all the spiritual blessings and who are they whom he had chosen? They are sinners who first trusted in Christ. Eph.1:12.

Lol, Im not here to give what you see in the passage, this is what I see in the passage, Christ specifically died for the elect. And yes they are elect before Christ died for them, before they believe, just like the Sheep, which are the same as the Elect, they are Gods Sheep prior to Christ dying for them and before they believe.

 

[brightfame52]

Christ was elect. He was elected to serve. Election is to service, never salvation.

Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

Christ is the elect, and so were them Chosen in Him before the foundation.

 

[fredoheaven]

Lol, Im not here to give what you see in the passage, this is what I see in the passage, Christ specifically died for the elect. And yes they are elect before Christ died for them, before they believe, just like the Sheep, which are the same as the Elect, they are Gods Sheep prior to Christ dying for them and before they believe.

Umm, I just failed to see yours in proper context

 

[John146]

Christ is the elect, and so were them Chosen in Him before the foundation.

Christ was chosen to receive salvation? Is this your position?

 

[brightfame52]

The work of Christ is Salvation !3

Salvation entails for it to be Salvation, to be saved from our enemies Lk 1:71

That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

The word saved Soteria means:

Deliverance, Preservation, Safety, also in a ethical sense, that which results in or concludes to the Souls Safety and or Salvation.

This indicates that to be saved must extend to that of being saved not only from the Penalty of sin, but from its Power also in order that the saved shall serve God as Per Lk 1:74-75

to rescue us from the hand of our enemies,
and to enable us to serve him without fear

75
in holiness and righteousness before him all our days.NIV

That word serve latreu means to serve/worship in a capacity of a Priest, to discharge that Office.

Remember the result of the redeeming death and blood of Christ acknowledged here Rev 5:9-10

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.;

The word also means to worship God as in Phil 3:3

3 For we are the circumcision, which worship/serve God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Its the word used in Heb 9:14

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve/worship the living God?

Which the Blood of Christ is here identified to be the source by which is effected the purging of the conscience from something [dead works] to something [serving/worshiping] the True Living God !

BTW this verse condemns all who deny that the Death/Blood of Christ alone effects Salvation/ Conversion from the Power of sin to a life of Faith and Worship/Serving as a Priest unto God. For certainly there cannot be worship of God without True Faith, So Faith to serve / worship God with, is a by product/effect of the Blood of Christ, the Death of Christ ! 40

 

[brightfame52]

Christ was chosen to receive salvation? Is this your position?

Yes, Yet it was for them Chosen in Him and for whom He died Heb 9:12

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Christ's Work has been reduced to only accomplishing a possibility/ chance for Salvation, leaving it up to man to make it an actual experience.

... your statement is straw man because up to this point no one who has posted in this thread believes their faith "accomplishes a possibility/ chance for Salvation".

All who have submitted comments on this thread know that salvation is wholly of God by grace through faith ... just as written in Scripture:

Ephesians 2:8 [NASB] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this [Greek touto] is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God

Harold W. Hoehner in the Bible Knowledge Commentary writes that…

Much debate has centered around the demonstrative pronoun “this” (touto). Though some think it refers back to “grace” and others to “faith,” neither of these suggestions is really valid because the demonstrative pronoun is neuter whereas “grace” and “faith” are feminine. Also, to refer back to either of these words specifically seems to be redundant. Rather the neuter touto, as is common, refers to the preceding phrase or clause. ... Thus it refers back to the concept of salvation (Eph 2:4, 5, 6, 7, 8a), whose basis is grace and means is faith. This salvation does not have its source in man (it is “not from yourselves”), but rather, its source is God’s grace for “it is the gift of God.”
(Walvoord, J. F., Zuck, R. B., et al: The Bible Knowledge Commentary. 1985. Victor)​

all for whom He died

"all for whom He died" ... what is stated in Scripture:

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

The Devil is one of the enemies of the People of God, those made in His Image and Likness !

