From experience, no. But they encourage going to Mary in order to have a better shot at having your prayers answered...which is a blast against the Shed Blood of Jesus.
The Catholics and my conclusion
- Thread starter Blain
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[TABLE="width: 590"]
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[TD="colspan: 2"]The evolution (invention) of (changing) Roman Catholic traditions[/TD]
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[TD="width: 18%"]200 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Immersion of infants who are dying, but considered sinless. (Tertullian V.12)
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[TD="width: 18%"]250 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]North Africa region is first to practice infant baptism and reduced the age of baptism from minors to all newborns. This is opposed by other regions.
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[TD="width: 18%"]257 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Baptism by sprinkling for adults instead of immersion first used as an exception for those on sick beds, but it caused great dispute.
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[TD="width: 18%"]300 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Prayers for the dead
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[TD="width: 18%"]320 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Special dress code of the clergy in worship
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[TD="width: 18%"]325 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]At the general council of Nice, 325, it was proposed indeed, probably by the Western bishop Hosius, to forbid entirely the marriage of priests; but the motion met with strong opposition, and was rejected.
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[TD="width: 18%"]325 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]The date for Easter was set.
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[TD="width: 18%"]379 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Praying to Mary & Saints. (prayers of Ephraim Syrus)
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[TD="width: 18%"]385 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]In the West, the first prohibition of clerical marriage, which laid claim to universal ecclesiastical authority, proceeded in 385 from the Roman church in the form of a decretal letter of the bishop Siricius to Himerius, bishop of Tarragona in Spain.
*** *** *** [/TD]
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[TD="width: 18%"]389 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Mariolatry begins with Gregory Nazianzen, who mentions in a eulogy, how Justina had besought the virgin Mary to protect her virginity.
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[TD="width: 18%"]400 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Impossibility of apostasy or once saved always saved, (Augustine XII.9)
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[TD="width: 18%"]416 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Infant baptism by immersion commanded of all infants (Council Of Mela, Austin was the principal director)
*** *** *** [/TD]
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[TD="width: 18%"]430 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Exhalation of Virgin Mary: "Mother of God" first applied by the Council of Ephesus
*** *** *** [/TD]
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[TD="width: 18%"]502 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Special dress code of the Clergy all the time.
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[TD="width: 18%"]500 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]The "Habit" of Nuns (Black gowns with white tunics)
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[TD="width: 18%"]519 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Lent
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[TD="width: 18%"]526 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Extreme Unction
*** *** *** [/TD]
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[TD="width: 18%"]593 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]The Doctrine of Purgatory popularized from the Apocrypha by Gregory the Great
*** *** *** [/TD]
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[TD="width: 18%"]600 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]First use of Latin in worship (Gregory I)
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[TD="colspan: 2"]Beginning of the Orthodox/Roman Catholic church as we know it today in its present organization.
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[TD="width: 18%"]607 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]
*** *** *** [/TD]
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[TD="width: 18%"]608 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Pope Boniface IV. turns the Pantheon in Rome into a temple of Mary ad martyres: the pagan Olympus into a Christian heaven of gods.
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[TD="width: 18%"]670 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Instrumental music: first organ by Pope Vitalian
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[TD="width: 18%"]709 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Kissing of Pope Constantine's feet
*** *** *** [/TD]
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[TD="width: 18%"]753 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Baptism by sprinkling for those on sick beds officially accepted.
*** *** *** [/TD]
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[TD="width: 18%"]787 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Worship of icons and statue approved (2nd council of Nicea)
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[TD="width: 18%"]787 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Rome (Latin) and Constantinople (Greek) part ways and begin the drift towards complete split, resulting in two denominations emerging in 1054 AD.
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[TD="width: 18%"]965 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Baptism of bells instituted by Pope John XIII
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[TD="width: 18%"]850 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Burning of Holy Candles
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[TD="width: 18%"]995 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Canonization of dead saints, first by Pope John XV
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[TD="width: 18%"]998 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Good Friday: fish only and the eating-red meat forbidden
*** *** *** [/TD]
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[TD="width: 18%"]1009 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Holy water
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[TD="width: 18%"]1022 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Penance
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[TD="width: 18%"]1054 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Roman Catholic church breaks away from the Orthodox church
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[TD="width: 18%"]1054 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Roman Catholics officially embrace instrumental music, Orthodox reject instrumental music down to the present time.
