Respectfully, you're making exactly the same mistake that Marilyn made: you're overlooking verse 41, which makes it clear that the legs of iron and the mixed-media feet are the same kingdom. America is not referenced in Daniel 2 at all. There were only four kingdoms, culminating with Rome, which ruled at the time of Christ (the rock hewn from the mountain).
The Difference between Daniel 2 and Daniel 7.
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The roman "civilization" endured till ~1500 CE (wiki keyword search "roman empire" "Fall of Trebizond"). It spawned christendom (european monarchies) up to and past the first ideas of republicanism (magna carta, french revolution). The british remained monarchial. The french went full retard on secularism. Revelation states a 5th beast (false prophet) arose from the earth meaning "the fathful". The first settlers were Christian europeans hence of the same kingdom (Christendom from roman empire) .
As to why the fifth beast of Revelation is not in Daniel, Daniel was a jew and the concept of Immanuel would be foreign. Consider, the persian cyrus was called messiah. Imagine if Daniel were to explain history past Jesus to the babylonian. I would serve no purpose as the concepts are incapable to describe the nuance of the Messiah - fulfillment of the Promise to Abraham, not the Law of Moses. The Apocalypse is a Prophecy against Christians (earth) not against the unbelievers (sea). The clay feet mixed with iron alludes to the "false prophet" in Revelations. Like you said, there is no fifth hegemon described.
As to why the fifth beast of Revelation is not in Daniel, Daniel was a jew and the concept of Immanuel would be foreign. Consider, the persian cyrus was called messiah. Imagine if Daniel were to explain history past Jesus to the babylonian. I would serve no purpose as the concepts are incapable to describe the nuance of the Messiah - fulfillment of the Promise to Abraham, not the Law of Moses. The Apocalypse is a Prophecy against Christians (earth) not against the unbelievers (sea). The clay feet mixed with iron alludes to the "false prophet" in Revelations. Like you said, there is no fifth hegemon described.
"Christendom" may be an outgrowth of the Roman empire, but Christianity is not. Don't confuse them. 
Daniel would likely have been familiar with Isaiah's writings, and therefore with the idea of Immanuel. The vision in Daniel 2 was not given (primarily) to Daniel, but to Nebuchadnezzar; Daniel was given the interpretation.
Daniel would likely have been familiar with Isaiah's writings, and therefore with the idea of Immanuel. The vision in Daniel 2 was not given (primarily) to Daniel, but to Nebuchadnezzar; Daniel was given the interpretation.
Hi Dino,
The KJ & NKJ say `The kingdom,` referring to the `feet and toes,` the divided kingdom.
`And whereas you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter`s clay and partly of iron, THE kingdom shall be divided; yet the strength of the iron shall be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with ceramic clay.
And as the toes of the feet were partly iron and partly clay, so THE kingdom shall be partly strong and partly fragile.` (Dan. 41 & 42)
Each body part of the Great Image from the Head to the feet and toes, are representative of Gentile World Ruling Governments. There is one more that will come to fulfillment and be judged, like the rest, by the Lord God.
The KJ & NKJ say `The kingdom,` referring to the `feet and toes,` the divided kingdom.
`And whereas you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter`s clay and partly of iron, THE kingdom shall be divided; yet the strength of the iron shall be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with ceramic clay.
And as the toes of the feet were partly iron and partly clay, so THE kingdom shall be partly strong and partly fragile.` (Dan. 41 & 42)
Each body part of the Great Image from the Head to the feet and toes, are representative of Gentile World Ruling Governments. There is one more that will come to fulfillment and be judged, like the rest, by the Lord God.
"Christendom" may be an outgrowth of the Roman empire, but Christianity is not. Don't confuse them.
Daniel would likely have been familiar with Isaiah's writings, and therefore with the idea of Immanuel. The vision in Daniel 2 was not given (primarily) to Daniel, but to Nebuchadnezzar; Daniel was given the interpretation.
Daniel would likely have been familiar with Isaiah's writings, and therefore with the idea of Immanuel. The vision in Daniel 2 was not given (primarily) to Daniel, but to Nebuchadnezzar; Daniel was given the interpretation.
The visions disturbed Daniel so much that he had to ponder it. (Daniel 7:15) The only significant scene was the 4th beast (Daniel 7:19). Why? Knowing that there will be a messiah, is different from living and breathing for One. As a jew, Daniel was of the Law, while John was of the Promise. Daniel saw 3 of the Laws uprooted. John only saw a beast that killed his Master.
