The Church is complicated sometimes

[Boughtwithaprice]

Hi,

The church is such an important fellowship of believers and our mission is filled with meaning and purpose. My experience with the church have brought light into my life and changed my perspectives on all things, it taught me that we do not live for ourselves but for Jesus, and therefore serves one another. We are to love each other, and the world will know who Jesus is by our example. However, it is complicated when the church through its leadership and management falls through and conflicts tears down the fellowship. I am sure this has happened many times and many places throughout history, but it is still true that Jesus builds His church. Are there anyone with the experience of seeing their local church getting caught up in conflict and perishing, yet found themselves with a renewed faith in the church and experiencing it as Jesus intended? Feels strange to write this rationally, but I think I am blinded by disappointment and lack /being afraid of trusting in people. How do we get past this?

The modern church is not a reflection of scripture. It has been redefined and redesigned as a business and doctrine-based institution. It is run by academic prowess and programs, not the Spirit of God, regardless of what they say.

There is no discerning of spirits in our modern churches, leaving sincere believers to intermingle with hypocrites, deceivers, and superficial/immature believers due to the overwhelming focus on "numbers."

My personal experiences led me to a closer relationship with our Lord, after giving up the worldliness of churches.

Hang in there. Sometimes, all you have is God... That's a good thing, though it can separate you from the status quo.

 

[Gideon300]

Hi Gideon300,
Thank you for sharing your reflections and story. I understand and agree that in our world today there is a mix of shallowness within our churches, and our roots and maturity takes time. Where there is shallowness, either in a specific person, a local church or even community I hope that surrounding people with solid bible based faith will reach in with love, grace and truth to build / teach about the necessary deeper faith.

I have been, and still is, in a place where my family and I consider leaving our current church. I am over the angry period after a very thorough process of forgiveness and I look to the future once again, however I struggle with the feeling of “quitting” and “giving up” in hard times and I realize that my fear of being let down by people again is not limited to people in my specific church, rather everyone. I find myself looking for the genuine Jesus followers who 1) carry the Holy Spirit and are not too busy to stop and help the wounded and 2) passionately seeks to live a surrendered life, sadly they are not easily observed.

In your story you made a leap of faith into a new community of believers and this helped you a lot, I am glad to hear this and brings hope. My mind and heart will be open to new paths.

Even the new group I joined had problems. However, they were problems of growing in Christ, not the typical jealousy, doctrinal arguments, wounded pride and division that wracks the denominational scene.

There needs to be a sorting out at times. Jesus said some things that offended His Jewish followers (John 6:22 onward). He did not try to turn them back. He simply asked the rest of the disciples, how about you? Peter had the right answer. It was along the lines of we do not understand it all, but we know that you have the words of eternal life. Where else can we go?

The structures of modern Christianity are part of the problem. Who can afford to offend when the wages and rent have to be paid? If the tithes are not coming in, bills don't get paid. Our group has no paid staff and we have very low expenses. I'm retired, so I need no other income. When we were running a bible school, God provided the money for the rent and all the other expenses. We asked no one for financial support.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

The evangelist said that it was the easiest way to get 300 unbelievers in one place.

lol. I used to ask Christian friends this question to make a point: "What's the most deserted place on earth on Sundays at 1PM". Answer: church

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

This whole situation reminds me of 1 Samuel 8:5 when the children of Israel told Samuel that they wanted a king to rule over them. Both Samuel and God were grieved because it was a rejection of God ruling over them.

It's the same thing today. Most Christians want a leader(s) ruling over them to tell them what to do so they don't have to do the hard work of ruling themselves in the spirit of God. But that comes with a price as described in 1 Samuel 8:11-18.

Of course we need leaders, but we need judges, not pastor-kings. The whole system is off course and out of balance

 

[GWH]

Hi,

The church is such an important fellowship of believers and our mission is filled with meaning and purpose. My experience with the church have brought light into my life and changed my perspectives on all things, it taught me that we do not live for ourselves but for Jesus, and therefore serves one another. We are to love each other, and the world will know who Jesus is by our example. However, it is complicated when the church through its leadership and management falls through and conflicts tears down the fellowship. I am sure this has happened many times and many places throughout history, but it is still true that Jesus builds His church. Are there anyone with the experience of seeing their local church getting caught up in conflict and perishing, yet found themselves with a renewed faith in the church and experiencing it as Jesus intended? Feels strange to write this rationally, but I think I am blinded by disappointment and lack /being afraid of trusting in people. How do we get past this?