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[TD="width: 18%"]1079 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Celibacy enforced for priests, bishops, presbyters (Pope Gregory VII)
*** *** *** [/TD]
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[TD="width: 18%"]1090 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Rosary beads: invented by Peter the Hermit
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[TD="width: 18%"]1095 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Instrumental music
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[TD="width: 18%"]1190 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Sale of Indulgences or "tickets to sin" (punishment of sin removed)
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[TD="width: 18%"]1215 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Transubstantiation by Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council
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[TD="width: 18%"]1215 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Auricular Confession of sins to priests instituted by Pope Innocent III, (Lateran Council)
*** *** *** [/TD]
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[TD="width: 18%"]1215 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Mass a Sacrifice of Christ
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[TD="width: 18%"]1217 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Adoration and Elevation of Host: ie. communion bread (Pope Honrius III)
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[TD="width: 18%"]1230 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Ringing bells at Mass
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[TD="width: 18%"]1251 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]The Scapular, the brown cloak worn by monks invented by Simon Stock
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[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1268 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Priestly power of absolution
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[TD="width: 18%"]1311 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Baptism by sprinkling accepted as the universal standard instead of immersion for all, not just the sick. (Council of Ravenna)
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[TD="width: 18%"]1414 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Laity no longer offered Lord's cup at communion (Council of Constance)
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[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1439 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Purgatory a dogma by the Council of Florence (see 593 AD)
*** *** *** [/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1439 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Doctrine of Seven Sacraments affirmed
*** *** *** [/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1480 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]The Inquisition (of Spain)
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[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1495 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Papal control of marriage rights
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[TD="width: 18%"]1534 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Order of Jesuits founded by Loyola
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[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1545 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Man-made tradition of church made equal to Bible (Council of Trent)
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[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1545 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Apocryphal books canonized (Council of Trent)
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[TD="width: 18%"]1546 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Justification by human works of merit
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[TD="width: 18%"]1546 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Mass universally said in Latin (see 600 AD)
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[TD="width: 18%"]1547 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Confirmation
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[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1560 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Personal opinions of Pope Pius IV imposed as the official creed
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[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1864 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Syllabus Errorum [Syllabus of Errors] proclaimed that "Catholic countries" could not tolerate other religions, (no freedom of religion), conscience, separation of church and State condemned, asserted the Pope's temporal authority over all civil rulers (Ratified by Pope Pius IX and Vatican Council) condemned
*** *** *** [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1870 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Infallibility of Pope (Vatican council)
*** *** *** [/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1908 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]All Catholics should be christened into the church
*** *** *** [/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1930 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Public Schools condemned by Pope Pius XII (see 1864 AD)
*** *** *** *** [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1950 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Sinners prayer, invented by Billy Sunday and made popular by Billy Graham. (Some Catholics now use this)
*** *** *** [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1950 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Assumption of the body of the Virgin Mary into heaven shortly after her death. (Pope Pius XII)
*** *** ***[/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1954 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Immaculate conception of Mary proclaimed by Pope Pius XII
*** *** *** [/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1996 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Catholics can believe in Evolution (Pope John Paul II)
*** *** *** *** [/TD]
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[/TABLE]
Sola Scriptura a man made Tradition? Invented by Luther?
How many times did Jesus say, "It is written?" or "Because of your traditions you have made void the Word of God"?
2 Timothy 3:16-17 (KJV)
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. ...it is sufficient.
How many times did Jesus say, "It is written?" or "Because of your traditions you have made void the Word of God"?
2 Timothy 3:16-17 (KJV)
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. ...it is sufficient.
It is impossible for the Church to create a doctrine.
THEPROTESTANT REFORMERS ON MARY
When Fundamentalists study the writings of the Reformers on Mary, the Mother of Jesus, they will find that the Reformers accepted almost every major Marian doctrine and considered these doctrines to be both scriptural and fundamental to the historic Christian Faith.
Throughout his life Luther maintained without change the historic Christian affirmation that Mary was the Mother of God:
"Sheis rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God ... It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God.
MartinLuther, Weimar edition of Martin Luther's Works,English translation edited by J. Pelikan [Concordia: St. Louis],volume 24, 107.
PerpetualVirginity: Againthroughout his life Luther held that Mary's perpetual virginity wasan article of faith for all Christians - and interpreted Galatians4:4 to mean that Christ was "born of a woman" alone.