Yes... several translations say, "the kingdom" or "it"... both of which still clearly refer back to "the fourth kingdom" of verse 40. There is no fifth human kingdom in the passage, only the fourth, which, though having the strength of iron, is divided and therefore weak.
Rome was severely weakened by years of inept rule under Nero, and infighting after his death. Three subsequent emperors lasted less than a year each, before Vespasian (under whose leadership the siege of Jerusalem began) took the helm in 69 and held it for a decade. Its strength waxed and waned until Rome was sacked some 400 years later.
Rome was severely weakened by years of inept rule under Nero, and infighting after his death. Three subsequent emperors lasted less than a year each, before Vespasian (under whose leadership the siege of Jerusalem began) took the helm in 69 and held it for a decade. Its strength waxed and waned until Rome was sacked some 400 years later.
Difference between Dan 2 and Dan 7 is there are 5 hegemons in v2 and 4 hegemons in v7. Marilyn right says it is insight to current day. My contention is that
a) the 5th hegemon is america of today.
b) that the Book of Revelation is a prophecy against Christians (in Christendom)
You rightly state that there should be no conflation between Christianity and Christendom. I assume that is a refutation of the Revelation is prophecy against Christians. I answered that with monarchial epicopates, the Christian will always be under the influence by state politics. It concerns the symbol on the forehead and right hand.
Why are the 10 commandments the 10 horns.
The 4th beast of Daniel is special as it is the only one with horns (Dan 7:8). The Strong's Concordance is H7162 (qeren) which is found only in Daniel 3:5; 3:5; 3:7; 3:10; 3:15; 7:7; 7:7; 7:8; 7:8; 7:8; 7:8; 7:11; 7:20; 7:21; 7:24.
Meaning
1. instrument of music, Daniel 3:5, Daniel 3:7, Daniel 3:10, Daniel 3:15.
2. symbolic, in vision, Daniel 7:7, 8 (3 times in verse); Daniel 7:11, 20 (twice in verse); Daniel 7:21, 24.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/h7162/kjv/wlc/0-1/
If the prophecies are to be understood solely by the bible, only the Law fits into the 10 horns as a symbol in a vision that would cause Daniel great concern. If the 10 kings have not been found in the historical text, it will never be found.
Christianity became the state religion in roman empire and the subsequent christendom. The belief was expressed as obedience to the 10 commandments with trinity, sunday worship and icons.
a) the 5th hegemon is america of today.
b) that the Book of Revelation is a prophecy against Christians (in Christendom)
You rightly state that there should be no conflation between Christianity and Christendom. I assume that is a refutation of the Revelation is prophecy against Christians. I answered that with monarchial epicopates, the Christian will always be under the influence by state politics. It concerns the symbol on the forehead and right hand.
Why are the 10 commandments the 10 horns.
The 4th beast of Daniel is special as it is the only one with horns (Dan 7:8). The Strong's Concordance is H7162 (qeren) which is found only in Daniel 3:5; 3:5; 3:7; 3:10; 3:15; 7:7; 7:7; 7:8; 7:8; 7:8; 7:8; 7:11; 7:20; 7:21; 7:24.
Meaning
1. instrument of music, Daniel 3:5, Daniel 3:7, Daniel 3:10, Daniel 3:15.
2. symbolic, in vision, Daniel 7:7, 8 (3 times in verse); Daniel 7:11, 20 (twice in verse); Daniel 7:21, 24.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/h7162/kjv/wlc/0-1/
If the prophecies are to be understood solely by the bible, only the Law fits into the 10 horns as a symbol in a vision that would cause Daniel great concern. If the 10 kings have not been found in the historical text, it will never be found.
Christianity became the state religion in roman empire and the subsequent christendom. The belief was expressed as obedience to the 10 commandments with trinity, sunday worship and icons.
There are four in chapter 2:
Gold: Babylon
Silver: Medo-Persia
Bronze: Greece
Iron and Clay: Rome
The rock cut from the mountain is Christ and His kingdom, which was initiated during the Roman empire. Christianity (the kingdom of Christ) remains to this day, and will remain, while Rome has long since fallen.
I know that you and Marilyn believe the iron/clay to be a distinct kingdom from the iron, but the text just doesn't support that. Further, there is absolutely nothing in the text to support the 1500+ year gap between Rome and the present. The dream was fulfilled in its entirety. Medo-Persia directly succeeded Babylon, Greece directly succeeded Medo-Persia, and Rome directly succeeded Greece. The contention that a present-day "kingdom" is next in line is, frankly, ludicrous.
I believe Marilyn is incorrect on that. As there is no fifth hegemony, there is no need to speculate on what it represents.
