The Complacent christian world.

[livingbygrace]

Do you believe in the local assembly, that the Lord Jesus Christ has prepared for believers, is given to believers to hear the word of God preached and to be taught doctrine, to have fellowship and unity with members of Christ's body, so they can be exercised in their priesthood corporately, to train up disciples to go into the world and preach the gospel of Christ, to seek and win the lost and to do the work that God has ordained for that local assembly and to bring forth fruit unto God? And in all this they acknowledge and worship Jesus Christ as the head, they honor, obey and pray for those that God has put over them in the Lord and they are lead by the Holy Spirit in that local assembly to be a joint participate and give of their supply to be edified and built up with others as it edifies itself in the love of God, and to be faithful in that calling until the Lord comes back for the church.

OR... do you believe in being an independent individual believer that lives unto the Lord with their own understanding they get from the scriptures and through the Spirit that is not required by grace or through any instructions of the scriptures to honor the local assembly or those that God has raised up for the church to preach and teach the word and doctrine? Do you put Christ first and then your family and the local assembly last, providing you can trust that there is one available in your local area but as soon as you see something you don't like or agree with you run back and become critical of the local assembly?

We are to keep our eye upon Christ and serve Him with all our heart, soul, mind and strength, but isn't he leading us through the Spirit to gather ourselves together unto Him with other believers that He has redeemed that we might have fellowship with Christ that lives in them? Doesn't each member of Christ's body have a supply of the Spirit that we need so that we can be filled with what we might lack and so that we can comprehend the many dimensions of the love of God? In the gospels we have the disciples and many others that gathered unto Christ daily to hear the word and after the gospels, don't we have the scriptures that testify and letters that have been written to the local churches and assemblies where believers gathered together with qualified men that were sent to preach and teach in Rome, Galatia Corinth, Ephesus, Philippi, Colosse, Thessalonica, including those in homes, the Jews that were scattered abroad and those local churches that were revealed in the Revelation given to John?

Why is it that we have so many believers today that profess the Lord Jesus Christ yet have no local assembly (a living organism made up of Christ's body, flesh and bones) to gather with others as they did in the book of Acts that led to the establishment of local assemblies where ever God was adding to the church? Why have so many been critical of the local church and have decided to never be a part of one that they like to label as 'a building' or some 'organized church'. God has prepared a body for them but they will not recognize that body and do not take seriously through conviction that we are members one of another and of His body, flesh and bones. This very much puzzles me that believers think that they are in the will of God outside the local assembly, outside of what God has prepared for them and outside the dispensing of the word and doctrine of Christ that is given for worship and where the Holy Spirit is active in the corporate body and in the members of those that make up that corporate body.

Pickles, what is in your heart concerning these matters and is not the Christ that you seek to glorify living as the head of the body, does He not desire in His heart that we gather together as one body, did not He gather the disciples unto Himself and teach them as a body of believers and did He not send them out to do the same? We will not be gathered unto Him when we are taken up into heaven to be with Him? When we do not gather ourselves together in a local assembly of believers, we are not gathering ourselves unto Christ, the head, and we do not allow Jesus Christ to reveal Himself to us as the head. If Christ is not experiencially our head how can we say that we are led of His Spirit? Those that do not gather together scatter abroad. When you look at those who do not gather together unto Jesus Christ in the local assembly are they not an example of those that are scattered abroad? Could not this be considered complacency concerning the local assembly of the church and complacency toward the head of that church, CHRIST?

But meeting with other believers in your own home, as opposed to going to a church building is still worshipping God with fellow Christians, and I would say God would be just as happy with that

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

um....would those inexperienced teenagers be under your shepherding?
how would they be discipled by you (or would they?)

how would they become 'experienced', in your view?

also: exactly what does God "want"?

1. Not necessarily. However, if God were to bless me with such a priveledge, I would not only feel both honored and greatly humbled but I would also take it very seriously. Ministry of any kind, even a handful of kids, is serious business.

2. My job would be to merely point toward Jesus. The Holy Spirit does the rest.

3. By listening to the Holy Spirut.

4. That would depends on His purposes for each of our lives. "Seek and ye shall fibd. Knock and it shall be opened unto you."

