Angels in Scripture have been referred to as "sons of God." Example - Job 1:6.
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord,
and Satan came also among them.
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The book of Job
- Thread starter ZNP
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Angels in Scripture have been referred to as "sons of God." Example - Job 1:6.
(Of course)... IMHO.
I believe there had to be a probation period permitted by God while Lucifer was ignorantly heading towards a point of no return.
Why?
Rebellion had been a foreign concept to angels before Satan's fall.
It was non-existent before Lucifer began the process of his falling.
Angels, had lived in a pure world with God, and had no need for the knowledge of good and evil until after evil was finally born.
That is why I believe God needed to introduce a new process for the first time to angels who up until then had not known evil amongst themselves.
I believe God, wanting to teach about what was taking place with Lucifer's error in judgment, and God had to do something discourage such thinking Something that would make Lucifer realize that he was not as powerful as he was assuming himself to be. So, God made sure to show Lucifer that God was much stronger by introducing discipline that Lucifer did not have the power to stop.
One way for God to introduce showing who "is boss" was to apply discipline ---
Like a Father does for the first time to a very young son who had been never disciplined before.
One step at a time....
I believe Job, Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar, Elihu, "all his brothers, and all his sisters, and all who had known him before" ... all of them ... believed that satan's affliction upon Job was a result of sin on the part of Job and that God was behind all the suffering inflicted upon Job.
All of them had an excuse for this belief as they were completely ignorant of what is revealed in the opening chapters of the book. In our day and time, readers of the record have no excuse for attributing sin to Job because God explicitly states satan acted against Job and God restrained satan from utterly destroying Job.
While Job touched on the fact that bad things happen to good and bad alike, Job believed it was God Who was behind all activity (He destroyeth the perfect and the wicked - Job 9:22).
Job begged God to reveal to him any sin on his part (How many are mine iniquities and sins? make me to know my transgression and my sin - Job 13:23) ... even though Job did not believe he had sinned. Job believed God was punishing him and he could not understand why he was being punished.
We know God was not punishing Job because God tells us it was satan who destroyed Job's herds, killed his servants and his children, and afflicted him with sore boils. Job and his friends and family were ignorant of the activity of satan.
The basic belief at the time was good behavior leads to blessings from God and bad behavior results in discipline from God ... the reason a person went through hard times, suffering, disaster was because he or she had sinned against God. There are some who believe the same in our day and time. This belief occurs because folks do not take into account the records in Scripture which reveal the activities of satan ...
... satan was/is/and always will be a murderer, satan did not abide in the truth, satan is a liar and the father of lies:
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it
... the ministry of satan is to steal, kill, destroy:
John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly
... satan deceives through false apostles, deceitful workers:
2 Corinthians 11:13-14 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light
... we have all that is needed to stand against the wiles of the devil who manipulates the rulers of this world. the battle is spiritual in nature:
Ephesians 6:11-12 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places
... satan deceives with power, signs, and lying wonders:
2 Thessalonians 2:8-9 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders
... satan roams about seeking to devour:
1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour
Recall satan's words in Job 1 and 2 when God asked him "Whence comest thou?" ... satan's response "From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it".
... satan deceives the whole world:
Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him
The point is not every bad thing that happens to someone is due to God punishing them for their sin. God does not hide from us the fact that we will go through hard times in this life ... we will suffer persecution, affliction, turmoil. God also tells us that as we go through trying times, we are never alone. God works within us to help us through. God guides us ... God strengthens us ... God comforts us in all our afflictions we endure.
2 Corinthians 1:3-4
3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.
I wonder what Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar, Elihu would have said to Job if they had known about satan. Rather than accuse Job of sinning, would they have comforted him, encouraged him to stand strong and remain faithful, reminded Job that God was with him? And how soothing would those words have been to Job? ... while his physical discomfort would have still been with him, comforting words might have eased his anxiety and frustration.
long story short ... look up retribution theology. The book of Job counters this belief (retribution) and reveals that God has an adversary (satan) who attacks God's people.