No, it's not. It was only directed at your apparent conflation.
No amount of argument can undermine a clear reference. Daniel 7:24 states that the horns are kings. The symbols have been explained already, and there is no need for speculation on their meaning.
There is no need to force an interpretation the way you are doing so. Daniel was told that the horns were kings. End of story.
Revelation was not prophesied against Christians generally. There are specific warnings and rebukes for specific local first-century churches only.
Gold: Babylon
Silver: Medo-Persia
Bronze: Greece
Iron and Clay: Rome
The rock cut from the mountain is Christ and His kingdom, which was initiated during the Roman empire. Christianity (the kingdom of Christ) remains to this day, and will remain, while Rome has long since fallen.
I know that you and Marilyn believe the iron/clay to be a distinct kingdom from the iron, but the text just doesn't support that. Further, there is absolutely nothing in the text to support the 1500+ year gap between Rome and the present. The dream was fulfilled in its entirety. Medo-Persia directly succeeded Babylon, Greece directly succeeded Medo-Persia, and Rome directly succeeded Greece. The contention that a present-day "kingdom" is next in line is, frankly, ludicrous.
I believe Marilyn is incorrect on that. As there is no fifth hegemony, there is no need to speculate on what it represents.
No, it's not. It was only directed at your apparent conflation.
No amount of argument can undermine a clear reference. Daniel 7:24 states that the horns are kings. The symbols have been explained already, and there is no need for speculation on their meaning.
There is no need to force an interpretation the way you are doing so. Daniel was told that the horns were kings. End of story.
Revelation was not prophesied against Christians generally. There are specific warnings and rebukes for specific local first-century churches only.
Dan 2:33a His legs of iron,
Dan 2:33b his feet part of iron and part of clay.
The fourth kingdom is iron or iron and clay. There are 5 materials or is clay and iron an alloy of some sort? Zechariah 13:9 aren't the faithful like silver and gold. Is what you see is only form? What of the substance? There are 5 substances. What is clay? Earth.
There was a term in ancient rome in the imperial days called pax romana. The term used these days in geopolitics us called pax americana. Hegemon anyone?
Here's a joke (caution a little catholic imagery) you probably heard. A pious man is tossed overboard, and is drowning in the sea. He prays to God to be saved. In about an hour, a piece of wreck floats by. He ignores it as it is not the Hand of God and keeps on praying. This repeats with a louis vuitton bag, a whale. Finally he passes and meets St. Peter who welcomes him. The drowned is angry, "I prayed for the longest time, why was I not saved". St. Peter "What do you think the wreck, bag and whale was for?"
I think you lack intuition. Be wary that it does not lead you astray. It is hard to escape a prison without walls.
Kings. "In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king." "With regard to air supremacy, the raptor is king" "In the jungle, the lion is king, but the elephant is a force of nature". Your are right! I hope they are the F-22s as I have never seen! Read the hebrew, and wallow not in the english.
The Book of Revelation follows the format of OT prophecies. All the symbols can only be understood by a bible believer. The 7 churches are before God and but none have bishporics of their own today. Punishment of the unbeliever is an uncontroversial thing. But what of the Left and Right Hand Side of Jesus? I guess as long as you are by His Side all is ok.
"Carry on, nothing to see here!" - I think it was Monty Python skit.
Dan 2:33b his feet part of iron and part of clay.
The fourth kingdom is iron or iron and clay. There are 5 materials or is clay and iron an alloy of some sort? Zechariah 13:9 aren't the faithful like silver and gold. Is what you see is only form? What of the substance? There are 5 substances. What is clay? Earth.
There was a term in ancient rome in the imperial days called pax romana. The term used these days in geopolitics us called pax americana. Hegemon anyone?
No, it's not. It was only directed at your apparent conflation.
No amount of argument can undermine a clear reference. Daniel 7:24 states that the horns are kings. The symbols have been explained already, and there is no need for speculation on their meaning.
There is no need to force an interpretation the way you are doing so. Daniel was told that the horns were kings. End of story.
Revelation was not prophesied against Christians generally. There are specific warnings and rebukes for specific local first-century churches only.
No amount of argument can undermine a clear reference. Daniel 7:24 states that the horns are kings. The symbols have been explained already, and there is no need for speculation on their meaning.
There is no need to force an interpretation the way you are doing so. Daniel was told that the horns were kings. End of story.
Revelation was not prophesied against Christians generally. There are specific warnings and rebukes for specific local first-century churches only.
I think you lack intuition. Be wary that it does not lead you astray. It is hard to escape a prison without walls.