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

You opened your mouth and made the statement. Now back it up and go do it. Prove all things and let's see what happens. Anybody can make statements but to back it up and actually do it and get some fruit is a whole other thing. You may have meant well, but I think that you will find that what you perceive in the heart of those teens you have described has not been tested and you would find out in a hurry when the tests come and realize the difference between unproven earnest sincerity and proven maturity (perfection).

Look at the disciples who were with the Lord Jesus Christ, for three years, under His daily teaching of the word and doctrine. They were unlearned men and had all kinds of problems with unbelief, with His doctrine, His parables, His ministry, the cross, with grace, with forgiveness and they all ended up forsaking Him and going back to their fishing boats. They had to be tested and their faith had to be tried over and over and they lived in the presence of God and some did not even know that Jesus was God manifest in the flesh as the Son of God.

Then God sends a persecute of the church, who was a Pharisee, and they have to accept him and the grace that eventually made him the chief of the apostles. They had to hear what he had to say and extend to him the right hand of fellowship, when he was responsibly for having many of the brethren killed, including the stoning of Stephen. I don't think you teens would be ready for some of this stuff that might befall them. Remember that a novice can easily fall into the condemnation of the devil and when that happens they could fall away. You have youthful lust issues and all kinds of desires they have that could be easily taken advantage of by the devil. And all of your holiness is not going to convert them into powerful dynamos.

It's not about me. It's not about them. It's about surrendering all to the Holy Spirit and letting him do the rest. Don't believe me? Just ask John Wycliffe, John Huss, George Fox, George Whitefild, John Wesley, Andrew Murray, Charles Finney, Charles Spurgeon just to name a few.....

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

When will we see, that nothing can be claimed as ones own doing.
Everything is Gods creation, His knowladge, His understanding, His truth, His grace given, faith, hope, love , all is His creation and gift to us.
God does what pleases Him.
One can study, learn, pray, do all these things.
But none of it is of value, unless all is recieved and served in Jesus, through the Holy Spirit.
Everything, is given in Jesus, through the Holy Spirit that is good and fruitful.
We can make every effort, but unless one is in Jesus, there is no fruit.
All is to the glory of God!!!

in Jesus, God bless.
pickles

you are a blessing! To God be the glory!

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

Or you may be dealing with one that has experience in these matters and has learned through that experience the many things that befall a young person in their earnest zeal for God, especially when they do not have the covering of a local assembly and a pastor-teacher that has been put through the fire. Teenagers go through all kinds of things and they have to have good parents and a good body of Spirit-filled loving believers that are mature in the love of God and have good discernment. They also must be very patient and loving in dealing with teens and be a very stable and fruitful in the things of God. These things are very necessary and even then there is no guarantees because of the foolishness bound up in the youthful heart.

Wonders if Red has ever read the biography of George Whitefield who, after giving his heart to the Lord in his teen years, the Holy Spirit birthed within him at the age of 20 a revival that would span 30 years and win hundreds of thousands of souls to Christ on both sides of the Atlantic ocean. A revival we now call the 1st Great Awakening. All we do is surrender ourselves to the Holy Spirit. He does the rest no matter how big or small it may seem.

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

This is very true. But if a well educated pastor read this quote, or someone who had striven to interpret the scriptures and believed they had gained much knowledge and understanding of them by their own efforts, rather than totally relying on the Holy Spirit for the truth therein, and if such a person believed they by their own efforts were an authority on scripture, I am sure they would be most upset by your comment, and would take great offence by it

I think you're right!

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

And afterwards I will pour out my spirit on all people
Your sons and daughters will prophesy
Your old men will dream dreams
your young men will see visions
Even on my servants both men and women
I will pour out my spirit in those days
I will show wonders in the Heavens and on the earth
blood and fire and billows of smoke
before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord

Joel 2:28-31

The Holy Spirit is the power the Christian has on this earth, and the spirit is available to all who will receive him.