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Thank you. By now you probably know we agree on so much about the Book of Job. I believe our basic interpretation as a whole is the same.
Anyway, the reason I asked is because while studying this story, Job 42:11 struck me very hard one day. It became for me one of those pillars for my understanding of the book as a whole.
First let me say, yes, it is satan who attacks Job. No doubt. satan hated Job and wanted to not only hurt Job, but destroy Job’s beautiful relationship with God.
Yes, I can understand that Job, his three friends, and Elihu might not understand that it was satan attacking Job. But one question on that point is — what about the author of the book?
The author knows what happened in heaven in chapters 1 & 2. Then the author tells us in 42:11 that it was God who brought the evil on Job.
Also, it seems to me by satan’s statements that he would have already attacked Job had he had opportunity. But what does satan say? When God asks if he has considered his servant Job, satan tells God that there is a hedge of protection around him protecting Job from satan’s attacks.
satan then makes his false claim that Job will curse God if he the barrier is gone and Job loses his possessions. Then God removes the barrier. Satan could not attack Job unless God Himself had removed the barrier. We also know God knew what satan would do after He lifted the barrier, which is why God set parameters.
For what it’s worth, Job himself also addresses this idea in Job 2:10 in his reply to his wife.
Job 2:10
What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?
I am familiar with the idea of retribution theology, but it would appear that that is not what Job is talking about here. He knows he has not sinned to incur his suffering. So it seems his statement is one of accepting that God is allowing this evil to happen to him, although he does not understand why.
What do you think about these examples from other stories in Scripture?
JONAH
Jonah 1:12-15
And he [Jonah] said unto them [mariners], Take me up, and cast me forth into the sea; so shall the sea be calm unto you . . . So they took up Jonah, and cast him forth into the sea: and the sea ceased from her raging.
Jonah 2:3 (Jonah’s Prayer)
For Thou [God] hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and Thy waves passed over me.
Who is responsible for throwing Jonah into the sea?
JOSEPH
Genesis 37:28
Then there passed by Midianites merchantmen; and they [Joseph’s brothers] drew and lifted up Joseph out of the pit, and sold Joseph to the Ishmeelites for twenty pieces of silver: and they brought Joseph into Egypt.
Psalm 105:16, 17
Moreover He [God] called for a famine upon the land: He brake the whole staff of bread.
He [God] sent a man before them, even Joseph, who was sold for a servant:
Who is responsible for Joseph going down to Egypt?
And did the Romans kill Jesus? Or did Jesus lay down His life and accept that God sent Him to be an atoning sacrifice for our sins?
I see the book of Job as a very unique story. I’m not saying this is your view necessarily, but it seems to me that a lot of people look at Job and think first about themselves and their personal suffering. I find this view rather myopic. What I concluded to be a better view was to look at Job and think first and foremost about Jesus Christ and His suffering. Job is not Jesus, but like many Old Testament characters and stories, Job is revealing something of the Messiah, the Suffering Servant, who was to come.
How was he a murderer from the beginning?
When he wanted to make himself to be like the Most High?
Wanted to be the one to receive the worship of the angels as the Lord had?
In his heart? He wanted to assassinate the Lord and take his place!
That means? "Murder."
Job 42:11 indicates that Job's brothers, sisters, and acquaintances ... "they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him" ... they believed God had brought evil upon Job. We know it was satan who wrought evil in Job's life ... the author of the book of Job knew it was satan ... Job's brothers, sisters, and acquaintances believed Job suffered at the Hand of God. They did not know about satan.
The Author does not clarify that it was error on their part to claim God had brought evil upon Job. The Author expects the reader to keep in mind what was written in prior chapters.
right ... so that means satan had considered Job ... and God knew satan had considered Job ... and God knew satan would do what he did before satan did it. Does that mean God was ultimately responsible? I do not believe so.