According to Genesis 1, Adam and Eve were made in the image and likeness of God:

Genesis 1:26-27 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.


According to Genesis 5, descendants of Adam and Eve are begotten in the image and likeness of their father and mother:

Genesis 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth


there is a time yet future when born again believers will be like the Lord Jesus Christ, for we shall see Him as He is ...

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.


At this point in time, born again believers have the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

This indicates that to be saved must extend to that of being saved not only from the Penalty of sin, but from its Power

Your claim that to be saved extends to "being saved not only from the Penalty of sin, but its Power" contradicts your claim that "those He died for" can continue "being ungodly sinners".

those He died for do not have to believe it, accept itor do anything but continue being ungodly sinners

​

If they are saved from the Power of sin, how could they ... or why would they ... continue being ungodly sinners ... which, according to Romans 6, renders them in bondage to sin:

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Faith to serve / worship God with, is a by product/effect of the Blood of Christ, the Death of Christ !

Since, according to Scripture, the Lord Jesus Christ died for the sins of the whole world (John 1:29; John 3:16,17; 2 Corinthians 5:19; 1 John 2:2) ... all descendants of Adam ...

then, according to your statement, all descendants of Adam have faith ... which is what I have been telling you, brightfame52.

The issue is not "do you have faith" ... the issue is "in Whom do you have faith" ... it is not faith that saves. It is the OBJECT of faith Who saves.


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.

 

[brightfame52]

... your statement is straw man because up to this point no one who has posted in this thread believes their faith "accomplishes a possibility/ chance for Salvation".

All who have submitted comments on this thread know that salvation is wholly of God by grace through faith ... just as written in Scripture:

Ephesians 2:8 [NASB] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this [Greek touto] is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God

Harold W. Hoehner in the Bible Knowledge Commentary writes that…

Much debate has centered around the demonstrative pronoun “this” (touto). Though some think it refers back to “grace” and others to “faith,” neither of these suggestions is really valid because the demonstrative pronoun is neuter whereas “grace” and “faith” are feminine. Also, to refer back to either of these words specifically seems to be redundant. Rather the neuter touto, as is common, refers to the preceding phrase or clause. ... Thus it refers back to the concept of salvation (Eph 2:4, 5, 6, 7, 8a), whose basis is grace and means is faith. This salvation does not have its source in man (it is “not from yourselves”), but rather, its source is God’s grace for “it is the gift of God.” ​

(Walvoord, J. F., Zuck, R. B., et al: The Bible Knowledge Commentary. 1985. Victor)​

"all for whom He died" ... what is stated in Scripture:

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.





According to Genesis 1, Adam and Eve were made in the image and likeness of God:

Genesis 1:26-27 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.


According to Genesis 5, descendants of Adam and Eve are begotten in the image and likeness of their father and mother:

Genesis 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth


there is a time yet future when born again believers will be like the Lord Jesus Christ, for we shall see Him as He is ...

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.


At this point in time, born again believers have the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.

Now be honest, dont you believe this ?

Christ's Work has been reduced to only accomplishing a possibility/ chance for Salvation, leaving it up to man to make it an actual experience.

 

[brightfame52]

Your claim that to be saved extends to "being saved not only from the Penalty of sin, but its Power" contradicts your claim that "those He died for" can continue "being ungodly sinners".

​

If they are saved from the Power of sin, how could they ... or why would they ... continue being ungodly sinners ... which, according to Romans 6, renders them in bondage to sin:

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?





Since, according to Scripture, the Lord Jesus Christ died for the sins of the whole world (John 1:29; John 3:16,17; 2 Corinthians 5:19; 1 John 2:2) ... all descendants of Adam ...

then, according to your statement, all descendants of Adam have faith ... which is what I have been telling you, brightfame52.

The issue is not "do you have faith" ... the issue is "in Whom do you have faith" ... it is not faith that saves. It is the OBJECT of faith Who saves.


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.

You seem to be like most, having taken the blessings of Christs death, like Faith and Repentance, and have turned them into conditions men must perform in order to get saved,