We have not received the spirit of the world but the spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us

This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom, but in words taught by the spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words
The man without the spirit does not accept the things that come from the spirit of God for thery are foolishness to him and he cannot understand them for they are spiritually discerned
1 Cor 2:12-14

The world cannot accept him because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him for he lives with you and will be in you
John 14:17

But how many Christians will abandon the desire for self knowledge and self understanding and and entrust themselves to Christ and the Holy Spirit within

And how many read up on the great theologians and scholars because they believe they were mightily led of the Holy Spirit, and how many read up on them because they have great earthly intellect and reasoning?

For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight

1 Cor 3:19

God can use a sincere teenager who in their heart cries out to him and is filled with the spirit far more than he can use someone who has relied on their own intellect to understand the truth of God's word, it is no contest

Thank you. Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Red33]

But meeting with other believers in your own home, as opposed to going to a church building is still worshipping God with fellow Christians, and I would say God would be just as happy with that

You have this 'church building' phobia complex and you can't get past that for some reason. Do you also ignore what the scriptures teach and testify and give us as a pattern to follow in the local assembly? Please don't answer, just think about it and put some effort and dig into the scriptures to see if it is true. Do you ignore the effort that Paul put into the letters he wrote under the inspiration of the Spirit concerning the matters and of doctrine of all the churches?

 

[livingbygrace]

Mentioning teenagers
At 17 Charles Spurgeon was the minster of a small Baptist church

At 19 Spurgeon became the minister of London's famed New Park St chapel Southwark

This was the largest Baptist congregation in London, though it's numbers had dwindled

Within a few months of his arrival his ability as a preacher made him famous

The following year his sermons were published in printed form and were sold in high numbers

The congregation quickly outgrew two buildings and by the time he was 22 he was the most popular preacher in England preaching to audiences of up to 10,000 people

By the time of his death he had preached 3,600 sermons and written 49 volumes of commentaries

 

[Red33]

Wonders if Red has ever read the biography of George Whitefield who, after giving his heart to the Lord in his teen years, the Holy Spirit birthed within him at the age of 20 a revival that would span 30 years and win hundreds of thousands of souls to Christ on both sides of the Atlantic ocean. A revival we now call the 1st Great Awakening. All we do is surrender ourselves to the Holy Spirit. He does the rest no matter how big or small it may seem.

You have a group of 'George Whitefield' teenagers, go gather them together and train them up in the ways of the Lord and teach them doctrine and send them out and/or go with them. You seem to be zealous of this. We already have the commission to go into all the world, so you do not have to wait for the Spirit to tell you to go because Christ has already, unless you think that Christ did not have the Spirit or that His words were not inspired. Did the Spirit tell you to say this in your own words...

'I would rather have a handful of inexperienced teenagers who cry out to God earnestly seeking his presence and His will concerning a matter than a group of well educated pastors who on;y think and act according to their interpretation of the scriptures.'

... if the Spirit did, perhaps you should exercise faith and obey what the Spirit is leading you to do. Why be complacent and disobedient about it. Don't those teens need your leadership and experience so that they can grow up and be men and women of God and be filled with the Spirit?

 

[livingbygrace]

You have this 'church building' phobia complex and you can't get past that for some reason. Do you also ignore what the scriptures teach and testify and give us as a pattern to follow in the local assembly? Please don't answer, just think about it and put some effort and dig into the scriptures to see if it is true. Do you ignore the effort that Paul put into the letters he wrote under the inspiration of the Spirit concerning the matters and of doctrine of all the churches?

What is a true Church?

People who meet in a building?

Or believers who meet anywhere to worship God?

It may be good to consider why people in record numbers are deserting the mainline churches in the US and the UK and starting up house groups in their own homes

I recognise that for you a church building is where you believe you should be, please accept what I believe is best for me

 

[Red33]

LBG and FOTA,

You both have tried to convince us of the importance of seeking the Holy Spirit to have power, where is your power and what is the power of the Holy Spirit doing in your lives? Do you have the fruit of that power in your own lives that you can offer up to the glory of God?