In Genesis, God knew before Adam and Eve sinned that they would sin ... which is why the Lord Jesus Christ is the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Revelation 13:8) ... from the foundation (before Adam and Eve were living) ... not from the time Adam and Eve sinned.
God knowing they would sin does not make God responsible for sin. God knowing satan would deceive Eve does not make God the deceiver.
God knowing satan would attack Job does not make God responsible for the attack on Job.
Did Job receive evil "at the hand of God"? Who smote Job with sore boils?
Job 2:7 So went satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.
Job believed his sorry state was from God ... we know it was satan who smote Job with sore boils.
yes, Job did not understand at all.
And we know Job was at a very low point in his life ... he had lost his children, he was afflicted with boils over his whole body, he was feverish, he couldn't eat, he couldn't sleep ... all of this would weigh heavily on a person.
Then he's got Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar telling him he had to have sinned and God was punishing him for his sin. How would those statements affect a person who was in the state Job was in?
If you were in Job's position, would you start to think that maybe you had done something you shouldn't have? ... that maybe you had sinned?
I believe Job had some doubt because he did ask God to reveal to his sin to him ... and I believe Job asked so that he could repent if God revealed to him that he had sinned.
continued ...
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... continued ...
In Jonah's case, I do believe it was God who caused the tempest in the sea (Jonah 1:4).
Jonah also told the men on the ship that he had fled from God ... "For the men knew that he fled from the presence of the LORD, because he had told them" (Jonah 1:10).
Even after Jonah told them to throw him overboard so the sea would be calm for them (Jonah 1:11-12), they "rowed hard to bring it to the land; but they could not: for the sea wrought, and was tempestuous against them" (Jonah 1:13). When they saw they could not fight against the tempest, they prayed that they would not perish (Jonah 1:14).
I believe Jonah thought he would die for his disobedience when he was cast into the sea. However, "the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah" (Jonah 1:17).
Jonah was firmly persuaded through his experience and he came away with strengthened faith in God:
Jonah 2:7-10
7 When my soul fainted within me I remembered the LORD: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple.
8 They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy.
9 But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD.
10 And the LORD spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land.
However, Jonah still was not pleased when God spared Nineveh (Jonah 4:1).
If they had not sold Joseph, Reuben would have returned to fetch Joseph out of the pit:
Genesis 37:22 Reuben said unto them, Shed no blood, but cast him into this pit that is in the wilderness, and lay no hand upon him; that he might rid him out of their hands, to deliver him to his father again
And Reuben did come back later to get Joseph but Joseph was gone:
Genesis 37:29 Reuben returned unto the pit; and, behold, Joseph was not in the pit; and he rent his clothes"
It is clear from Psalm 105 that God "called for a famine upon the land". When Joseph interpreted pharaoh's dream, pharaoh set Joseph over his house (Genesis 41:40) and Egypt benefitted mightily under Joseph's stewardship.
Who knows? Maybe God had a plan for all that wealth brought into Egypt through the stewardship of Joseph ... when the children of Israel left Egypt, they did not leave empty-handed ... they brought much wealth from Egypt with them.
Genesis 45:5-8
5 Now therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: for God did send me before you to preserve life.
6 For these two years hath the famine been in the land: and yet there are five years, in the which there shall neither be earing nor harvest.
7 And God sent me before you to preserve you a posterity in the earth, and to save your lives by a great deliverance.
8 So now it was not you that sent me hither, but God: and he hath made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt.
Joseph was an amazing believer ... imho, we could learn a lot from studying his absolute faith in God and his meekness in accepting all the wrongs he went through ... from his brothers ... from Potiphar's wife ... from the baker who forgot about him for two years. And yet, when he saw his brothers who had thrown him into the pit and then sold him as a servant, his heart was still tender toward them. Although he did make them sweat a little.
The record in John says:
John 19:28-30
28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
29 Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth.
