The cultic origins of Annihilationism

[Stunnedbygrace]

Stunned I don't mean to get aggravated towards you, and we can be friendly and joyful. Sorry. No issue there. I just find that your comedic talents during this discussion are somewhat dismissive to what is being presented instead of reflective. Almost as if you're not considering what is being shared.

Would you say this is a recent development? And that for the first 15 pages I was actually thinking? I do tend to get silly when thought has ceased and tennis begins.

 

[BenFTW]

Well...I do honestly think that if there is a thinking man in here who could at least follow my reasoning on the scriptures I've given, (aside from pennepastaEd), that it would most likely be you. But you have read my posts, so I don't know what good dancing the dance again would accomplish...and by the way, I'm not trying to change your mind.

I mean, if its as vital as you believe it to be then shouldn't your aim be to change my mind, for the sake of the lost? I would think it would almost be a responsibility, haha.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

How can a phsically dead person stand before the Lord and give an account for what he did while living?

By being raised to life again...

 

[shrume]

The second death is NOT execution (as above) but eternal separation from God and eternal torment.

Yes, Nehemiah. Everybody knows that is your belief.

If a murderer is executed via electric chair, and he did commit heinous crimes and died in his sins, he will face ETERNAL PUNISHMENT in the Lake of Fire. There are multiple Scripture which teach this, and which have already been quoted.

If he was not saved, he will be burned up in the Lake of fire.

But some here are playing a very dangerous game of ignoring plain Bible truth for their own imaginary beliefs. And not just ignoring Bible truth but reinterpreting the Bible to suit their fancies. Every person -- saved or lost -- must take the written Word of God as it was intended to be taken.

The plain Bible truth appears to be the issue here. You claim the plain Bible truth is that the unsaved will burn in the lake of fire forever, experiencing conscious torments forever, at the hand of God, who is love, and is just. I believe the plain Bible truth is that the wicked will be destroyed, including even the devil himself, and I have provided many scripture backing up my belief.

Now you can shout from your pedestal that what you believe is the truth and anyone who does not agree with you is an heretic, but it won't do any good. It just makes you a rather disagreeable fellow to deal with. You do not have a prayer of a chance that I will change my mind. I am convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt from the scriptures that death means death, and the wages of sin is death. I'm also convinced that one day you'll understand things that way too, even if it does not happen in this life.

Unless this forum makes believing in annihilation a bannable offense, I will continue to profess what I believe, and why, to anyone who wants to discuss it.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I mean, if its as vital as you believe it to be then shouldn't your aim be to change my mind, for the sake of the lost? I would think it would almost be a responsibility, haha.

You think it is my responsibility to repeat myself to you over and over again...?

 

[shrume]

I mean, if its as vital as you believe it to be then shouldn't your aim be to change my mind, for the sake of the lost? I would think it would almost be a responsibility, haha.

Yep. I'm trying to change everyone's mind on this topic.

I realize I won't be successful, but I can try.

The doctrine of the "immortal soul", which is really the root of the differences, is deeply embedded in much of Christianity.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

No it means you have not looked at the full context of the word in the verse, chapter and book to ensure you have the authorial intent.
In Rev 20:13 the word Dead there is not the same word as for exmaple

as what is said in 1Pet 1:21 apoginomai "Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead,(one that has breathed his last, lifeless ) and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

In rev 20:13 nekros "And the sea gave up the dead(the actual spiritual condition of unsaved men, ) which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
so the word dead has to be seen in the light of authorial intent . How can a phsically dead person stand before the Lord and give an account for what he did while living?

The main reason why this idea is error because it speaks against

The literal resurrected body of Christ.

Did Jesus die physically aka dead? Or not? Did Jesus raise from the Dead physically or not? Did Jesus ascend to heaven physically or not? Is Jesus coming back literally and in a glorified Body or not?

Is Jesus going to judge both the living and the dead?

No offence but "dead" in 1 Peter 1:21 and "dead" in Revelation 20:13 are both nekros . . . and in both context meant DEAD as in one that breathed his last . . . neither usage in the context of these verses mean spiritually dead, e.g. destitute of a life that recognizes and is devoted to God, given up to trespasses and sins; inactive as respects doing right - one meaning is literal the other is used metaphorically.

Christians will be raised from the dead and stand before the judgment seat (bema) of Christ (2 Cor. 5:10), not for salvation but for rewards - at the white throne judgment the rest of the dead, small and great will stand before God and the dead will be judged out of those things which are written in the books according to their works - the sea will give up the dead which are in it and death and the grave (hell) delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were all judged according to their works.

 

[CS1]

Yes, I have noted before that it says the beast, false prophet and satan are tormented forever and ever.