Again, you can answer these things in your own heart and be truthful before the God and not lie to the Holy Spirit. Have you given up everything and counted all things but dung to win Christ? Have you become all things to all people that you might win some? Are you so crucified with Christ that you can say, 'For me to live is Christ and to die is gain'? Can you say that death worketh in me so that life may work in others? Have you taken seriously the Lord Jesus Christ when he said that he came to divide the family with the sword of the word ands Spirit (Eph 6:17, Heb 4:12) and in (Lk 12:49-53)...

49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I , if it be already kindled? 50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with ; and how am I straitenedhttp://christianchat.com/#fn-descriptionAnchor-d till it be accomplished ! 51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: 52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided , three against two, and two against three. 53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

Is this the fire that you want to see these teenagers baptized with? Is this what you are going to teach these teens that want this fire and what it might do in causing division in their home and family? I have seen a man of God lay His life down for his (6) kids and obey the call of God for (49) years and in the end, because of the cross that was taken up and the word that was preached, all his kids forsook him, their own father and treated him like he never loved him. Are you going to teach others that this kind of fire consumes the flesh through a cross?

 

[Red33]

What is a true Church?

People who meet in a building?

Or believers who meet anywhere to worship God?

It may be good to consider why people in record numbers are deserting the mainline churches in the US and the UK and starting up house groups in their own homes

I recognise that for you a church building is where you believe you should be, please accept what I believe is best for me

To even relate the church, God's building, to a structure made of wood, stone, brick and morter, is a statement of ignorance and to accuse others of thinking that way is contemptuous. Only someone who has no mental faulties to articulate truth with objectivity would suggest such a thing and attribute it to others.

 

[livingbygrace]

To even relate the church, God's building, to a structure made of wood, stone, brick and morter, is a statement of ignorance and to accuse others of thinking that way is contemptuous. Only someone who has no mental faulties to articulate truth with objectivity would suggest such a thing and attribute it to others.

I don't think it was me who was relating the church soley to a building where people gather together. I do think you have become very upset by some of the posts in this thread. You shouldn't, the thrust of them is that it is what God can do in and through every one of us if we let him. It is not what we ourselves can achieve, but rather what he can achieve in us, and therefore we can say with utter conviction

To God be all the glory, all the credit goes to him.

Why would anyone be upset at comments such as that?

 

[Red33]

I don't think it was me who was relating the church soley to a building where people gather together. I do think you have become very upset by some of the posts in this thread. You shouldn't, the thrust of them is that it is what God can do in and through every one of us if we let him. It is not what we ourselves can achieve, but rather what he can achieve in us, and therefore we can say with utter conviction

To God be all the glory, all the credit goes to him.

Why would anyone be upset at comments such as that?

No, it's you alright and those that think like you. You and others won't answer to God, as to the power of God's Spirit in your own life or to the fruit that one should have when abiding in Christ and having His words abide in them. You start getting a little flaky and insecure and start looking for others (even in books or other men of God) to support your lack of conviction and power in your own life. Any infant or babe in Christ has learned that it is all God and all by grace, when they fall, when they get up, in the valley and on the mountain, in times of weakness and in times of strength as they grow in grace and knowledge of Christ.

 

[Red33]

But meeting with other believers in your own home, as opposed to going to a church building is still worshipping God with fellow Christians, and I would say God would be just as happy with that

The power of God is not just in knowing Christ individually but in knowing Christ corporately through His body, that is made up of many members (Rom 12:4,5, 1Cor 12:12,20). Two are better than one (Eccl 4:9, Mt 11:2, 21:1, Lk 10:1, Acts 9:38, 19:22), a three fold cord can not be easily broken (Eccl 4:12), five will chase a thousand and a thousand will sent ten thousand to flight (Lev 26:8). You wouldn't even know what these things mean and how they apply to a local assembly because you do not want to be a participant and you have never under that kind of leadership. You want it your way and not the way God has given it to us in the church through the scriptures.

