The essential characteristics of the Biblical Jesus

[BrotherJustin]

I think the two translations available at https://carm.org/ probably have some validity because according to wikipedia, they are both very widely used.

Recall: If you can't show the translator's reasoning, then it is as good as useless...

I thought it was strange that an expert in "Koranic Arabic" did not already know the reasoning of the translators of the two most common versions of the Quran.

 

[Dan_473]

I hate to break it to you, Dan....but every translation out there is personal.

That's why there are so many...

by "personal", I mean translated and, more importantly, used by one person.

I think many muslims say the koran should only be read in arabic... if that's the case, then is it fair to say that in order to use the approach you're talking about, a person needs to be fluent in arabic?

 

[Bowman]

Here's my issue with your claim(s), Bowman:

You claim that the primary reason this new knowledge you've found is beneficial to Christians is that it allows us to use the Quran to convert Muslims to Christianity.

Correct.

The problem with your reason: Your Muslim acquaintance who prompted you to go down this path of study two decades ago is still not a Christian.

And I'm still not a Muslim, either.....so what does that prove?

Do you know of any who have converted to Christianity based on your supposition that the Muhammad of the Quran is actually Jesus Christ?

I plant seeds....I don't tally numbers...

Numerous people have implemented my findings into their ministries over the years.

You seem to be hung-up on the notion that the credibility of this discovery hinges upon people being converted...otherwise, you wont believe it yourself...

I'm open to hearing more ideas as to how your supposition is beneficial to the Body of Christ. That would be something worth breaking the silence.

And so you shall...

 

[Dan_473]

Showing the context of the subsequent ayah, like I already mentioned...

And their saying: "Truly we killed The Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son,“allah's”messenger”,and that they killed him,and that they crucified him, and certainly they alike, and truly whom they followed in Him,certainly they (are) not indoubt from Him,on account of Him, from knowledge, except to follow the belief, and that they surely killed him. But “allah”,he raised Himto him, and“allah” was mighty, wise. And that fromThe Book's people, except he certainly shall believe with Him before His death; and the Resurrection Day is on them a witness. (4.157 – 159)

Context shows the sequence of events, beginning with Jesus' crucifixion and ending with His Resurrection....all according to 'alkitab'.

Pretty clear...Dan...







I have some ocean front property in Iowa for sale.







All Muslims must obey the Arabic.

it would help if it were clear in a translation used by many people.





I take your reasoning about the iowa property is this way:

the reasonings behind the translations at carm.org isn't presented.

therefore those translations are invalid.

the reasonings behind the kjv aren't presented.

therefore the kjv is invalid.

is this correct?




if all Muslims must obey the Arabic, then why are we discussing koranic passages in english? if it's because I don't understand arabic, then that same issue will arise with a muslim I talk with.

 

[BrotherJustin]

You seem to be hung-up on the notion that the credibility of this discovery hinges upon people being converted...otherwise, you wont believe it yourself...

Perhaps I am. The discovery would be much easier to trust if, as you said, (1) I knew Arabic or (2) it was published and widely accepted by "academia".

Curious: What is the Quran (Koran?) to you, now that you've created your own translation?

 

[Bowman]

[The rest of the koran quote and Bowman's comments truncated by Dan]



maybe I should clarify the "Jesus-centered".
the ot was written before Jesus was born, so its references to Jesus will be in the sense of prophecy and metaphor, imo.
both the koran and the bom were written after Jesus' birth...
so if the koran was written by christians, I would expect a lot more sayings like Jesus is the "heir of all things". (does the koran say that? I don't know...)

The Koranic material is >75% Book of Revelation material, all by itself.....and we know that Revelation is entirely about Jesus.

what do you believe the beliefs of the alleged christian authors to be?

They were Orthodox Trinitarian Christians.

I think the two translations available at https://carm.org/ probably have some validity because according to wikipedia, they are both very widely used.

Popularity has never been a good indicator of correctness.

Further, anyone can edit a wiki...

is it possible all those people are wrong? sure... but which is more likely?

do you believe that there is a conspiracy to mis-translate, to lead muslims astray?

Ignorance is the more appropriate term, I believe...

Same for the Jews and their Tanak....is it a conspiracy that Jews deny Jesus?

No....its sheer ignorance.

what translation are you using at the end of your post, there... the part that I truncated?

All renderings are mine.

Feel free to challenge them, directly.

 

[Dan_473]

It all depends upon how motivated you are...







That does not negate that each requires study as to how it was derived.






Thank you!

yes, motivation, and I think God's leading, as well... one might also be drawn to learn sanskrit to talk to hindus, hebrew to talk to jews, chinese for the taoists... there are many great ways to work for God's kingdom!




do you believe that translations can be done with mathematical precision in the same sense that mathematical equations can?




you're very welcome!

 

[Bowman]

Recall: If you can't show the translator's reasoning, then it is as good as useless...

I thought it was strange that an expert in "Koranic Arabic" did not already know the reasoning of the translators of the two most common versions of the Quran.

You two will do anything to get out of doing a little work.

Like I've always stated.....if you go to the effort of positing someone else's rendering(s) for your position; then you should be able to defend that other person's rendering.....otherwise, what good is it?

Pretty simple...

 

[Bowman]

by "personal", I mean translated and, more importantly, used by one person.

I think many muslims say the koran should only be read in arabic... if that's the case, then is it fair to say that in order to use the approach you're talking about, a person needs to be fluent in arabic?

Referencing the original written Koranic Arabic is absolutely essential because the language has been thoroughly corrupted since the time that it was first penned.