It does then say all who aren't written in the book of life are thrown into that same lake of fire. But it doesn't specifically state eternal torment for them as it does for that unholy trinity. (Unless I'm mistaken and it is written somewhere else other than Rev 20.)

I went through 25 posting and 8 tabs and this is the first comment were you used what I think is an incomplte verse or chapter rev 20.

 

[CS1]

No offence but "dead" in 1 Peter 2:24 and "dead" in Revelation 20:13 are both nekros . . . and in both context meant DEAD as in one that breathed his last . . . neither usage in the context of these verses mean spiritually dead, e.g. destitute of a life that recognizes and is devoted to God, given up to trespasses and sins; inactive as respects doing right - one meaning is literal the other is used metaphorically.

Christians will be raised from the dead and stand before the judgment seat (bema) of Christ (2 Cor. 5:10), not for salvation but for rewards - at the white throne judgment the rest of the dead, small and great will stand before God and the dead will be judged out of those things which are written in the books according to their works - the sea will give up the dead which are in it and death and the grave (hell) delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were all judged according to their works.

excuse me and thank you I was looking to use 1 pet 2:24

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I think I might try ben. I'll start here. I'll limit my posts ONLY to replies to you.

God made everything to bring forth of its own kind, including adam and eve. Adam and eve died on the day they ate the fruit. But wait a minute...they didn't die on the day they ate of the fruit, so what am I missing? On the day you eat of it, you will surely die. Yet not only did they not die on that day, they lived hundreds and hundreds of years longer. Explain, ben.

 

[CS1]

But I do think it would be a worse plight to be one of the unholy trinity and be in torment forever and ever and it would be a better plight to be forever put out of misery by perishing.

where is the biblical ref ?

 

[shrume]

No it means you have not looked at the full context of the word in the verse, chapter and book to ensure you have the authorial intent.
In Rev 20:13 the word Dead there is not the same word as for exmaple

as what is said in 1Pet 1:21 apoginomai "Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead,(one that has breathed his last, lifeless ) and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Yes, when Jesus died, he was dead. He was no longer alive.

In rev 20:13 nekros "And the sea gave up the dead(the actual spiritual condition of unsaved men, ) which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
so the word dead has to be seen in the light of authorial intent .

No, nekros does not mean "the spiritual condition of unsaved men". It means dead.

How can a phsically dead person stand before the Lord and give an account for what he did while living?

He will be raised from the dead. He is currently dead, he will be raised from the dead. When that happens, he will no longer be dead, and he will give account of himself. If he is judged guilty, he will be sentenced to the second death, which will be permanent, with no chance of ever being alive again. He will be gone.

The main reason why this idea is error because it speaks against

The literal resurrected body of Christ.

No, it does not. Christ was literally, actually dead until the Father raised him.

Did Jesus die physically aka dead? Or not?

Jesus literally died, and was dead for three days and three nights.

Did Jesus raise from the Dead physically or not?

After three days and three nights, the Father literally raised Jesus from the dead.

Did Jesus ascend to heaven physically or not?

Yes, he did.

Is Jesus coming back literally and in a glorified Body or not?

Absolutely.

Is Jesus going to judge both the living and the dead?

Yes, he is.

So explain again how believing in annihilation speaks against the literal resurrected body of Christ.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I think I might try ben. I'll start here. I'll limit my posts ONLY to replies to you.

God made everything to bring forth of its own kind, including adam and eve. Adam and eve died on the day they ate the fruit. But wait a minute...they didn't die on the day they ate of the fruit, so what am I missing? On the day you eat of it, you will surely die. Yet not only did they not die on that day, they lived hundreds and hundreds of years longer. Explain, ben.

"but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.”

Not meaning that they would die that very day physically, but that there right state with God would change to a state of separation. They eventually did die hundreds of years later and according to other scriptures their spirits would have departed at the time of death, conscious and aware.

As I have told you before and which is supported by scripture, life and death are both states of conscious existence. Life being on-going existence in the presence of the Lord and death being on-going existence in separation from the Lord in the lake of fire. Death neither means unconsciousness nor non-existence, but is defined by ones state of being in relation to God. For those in Christ, their state with God is life. For those who are not in Christ, their state is death, which again is not annihilation or extinction, but they are unreconciled and therefore separated from God.

 

[CS1]

Yes, when Jesus died, he was dead. He was no longer alive.


No, nekros does not mean "the spiritual condition of unsaved men". It means dead.


He will be raised from the dead. He is currently dead, he will be raised from the dead. When that happens, he will no longer be dead, and he will give account of himself. If he is judged guilty, he will be sentenced to the second death, which will be permanent, with no chance of ever being alive again. He will be gone.


No, it does not. Christ was literally, actually dead until the Father raised him.


Jesus literally died, and was dead for three days and three nights.


After three days and three nights, the Father literally raised Jesus from the dead.