30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
Jesus knew all that needed to be accomplished was accomplished ... He said "It is finished" ... "He bowed His head" ... He "gave up the ghost".
The Jews held a mockery of a trial and handed Jesus over to the Romans. Both Jews and gentiles were involved in the crucifixion so neither Jew nor gentile can point fingers at each other on that point ... but the crucifixion did not kill the Lord Jesus Christ. The Lord Jesus Christ willingly laid down His life.
I love the verses where Job declared "I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me" (Job 19:25-27) ... Job was a wonderful believer.
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First of all, we know Jonah had fled from God when he did not want to do what God asked Jonah to do.
In Jonah's case, I do believe it was God who caused the tempest in the sea (Jonah 1:4).
Jonah also told the men on the ship that he had fled from God ... "For the men knew that he fled from the presence of the LORD, because he had told them" (Jonah 1:10).
Even after Jonah told them to throw him overboard so the sea would be calm for them (Jonah 1:11-12), they "rowed hard to bring it to the land; but they could not: for the sea wrought, and was tempestuous against them" (Jonah 1:13). When they saw they could not fight against the tempest, they prayed that they would not perish (Jonah 1:14).
I believe Jonah thought he would die for his disobedience when he was cast into the sea. However, "the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah" (Jonah 1:17).
Jonah was firmly persuaded through his experience and he came away with strengthened faith in God:
Jonah 2:7-10
7 When my soul fainted within me I remembered the LORD: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple.
8 They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy.
9 But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD.
10 And the LORD spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land.
However, Jonah still was not pleased when God spared Nineveh (Jonah 4:1).
In Genesis 37:18, Joseph's brothers devised a plan to kill Joseph; however, Reuben suggested they throw Joseph into a pit rather than kill him (Genesis 37:21-22). Then Reuben left and his brothers sold Joseph to the Ishmaelites. Judah was the one who suggested they sell Joseph ... perhaps because Reuben had suggested that they not kill Joseph.
If they had not sold Joseph, Reuben would have returned to fetch Joseph out of the pit:
Genesis 37:22 Reuben said unto them, Shed no blood, but cast him into this pit that is in the wilderness, and lay no hand upon him; that he might rid him out of their hands, to deliver him to his father again
And Reuben did come back later to get Joseph but Joseph was gone:
Genesis 37:29 Reuben returned unto the pit; and, behold, Joseph was not in the pit; and he rent his clothes"
It is clear from Psalm 105 that God "called for a famine upon the land". When Joseph interpreted pharaoh's dream, pharaoh set Joseph over his house (Genesis 41:40) and Egypt benefitted mightily under Joseph's stewardship.
Who knows? Maybe God had a plan for all that wealth brought into Egypt through the stewardship of Joseph ... when the children of Israel left Egypt, they did not leave empty-handed ... they brought much wealth from Egypt with them.
Well ... Joseph's brothers sold Joseph into slavery ... but according to Joseph, God worked everything for good ... all to the glory of God.
Genesis 45:5-8
5 Now therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: for God did send me before you to preserve life.
6 For these two years hath the famine been in the land: and yet there are five years, in the which there shall neither be earing nor harvest.
7 And God sent me before you to preserve you a posterity in the earth, and to save your lives by a great deliverance.
8 So now it was not you that sent me hither, but God: and he hath made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt.
Joseph was an amazing believer ... imho, we could learn a lot from studying his absolute faith in God and his meekness in accepting all the wrongs he went through ... from his brothers ... from Potiphar's wife ... from the baker who forgot about him for two years. And yet, when he saw his brothers who had thrown him into the pit and then sold him as a servant, his heart was still tender toward them. Although he did make them sweat a little.
I believe Jesus willingly gave up His life. Matthew 27:52 says Jesus "yielded up the ghost". Mark 15:37 says Jesus "gave up the ghost". Luke 23:46 says "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost".
The record in John says:
John 19:28-30
28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
29 Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth.