I share your concern, and I am trying to be part of the solution in our CC church. My hypothesis is that the Gospel/kerygma/GRFS should be every Christian’s creed, and only belief in this crucial truth should be viewed as a test for orthodoxy or heresy. As Paul wrote in Romans 10:9, “If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” Conversely, judgments concerning a person’s spiritual orientation or ultimate destiny should not be made on the basis of didachaic or secondary doctrines. (If any judgment is made, it should begin with a self-examination per MT 7:1&5, 2CR 13:5-8).

I think a major reason many Christians throughout history have not manifested the love and unity of God’s Spirit (EPH 4:3) as well as they should is because of failure to realize this truth. If they did, it would free them to speak honestly and fellowship without becoming unduly upset about relatively minor issues. They would receive God’s blessing as peacemakers, who draw inclusive circles around people based on the kerygma rather than denominational lines between them due to didachaic differences. Jesus prayed for spiritual unity (cf. JN 17:20-23, “May they be one…”).

The normative way of stating the kerygma/GRFS in the NT is “Accept Christ Jesus as Lord” (as in 2CR 4:5 & CL 2:6). The main points of Christian orthodoxy implicit in this statement can be explained or elaborated as follows:

1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (DT 6:4, JN 3:16, 2THS 1:6), who is both able (2TM 1:12) and willing (1TM 2:3-4) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (RM 3:23, 2TM 3:2-4, CL 3:5), miserable (GL 5:19-21), and hopeless (EPH 2:12) when they reject God’s salvation or DOD (JN 3:18).
3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ or the way (means of providing salvation) that God has chosen (JN 3:16, ACTS 16:30-31, PHP 2:9-11), although pre-NT truthseekers could/can learn a proto-gospel via general revelation combined with conscience.
4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (LK 2:11, JN 14:6, ACTS 16:31), which means trying to obey His commandment to love one another (MT 22:37-40, JN 13:35, RM 13:9)—forever (MT 10:22, PS 113:2).
5. Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (RV 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning God’s Word everyone cooperates fully with His will (RM 8:6-17, GL 6:7-9, EPH 1:13-14, HB 10:36, 12:1, JM 1:2-4).

 

[Melach]

I've been through this mill. What became clear was that not all that calls itself church is genuine; not all who claim to be Christians are indeed born again. Surveys suggest that something like 4% of churchgoers are in fact born again. Experience causes me to agree with surveys. This seems appalling and it is.

One pastor I knew had this to say: There are three kinds of people who go to church. They are believers, unbelievers and make believers. Sadly, I have to agree.

His denomination, Pentecostal, had an-on staff evangelist. The pastor asked him why he preached in churches (which he did). The evangelist said that it was the easiest way to get 300 unbelievers in one place. Now a lot of these unbelievers were tongue talking hand waving enthusiasts. Yet they were not born again.

The answer? We are seeing it happen. People are leaving the church in droves. Children no longer attend because their parents did. Since they have no foundation, the world education system can easily destroy what passes for faith. This is an indictment on the church, make believing parents and the shallowness of preaching. The good news is that at least some find that the world offers them nothing but lies and deception and they turn to Jesus.

I was much disappointed in my church, and especially in myself. I quit everything (Bible study and youth group leader) and searched for somewhere that I could get answers. Eventually, I listened to the Lord instead of my raging feelings and He led me to someone who could help. It was a small fellowship, nothing like I was used to. It was a wonderful blessing and I owe the pastor my life in many ways. He went to be with the Lord in 2011. What I learned through him has kept me stable even in difficult times. God will lead you if you seek Him.

you got it. small fellowships are the thing in these times. i almost prefer this situation that not everyone attends church. back in the days when religion was something everyone was forced to participate in, there was a lot of keeping up of appearances, this is still common in sub-saharan africa but in the west people are getting more open about their lack of faith. which is great that you dont have to sit there with some fakers

 

[Eli1]

I share your concern, and I am trying to be part of the solution in our CC church. My hypothesis is that the Gospel/kerygma/GRFS should be every Christian’s creed.