Kings. "In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king." "With regard to air supremacy, the raptor is king" "In the jungle, the lion is king, but the elephant is a force of nature". Your are right! I hope they are the F-22s as I have never seen! Read the hebrew, and wallow not in the english.
The Book of Revelation follows the format of OT prophecies. All the symbols can only be understood by a bible believer. The 7 churches are before God and but none have bishporics of their own today. Punishment of the unbeliever is an uncontroversial thing. But what of the Left and Right Hand Side of Jesus? I guess as long as you are by His Side all is ok.
"Carry on, nothing to see here!" - I think it was Monty Python skit.
It's not clear to me what you're saying. I am well aware that there are five substances mentioned in Daniel 2. However, there are only four human kingdoms.
The word is hegemony, not hegemon. Daniel says nothing about there never being hegemonies again.
Intuition is completely irrelevant here. We do not interpret the Bible by intuition, but by examination. Perhaps intuition (combined with insufficient grounding in the actual text) has led you astray.
The word is hegemony, not hegemon. Daniel says nothing about there never being hegemonies again.
Intuition is completely irrelevant here. We do not interpret the Bible by intuition, but by examination. Perhaps intuition (combined with insufficient grounding in the actual text) has led you astray.
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There are 4 human kingdoms and in Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth:
In Dan 7, there are only 4 substance. Inconsistency? The added substance in Dan 2 is earth. What is earth but a symbol of the faithful. Does the prophecy of Daniel end with the Book of Daniel or must it not conform with the rest of the bible?
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hegemon
Definition of hegemon
: something (such as a political state) having dominant influence or authority over others : one possessing hegemony.
Hegemony is concept while hegemon is the wielder of the concept.
Royalty is a concept while king is the wielder of the concept.
We are endowed with intellect. One aspect of intellect is pattern recognition. I agree with you, checking the pattern with the Scriptures is paramount to truth. Not acknowledging the pattern is also detrimental as the understanding will never be complete. No questions, no answers.
Here is one of my axioms, see if you agree.
The scriptures are not extraneous. There is no fluff in the Inspired words.
In Dan 7, there are only 4 substance. Inconsistency? The added substance in Dan 2 is earth. What is earth but a symbol of the faithful. Does the prophecy of Daniel end with the Book of Daniel or must it not conform with the rest of the bible?
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hegemon
Definition of hegemon
: something (such as a political state) having dominant influence or authority over others : one possessing hegemony.
Hegemony is concept while hegemon is the wielder of the concept.
Royalty is a concept while king is the wielder of the concept.
We are endowed with intellect. One aspect of intellect is pattern recognition. I agree with you, checking the pattern with the Scriptures is paramount to truth. Not acknowledging the pattern is also detrimental as the understanding will never be complete. No questions, no answers.
Here is one of my axioms, see if you agree.
The scriptures are not extraneous. There is no fluff in the Inspired words.
Hi LI,
So glad you are thinking contemporary. let`s discuss that -
America is not different from say the British Commonwealth, or Europe. Scripture says that the last kingdom, (`feet and toes/terrifying beast) is `different from all the beasts that were before it.` (Dan. 7: 7)
The beastly Federations are Political. Remember the religious aspect of the final Gentile Global Government get done away with.
` the 10 horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the prostitute, make her desolate and naked; eat her flesh and burn with fire.` (Rev. 17: 16)
Thus the 10 king/leaders of the final Gentile Global Government, (Political) will do away with the religions of the world. Note the religions of the world have a `mother` an over arching power and control over them.
`Mystery, Babylon the Great, the mother of prostitutes...` (Rev. 17: 5)
Looking at all the scriptures concerning this final composite Global Government will do see clear indications of who they all are.
Marilyn.
So glad you are thinking contemporary. let`s discuss that -
America is not different from say the British Commonwealth, or Europe. Scripture says that the last kingdom, (`feet and toes/terrifying beast) is `different from all the beasts that were before it.` (Dan. 7: 7)
The beastly Federations are Political. Remember the religious aspect of the final Gentile Global Government get done away with.
` the 10 horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the prostitute, make her desolate and naked; eat her flesh and burn with fire.` (Rev. 17: 16)
Thus the 10 king/leaders of the final Gentile Global Government, (Political) will do away with the religions of the world. Note the religions of the world have a `mother` an over arching power and control over them.
`Mystery, Babylon the Great, the mother of prostitutes...` (Rev. 17: 5)
Looking at all the scriptures concerning this final composite Global Government will do see clear indications of who they all are.
Marilyn.