"Itis an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin."
Martin Luther, op. cit., Volume 11, 319-320.
TheImmaculate Conception
Yet again the Immaculate Conception was a doctrine Luther defended to his death (as confirmed by Lutheran scholars like Arthur Piepkorn). Like Augustine, Luther saw an unbreakable link between Mary's divine maternity, perpetual virginity and Immaculate Conception.Although his formulation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was not clear-cut, he held that her soul was devoid of sin from the beginning:
"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soulwas being infused, shewould at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin..."
Martin Luther, Weimar edition of Martin Luther's Works,English translation edited by J. Pelikan [Concordia: St.Louis],Volume 4, 694.
Assumption: Although he did not make it an article of faith, Luther said of the doctrine of the Assumption:
"There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know."
Martin Luther, Weimar edition of Martin Luther's Works(Translation by William J. Cole) 10, p. 268.
Honorto Mary
Despite his unremitting criticism of the traditional doctrines of Marian mediation and intercession, to the end Luther continued to proclaim that Mary should be honored. He made it a point to preach on her feast days.
"The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart."
Martin Luther, Weimar edition of Martin Luther's Works (Translation by William J. Cole) 10, III, p.313.
"IsChrist only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honored? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent's head. Hearus. For your Son denies you nothing."Luther made this statement in his last sermon at Wittenberg in January 1546.
MartinLuther, Weimar edition of MartinLuther's Works,English translation edited by J. Pelikan [Concordia: St. Louis],Volume 51, 128-129.
JohnCalvin:
It has been said that John Calvin belonged to the second generation of the Reformers and certainly his theology of double predestination governed his views on Marian and all other Christian doctrine .
Although Calvin was not as profuse in his praise of Mary as Martin Luther he did not deny her perpetual virginity. The term he used most commonly in referring to Mary was "Holy Virgin".
"Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God."
John Calvin, Calvini Opera[Braunshweig-Berlin, 1863-1900], Volume 45, 35.
"Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons,because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ."Calvin translated "brothers" in this context to mean cousins or relatives.
Bernard Leeming, "Protestants and Our Lady", Marian Library Studies,January 1967, p.9.
"It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor." John Calvin,CalviniOpera[Braunshweig-Berlin, 1863-1900], Volume 45, 348.
"To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son."
JohnCalvin, AHarmony of Matthew, Mark and Luke(St. Andrew's Press, Edinburgh, 1972), p.32.
UlrichZwingli:"It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God."11
"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as apure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin."Zwingli used Exodus4:22 to defend the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity.
UlrichZwingli, ZwingliOpera, Corpus Reformatorum,Volume 1, 424.
UlrichZwingli : "I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the everchaste, immaculate Virgin Mary."
E. Stakemeier, DeMariologia et Oecumenismo,K. Balic, ed., (Rome, 1962), 456.
UlrichZwingli "Christ ... was born of a most undefiled Virgin." Ibid.
UlrichZwingli "It was fitting that such a holy Son should have aholy Mother."Ibid.
UlrichZwingli "The more the honor and love of Christ increases amongmen, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow."
Ulrich Zwingli, ZwingliOpera, Corpus Reformatorum,Volume 1, 427-428.
We mightwonder why the Marian affirmations of the Reformers did not survivein the teaching of their heirs - particularly the Fundamentalists.This break with the past did not come through any new discovery orrevelation.
TheReformers themselves (see above) took a benign even positive view ofMarian doctrine - although they did reject Marian mediation becauseof their rejection of all human mediation.
Moreover,while there were some excesses in popular Marian piety, Mariandoctrine as taught in the pre-Reformation era drew its inspirationfrom the witness of Scripture and was rooted in Christology. The realreason for the break with the past must be attributed to theiconoclastic passion of the followers of the Reformation and theconsequences of some Reformation principles.
Evenmore influential in the break with Mary was the influence of theEnlightenment Era, which essentially questioned or denied themysteries of faith.
Unfortunatelythe Marian teachings and preachings of the Reformers have been"covered up" by their most zealous followers - withdamaging theological and practical consequences.
This"cover-up" can be detected even in ‘Chosen by God: Maryin Evangelical Perspective, an Evangelical critique of Mariology’.One of the contributors admits that "Most remarkable to modernProtestants is the Reformers' almost universal acceptance of Mary's continuing virginity, and their widespread reluctance to declare Mary a sinner".