Yes, he did.


Absolutely.


Yes, he is.

So explain again how believing in annihilation speaks against the literal resurrected body of Christ.

I will so you answered all that and yet the state of hell torment is not forever ?
because annihilationism is not biblical . And it was not founded on biblical truth. Hell is an eternal place and those who go there do so forever as the word of God says in Mark 9: 43,45 Rev 20:13-14 2 pet 2:4 this is consistant with what Jesus taught. and annihilationism is not. it is Allegorizing of scriptures, it is not proper exegesis. And it is biblical error. there you go .

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

"but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.”

Not meaning that they would die that very day physically, but that there right state with God would change to a state of separation. They eventually did die hundreds of years later and according to other scriptures their spirits would have departed at the time of death, conscious and aware.

As I have told you before and which is supported by scripture, life and death are both states of conscious existence. Life being on-going existence in the presence of the Lord and death being on-going existence in separation from the Lord in the lake of fire. Death neither means unconsciousness nor non-existence, but is defined by ones state of being in relation to God. For those in Christ, their state with God is life. For those who are not in Christ, their state is death, which again is not annihilation or extinction, but they are unreconciled and therefore separated from God.

I thought you said you were ignoring me because of my lack of being able to reason.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

"but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.”

Not meaning that they would die that very day physically, but that there right state with God would change to a state of separation. They eventually did die hundreds of years later and according to other scriptures their spirits would have departed at the time of death, conscious and aware.

As I have told you before and which is supported by scripture, life and death are both states of conscious existence. Life being on-going existence in the presence of the Lord and death being on-going existence in separation from the Lord in the lake of fire. Death neither means unconsciousness nor non-existence, but is defined by ones state of being in relation to God. For those in Christ, their state with God is life. For those who are not in Christ, their state is death, which again is not annihilation or extinction, but they are unreconciled and therefore separated from God.

Satan said: You shall not surely die but scripture makes clear who was telling the truth - Wherefore, as by one man [Adam] sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned. Death, both spiritual and physical, was the result of man's believing Satan's lie. . . .

life and death are both states of conscious existence . . . For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. . . . Whatsoever your had finds to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom in the grave, where you go. . . . life being on-going existence in the presence of the Lord . . . same lie the devil told "you shall not surely die". And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment. (Heb. 9:27)

 

[shrume]

I will so you answered all that and yet the state of hell torment is not forever ?

The second death will be permanent. Eternal conscious torments is not true.

because annihilationism is not biblical .

I believe it is completely biblical. The wages of sin is death (Rom 6:23).

And it was not founded on biblical truth.

I believe that it was, and is.

Hell is an eternal place and those who go there do so forever as the word of God says

The Bible says that death and hell will be thrown into the lake of fire, and destroyed (Rev 20:15).

in Mark 9: 43,45

Mark 9:
43) And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
45) And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

The fire will not be able to be quenched until it's done doing its job, which is to burn things up.

Rev 20:13-14

Rev 20:
13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

There is no indication in those verses that the unsaved will be tormented in a conscious state forever.

2 pet 2:4

2 Pet 2:
4) For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

This verse is speaking of angels that sinned and were thrown into Tartarus. It has literally nothing to do with people.

this is consistant with what Jesus taught. and annihilationism is not.

Jesus taught that the chaff would be burnt up, or carried away. He did not teach eternal torments.

it is Allegorizing of scriptures

As SGB noted above, claiming death is not really death is allegorizing.

it is not proper exegesis. And it is biblical error.

The doctrine of the "immortal soul", and that the unsaved will be tormented forever is both of those things.

there you go .

Indeed....

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Satan said: You shall not surely die but scripture makes clear who was telling the truth - Wherefore, as by one man [Adam] sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned. Death, both spiritual and physical, was the result of man's believing Satan's lie. . . .

Ben's not here so I'll talk with you.
Can you explain the ramifications of that spiritual death?
I think I understand the physical death part. His body began to age and die and the fruit of the tree of life was withheld so that he would not be able to eat and therefore physically live forever in his state.

But it's the spiritual death I would like to hear explained. Did he have some spirit apart from Gods' Spirit, the Eternal Spirit, in him, and then it died? Or did God stop indwelling him with His eternal Spirit?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

The second death will be permanent. Eternal conscious torments is not true.

Do you mean eternal conscious torment will not be for humans or do you mean also not for the unholy trinity?

 

[shrume]

Do you mean eternal conscious torment will not be for humans or do you mean also not for the unholy trinity?

I do not believe anyone or any thing will be in eternal conscious torments.

Even the devil himself will eventually be burned up, and be gone:

Eze 28:
18) Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19) All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Private: SBG, I got both of your PMs and replied to both of them. Are you seeing the responses?