 

[livingbygrace]

No, it's you alright and those that think like you. You and others won't answer to God, as to the power of God's Spirit in your own life or to the fruit that one should have when abiding in Christ and having His words abide in them. You start getting a little flaky and insecure and start looking for others (even in books or other men of God) to support your lack of conviction and power in your own life. Any infant or babe in Christ has learned that it is all God and all by grace, when they fall, when they get up, in the valley and on the mountain, in times of weakness and in times of strength as they grow in grace and knowledge of Christ.

I have decided not to reply to the above comment. Make of it what you will

For I know what is driving these comments of yours, and what has truly upset you

 

[livingbygrace]

The power of God is not just in knowing Christ individually but in knowing Christ corporately through His body, that is made up of many members (Rom 12:4,5, 1Cor 12:12,20). Two are better than one (Eccl 4:9, Mt 11:2, 21:1, Lk 10:1, Acts 9:38, 19:22), a three fold cord can not be easily broken (Eccl 4:12), five will chase a thousand and a thousand will sent ten thousand to flight (Lev 26:8). You wouldn't even know what these things mean and how they apply to a local assembly because you do not want to be a participant and you have never under that kind of leadership. You want it your way and not the way God has given it to us in the church through the scriptures.

I have been to church for twice as long as you have been a Christian

I see you are still using scripture to try and find fault with others. One poor woman left the site becasue you placed scripture before her to find fault with why she did not go to church, despite the fact she fellowshipped with others in her own home

And her reason I believe was because she had a permenantly disabled child and the minister had told her that God would heal her child if she gave generously to the church.

You in your wisdom gave her a lecture as to how she had not acted perfectly according to scripture.

I could say more, but I won't, I am not playing to a gallery here

 

[unclefester]

But obviously as you say if people choose to willfully sin when they do not have to, or when Christ has delivered them from certain sin the Spirit will obviously not bless them with gifts

This sounds very much like a reward system for our "works or being good". Don't "willfully sin" (whatever that means), and you'll be given the "gifts". BTW....does it not stand to reason that anytime we fail or fall short (or sin), we've done so willfully ?......that is,..given in to our fleshly nature and the temptations therein ?

The idea is that if a person is SINCERE and wants in their heart to follow after Christ and live as he would have them live the "Spirit will not then withold a gift due to a persons imperfections/sin that needs dealing with", for the heart is where it should be with God

Who amongst us that has been convicted of our sin and our need for repentance and salvation through Christ's work on the cross hasn't been "sincere" ? Can one be convicted "insincerely" ? Those of us who don't believe that the gift of tongues is for today (or apostles and prophets),....is our heart not where it "should" be ? If my imperfection and sin had been "properly" dealt with (whatever that means), would I then have been given the "gift" of speaking gibberish .....that is, meaningless words that aren't even actual words ? Of what value is this ? Does this serve as "proof" to those who have received this "gift" that they truly have the Spirit of Christ within ? And if it does, what does this say about their faith, that signs are needed to be assured of as much ? Those who have believed and trusted in Christ's redeeming work on the cross HAVE had their sins properly dealt with.....because God's divinely inspired Word says so. They have been paid in full. And it goes without saying that it is ours to strive and do what is pleasing to our Lord. Faith without works is dead. But faith always precedes works ..... for the latter is just filthy rags in His sight. And herein lies the grace of God.....we are counted righteous by grace through faith.

 

[Red33]

I have been to church for twice as long as you have been a Christian

I see you are still using scripture to try and find fault with others. One poor woman left the site becasue you placed scripture before her to find fault with why she did not go to church, despite the fact she fellowshipped with others in her own home

And her reason I believe was because she had a permenantly disabled child and the minister had told her that God would heal her child if she gave generously to the church.

You in your wisdom gave her a lecture as to how she had not acted perfectly according to scripture.

I could say more, but I won't, I am not playing to a gallery here

I know exactly who you are talking about and have not forgotten a single thing. What is very common for you to do is to exaggerate and make an emphasis to oppose another and discredit them through a third party and it becomes lying and slander on your part. You have no knowledge of any pms that took place nor do you relate to what others said to her that she was also reactionary toward. You are a very crafty and deceitful person when you do this and you are spreading lies and false rumors because of the insecurity in your life that you have never dealt with.