Hethen asks if it is "a favourable providence" that kept these Marian teachings of the Reformers from being "transmitted to the Protestant churches"!
David F.Wright, ed., Chosenby God: Mary in Evangelical Perspective(London: Marshall Pickering, 1989), 180
What is interpreted as "Providence" by a Marian critic may legitimately be interpreted as a force of a very different kind by a Christian who has recognized the role of Mary in God’s plan.
Amazing, eh Mec?
simply because the Reformers were immersed in the RC growing up. It takes time unlearning false ways just as we are unlearning the false ways of the pagan religions we grew up in.
Your church has done it, you defend it, and then say it does not exist? Hmmm.
We don't follow Luther.
Yes. Look it up. Some claim the Early Church Fathers were sola scripturists but with shoddy evidence.
IT IS WRITTEN (Matthew 4:4) is not the smoking gun you think it is. IT IS WRITTEN is a direct citation of Deuteronomy 8:3, not the whole Bible and certainly not the NT that did not exist when Jesus quoted it. "...not in bread alone doth man live, but in every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God." You seem to think that every word that proceeds from the mouth of God has to be in writing. Jesus does not say that and neither does Moses. "Word" does not absolutely mean a written word. Bibles do not fall out of the mouth of God.
Nowhere in the whole bible is "Word of God" confined to the written word alone. Put it in any bible search engine and see if you can find one. God is not limited to ink and paper.
Try real hard to comprehend this: The Bible is the written word of God, but not the sole means of transmitting revelation. For example, somebody had to assemble the right books. The Bible is a fruit of the Catholic Church that you despise. So she is right about the NT but wrong on everything else??? or "Because of your traditions you have made void the Word of God"?
The authority of Scripture is a Catholic Tradition. If that were not the case, you would have no Bible.
Whose traditions, Crossnote? And what were they?
A better shot at having prayers answered. Ain't that a pip.
If only they'd embrace 1 Timothy 2.5
I have freedom in Christ. So, Luther is protestant. Am I supposed to make something of that? You sure have. He was not the first, nor the last, and the church underwent massive changes long before him. I do not place my trust in him, nor do I have to. You on the other hand are obliged to accept what the pope tells you. You follow the pope, and not the Word of God. You hold the Word of God in contempt when your pope assumes authority to defy it.
Count Jesus in that number. Jesus only used the word of God to refute the tempter when He was faced by the offer to sin.
Red herring total fabrication.
2 Tim 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
2 Tim 4:1 ¶ I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
The Jew had half the bible ever before there was a Roman Catholic church. Even in this both Judaism and Romanism have erred in their claims about the bible. Rome added books that contradict the OT and ignores all the rest.
Same old faulty apologetics based on Rome's own faulty authors and wholly without merit.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
The authority of Scripture was first practiced by the Jews. Catholics are Johnny Come Latelys.
Here, here is a good example of Sola Scriptura which submitted the Apostles message to Scripture
Acts 17:10-11 KJVS
[10] And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. [11] These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
The bible holds the FINAL AUTHORITY OVER ALL OTHER REVELATION.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
funny how you ignore pauls words to timothy. and try to skirt it by posting some OT passage..
It is written was said by jesus and the apostles many times. As jesus said, if we listened to moses we would see him. (he said nothing about listening to the church)
Your not going to convince us the rome church is the one church by bashing us with luther. and bashing the word of God..
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Kind of hard to hold bible as final authority when your doctrines (like the jewish doctrines in Jesus day- are not supported by scripture. you need external books and writings and words of men.
Hebrews 1:1-2 KJVS
[1] God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, [2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
What? Not the Pope or the Church?
[1] God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, [2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
What? Not the Pope or the Church?
The new testament is the fruit of the early church, the apostles. I have never read they where RCC, and if they read this idea they would laugh because it is so stupid a claim.
It is true that any church tradition has expanded on ideas of theology and ceremony, but it does not make it right. To a large degree it is probably wrong, because very often it is focused on defining things that can only be discovered walking with Jesus.
The Jews held Tradition to be sacred, which it was. Sola scriptura could not, and did not, exist in ancient Judaism, and they had no closed canon until the 1st century.