30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
Jesus knew all that needed to be accomplished was accomplished ... He said "It is finished" ... "He bowed His head" ... He "gave up the ghost".
The Jews held a mockery of a trial and handed Jesus over to the Romans. Both Jews and gentiles were involved in the crucifixion so neither Jew nor gentile can point fingers at each other on that point ... but the crucifixion did not kill the Lord Jesus Christ. The Lord Jesus Christ willingly laid down His life.
right ... types and foreshadows are interwoven throughout the OT writings. The Subject of Scripture is the Lord Jesus Christ.
I love the verses where Job declared "I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me" (Job 19:25-27) ... Job was a wonderful believer.
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still wrapping my head around this concept.
I know there is no way anyone ... or any thing ... could defeat God. God is the Creator of all there is. How can the created ever overcome the Creator.
Did satan actually believe he could overthrow God?
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We must consider the ways God might choose to operate.
In a manner the Lord could appear to angels before man was ever created?
In a way that over throwing God was seen as possible for evil angels?
Would be like when God appeared to evil men wishing to overthrow Jesus!
God came to the angels as the Angel of the Lord!
And, as seen in Exodus 3:2-7, we soon discover that the Angel of the Lord is called God!
maybe not you ... but I think some have tried ...
I don't know. It's interesting to consider whether the hedge around Job extended to his children, his servants, his herds. I mean, were all the people Job cared about blessed by God because Job was perfect, upright, feared God, and eschewed evil ? ... none of his children ever sinned ? ... none of his servants ever sinned ? ... satan was wholly unable to get a toehold into Job's holdings ? ... or it could be, as ZNP has pointed out, that Job's worship of God and his intercession resulted in God's hedge extending to his servants and his herds ... Job's interceding kept God's hedge around all Job had ?
We know Job sat in the gate and was well respected for his guidance and counsel in the civil matters that came up. So I'm sure Job saw his share of injustice by those who were evil. He was aware evil existed, but evil did not come hear him?
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well, we know satan tried to be like the most High so he must have thought it possible.
At this point, he knows it is impossible to overthrow God ... so he goes after that which God holds dear. satan hates mankind ... especially those who love God. I do not believe we have it in us to comprehend the absolute hatred satan holds in his heart.
I have always considered angels to be messengers/servants of God ... I have never really considered that God appeared to the angels as the Angel of the Lord. I have not studied this subject enough to be able to discuss it with any certainty.
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God proved Job's faith, by allowing evil to come upon his life and body.
Job kept his faith in God as the righteous Judge of all the earth, but he also learned that doing good does not guarrantee no hardships, tribulations, sorrows, nor evil can come upon us in this life.
Mat 5:45
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
The promises of God are to guard us from having evil in our hearts and doing evil. Not from having evil done to us.
Psa 19:13
Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.
Faith toward God is remaining upright through evil times, and not to do evil in return.
1 Pe 2:22
Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth. Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
James{5:10}
Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.
Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.
OK so it is immaterial to our dialogue here.
So what is your explanation regarding God's involvement on how the attacks on Job came about?
The question not asked?
Why was it so important for Satan to get Job to curse the Lord to His face?
Did it hold some personal significance for Satan?
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What about before the each attack occurred? How do you describe God's involvement then?
just as it's written in God's Word.
Job 1:7-8
7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
We know satan had already "considered" Job because satan was aware of the hedge God had placed around Job.
I do not describe that discussion as God telling satan to go attack Job.
How do you describe it?
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God protects and blesses mature believers in the devil's world.
Satan had not been considering Job for that reason.
Interesting to ponder...
God instigated the idea of Satan testing Job.
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord,
and Satan also came among them. The Lord said to Satan, “From where have you come?”
Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking
up and down on it.”
And the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like
him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?”
Then Satan answered the Lord and said, “Does Job fear God for no reason?
Have you not put a hedge around him and his house and all that he has, on every side?
You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. Job 1:6-10
grace and peace .........