Major I don’t know if you realize this but GRFS is not GRFS but your interpretation of GRFS.

Don’t worry about these small details and as always I am in 50% agreement with you on a lot of things.

 

[GWH]

Major I don’t know if you realize this but GRFS is not GRFS but your interpretation of GRFS.

Don’t worry about these small details and as always I am in 50% agreement with you on a lot of things.

Yes, and I realize that everything said on CC is interpretation/opinion. That is why I say up front that my reason for posting on CC is simply to share my fallible faith with others, hoping they will find what I have learned helpful for understanding ultimate truth, and I am grateful to those on CC and throughout my life who have helped shape my beliefs/interpretations.

 

[GregMancini]

Thank you for sharing a part of your story. I have been through similar process; firstly accepting that I cannot influence or change what has happened, secondly forgiving a whole lot of people to release myself and them into further service and thirdly moving on into any new paths that God have planned. My faith in Jesus is there and I do believe He is truly the way, truth and life. What I really find difficult at the moment is the church family. Even though I am aware of our corrupt hearts, I struggle to trust people again, as if “fear of being let down” hinders me to take part in the fellowship, commit myself and serve passionately. I guess even stronger roots in Jesus’ teachings will build the foundation needed to both “survive” and “conquer” this world, and my heart longs for this, at the same time I don’t want to do this alone..

Yes, press into Jesus and walk closely in His forgiveness as He has forgiven us of so much on the cross. He became sin for us that we wouldn't have to pay the price of God's righteous judgment. You are not alone in this fight and I am here to fully support you in your struggles know this.

 

[Gideon300]

I share your concern, and I am trying to be part of the solution in our CC church. My hypothesis is that the Gospel/kerygma/GRFS should be every Christian’s creed, and only belief in this crucial truth should be viewed as a test for orthodoxy or heresy. As Paul wrote in Romans 10:9, “If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” Conversely, judgments concerning a person’s spiritual orientation or ultimate destiny should not be made on the basis of didachaic or secondary doctrines. (If any judgment is made, it should begin with a self-examination per MT 7:1&5, 2CR 13:5-8).

I think a major reason many Christians throughout history have not manifested the love and unity of God’s Spirit (EPH 4:3) as well as they should is because of failure to realize this truth. If they did, it would free them to speak honestly and fellowship without becoming unduly upset about relatively minor issues. They would receive God’s blessing as peacemakers, who draw inclusive circles around people based on the kerygma rather than denominational lines between them due to didachaic differences. Jesus prayed for spiritual unity (cf. JN 17:20-23, “May they be one…”).

The normative way of stating the kerygma/GRFS in the NT is “Accept Christ Jesus as Lord” (as in 2CR 4:5 & CL 2:6). The main points of Christian orthodoxy implicit in this statement can be explained or elaborated as follows:

1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (DT 6:4, JN 3:16, 2THS 1:6), who is both able (2TM 1:12) and willing (1TM 2:3-4) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (RM 3:23, 2TM 3:2-4, CL 3:5), miserable (GL 5:19-21), and hopeless (EPH 2:12) when they reject God’s salvation or DOD (JN 3:18).
3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ or the way (means of providing salvation) that God has chosen (JN 3:16, ACTS 16:30-31, PHP 2:9-11), although pre-NT truthseekers could/can learn a proto-gospel via general revelation combined with conscience.
4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (LK 2:11, JN 14:6, ACTS 16:31), which means trying to obey His commandment to love one another (MT 22:37-40, JN 13:35, RM 13:9)—forever (MT 10:22, PS 113:2).
5. Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (RV 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning God’s Word everyone cooperates fully with His will (RM 8:6-17, GL 6:7-9, EPH 1:13-14, HB 10:36, 12:1, JM 1:2-4).

Sounds OK apart from point 5. According to Ephesians 2:6, believers are already seated with Christ in heavenly places. Heaven is our home, not our destination.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Heaven is our home, not our destination.

That's a nice way to put it