Sorry you feel that way. Catholicism is a fulfillment of Judaism, just ask any Hebrew Catholic.Association of Hebrew Catholics
Acts 17:11-12 - here we see the verse "they searched the Scriptures." This refers to the Bereans who used the Old Testament to confirm the oral teachings about the Messiah. The verses do not say the Bereans searched the Scriptures alone (which is what Protestants are attempting to prove when quoting this passage). Moreover, the Bereans accepted the oral teaching from Paul as God's word before searching the Scriptures, which disproves the Berean's use of sola Scriptura.
Acts 17:11-12 - Also, the Bereans, being more "noble" or "fair minded," meant that they were more reasonable and less violent than the Thessalonians in Acts. 17:5-9. Their greater fairmindedness was not because of their use of Scripture, which Paul directed his listeners to do as was his custom (Acts 17:3).
Because I didn't have time. Post the verses Matthew 4:4 and Deuteronomy 8:3 and tell everyone in here that Jesus isn't quoting the OT. I dare ya
No, "It is written" was said only by Jesus. It's not me that denies Who Jesus was quoting, and it's not me that refuses to check context. "It is written" may support inspiration of Deuteronomy, but that is not the issue. "It is written" does not prove "it is bible alone". There was no NT at the time Jesus said this, So he couldn't have been referring to a bible that did not yet exist as we know it.
This has nothing to do with sola scriptura, and yes, Jesus clearly and explicitly talks about listening to the Church.
Matthew 15 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.[i] 19 Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.”
Your not going to convince us the rome church is the one church by bashing us with luther. and bashing the word of God.. [/QUOTE]
Who is Jesus giving the authority to "let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector." Individual bible readers or to Peter, representing the Church? How many times does Jesus say "YOU"?
I am not bashing you with Luther, I gave detailed references from his own writings. Martin Luther invented sola scriptura. Look it up. Many claim they do not follow Martin Luther but they accept sola scriptura which makes no sense. If I have bashed the written Word of God, use the quote feature.
2 Tim 3:
[14] But as for you, continue in what you have learned (TRADITION) and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it (MAGISTERIUM)
[15] and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings (SCRIPTURE) which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
[16] All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
[17] that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
Sola scripturists ignore verse 14 and 15 because it demolishes their position.
The Bible on St. Paul's list comes in third, not first. He actually gives here the traditional Catholic teaching on the three sources of sound teaching.
In verse 15 he goes into an excursus on the Bible. This brief excursus emphasizes the value of the Bible and recommends a fourfold method of exegesis. This verse was used as a proof text for the Quadriga which was the standard Catholic approach to the Bible. The Quadriga method used the following four categories:
Literal/Literary (teaching) - the text as it is written
Analogical (reproof) - matters of faith
Anagogical (correction) - matters of hope/prophecy
Moral (training in righteousness) - matters of charity
The so called reformers rejected all this and instead adopted a more literal approach to biblical exegesis, and Martin Luther was rejected by his contemporaries for ignoring 2 Timothy 3:16.
OK, so who is the "man of God"? The ordained or any private individual believer?
The Apostles reading from the New Testament is a stupid claim. The Bible was compiled by Catholic bishops, successors to the Apostles. Here is a timeline chart of the canon of the New Testament, all the data on the chart is from Protestant sources:
Deeny's Simple Joys: The History of the New Testament Canon Chart
You can't assume Catholics do not have an intimate personal relationship with Jesus. In fact, we ingest Him like he told us to, and I don't think you can get more intimate than that. But don't square up the worst Catholics with the best Protestants. That isn't fair.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
He we can agree on something.
You are the modern day form of Judaism.
1. You reject scripture as sole authorltiy
2. You make man made books and writings and call them equal with Gods word.
3. You take works, and make them essential for salvation.
4. You think yourself more righteus than you really are
5. You take traditions and religious ceremony (you call them sacraments) and make them ways to salvation.
You make the same mistakes they did, they were destroyed in 70 AD. Your church will be destroyed soon.
Because I didn't have time. Post the verses Matthew 4:4 and Deuteronomy 8:3 and tell everyone in here that Jesus isn't quoting the OT. I dare ya
well of course he is, He is not quoting jewish leaders or jewish books, he quotes scripture. He was a sola scripturist
lol. Yes, Jesus was quoting scripture. You state he was not a sola scripturist, Yet you claim he quotes scripture..
He always quoted scripture. or he wrote new scripture. He is God. He is allowed to write new scripture. In fact, he kept writing it until revelation was penned. Then he stopped speaking, because he said all we need to hear.