Thus...the colloquial aspects of Arabic have no merit...

 

[Bowman]

it would help if it were clear in a translation used by many people.


I take your reasoning about the iowa property is this way:

the reasonings behind the translations at carm.org isn't presented.

therefore those translations are invalid.

the reasonings behind the kjv aren't presented.

therefore the kjv is invalid.

is this correct?

Not invalid....but not accurate, either.

See the difference?

The KJV, while still very popular, is based upon antiquated manuscripts like the Textus Receptus.

if all Muslims must obey the Arabic, then why are we discussing koranic passages in english? if it's because I don't understand arabic, then that same issue will arise with a muslim I talk with.

80% of Muslims don't know a lick of Arabic.

English is the universal language.

English, with its millions of words, is also infinitely more fine-tuned than Arabic, and is actually the preferred language to articulate the meaning of the original Arabic. Numerous Islamic scholars have admitted this to me over the years.

 

[BrotherJustin]

You two will do anything to get out of doing a little work.

Like I've always stated.....if you go to the effort of positing someone else's rendering(s) for your position; then you should be able to defend that other person's rendering.....otherwise, what good is it?

Pretty simple...

Hmmm... By this notion, then we should also know the position of the authors of the KJV (or any other version of the Bible) before we quote scripture as support for our statements. And, it seems, to do this we must become experts in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. That's a big pill to swallow!

When I step into my car and get behind the wheel to drive, I don't know the reasoning behind why the engineers chose to design the vehicle in the manner which it is designed. I'm not fluent in mechanical engineering--but I trust their work because trustworthy people also do.

I don't really appreciate your personal remarks concerning me--it does shed a little light onto your personal character--but ultimately--it's just your opinion.

 

[Bowman]

Perhaps I am. The discovery would be much easier to trust if, as you said, (1) I knew Arabic or (2) it was published and widely accepted by "academia".

There are numerous other scholars out there drawing the same conclusions.

I already referenced a recent book on another thread.

Curious: What is the Quran (Koran?) to you, now that you've created your own translation?

Its a '1400 year old' extra-Biblical confirmation to the validity of the Holy Bible.

 

[Bowman]

yes, motivation, and I think God's leading, as well... one might also be drawn to learn sanskrit to talk to hindus, hebrew to talk to jews, chinese for the taoists... there are many great ways to work for God's kingdom!




do you believe that translations can be done with mathematical precision in the same sense that mathematical equations can?




you're very welcome!

Not when words have more than one meaning.

 

[Dan_473]

Bowman, I think you misunderstand me. I am not playing some game where we one-up each other or attempt to make the other person fold--I'm here to try to gain a better understanding.

You claimed that you have found, through proper translation of the Quran, that Muhammad is actually Jesus.

I am not attempting to prove you wrong. What I am doing, is asking you to explain what good has come and might come from this new knowledge (should it be true).

amen to gaining understanding!

You [Bowman] have not let-up from this arrogant tone... you've continued it for days now--and I'm beginning to wonder if this is why so many Christians here have taken such issue with you. For, it's not that you are presenting your position inaccurately--it's that you are presenting your position in a conceited, condescending manner.

Bowman, in all gentleness, I think BrotherJustin is saying what several other CC users have said. if one person said that... no big deal. but several generally calm, rational users have said basically the same thing.

talking with muslims is great! may we all strive to do it with gentleness and the other fruits of the spirit.

Do you [Bowman] know of any who have converted to Christianity based on your supposition that the Muhammad of the Quran is actually Jesus Christ?

good question! I know of many messianic synagogues where jewish people became christians, even though a veil was previously over their heart.

I know there are muslims who have converted, also... do they have an online presence? it'd be great if they did... and mostly, we could see how many converted based on the approach Bowman advocates.

 

[BrotherJustin]

There are numerous other scholars out there drawing the same conclusions.

Interesting--I recall you stating that you are the first person to come to this conclusion.

I already referenced a recent book on another thread.

K.

Its a '1400 year old' extra-Biblical confirmation to the validity of the Holy Bible.

Sounds almost exactly like what the Mormons say about their Book of Mormon.

"The Book of Mormon reaffirms what we learn from the Bible..."
"...the Book of Mormon and the Bible both contain the gospel of Jesus Christ as it was revealed to different civilizations, studying them together can clarify some concepts that are difficult to understand."

Source: https://www.mormon.org/beliefs/book-of-mormon

 

[Bowman]

Hmmm... By this notion, then we should also know the position of the authors of the KJV (or any other version of the Bible) before we quote scripture as support for our statements.

Of course!

Further, you should ALWAYS consult the original languages.

And, it seems, to do this we must become experts in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. That's a big pill to swallow!

No.

You consult the experts.

Do you first become a dentist before going to the dentist?

When I step into my car and get behind the wheel to drive, I don't know the reasoning behind why the engineers chose to design the vehicle in the manner which it is designed. I'm not fluent in mechanical engineering--but I trust their work because trustworthy people also do.

I hope you don't drive a Ford....

I don't really appreciate your personal remarks concerning me--it does shed a little light onto your personal character--but ultimately--it's just your opinion.

Jason....its not like you ever address any of the scripture that I posit.

You are not that involved in scripture....thus, I must interface on your own level....

 

[Bowman]

Interesting--I recall you stating that you are the first person to come to this conclusion.

That I know of.

Others came later...

Sounds almost exactly like what the Mormons say about their Book of Mormon.

"The Book of Mormon reaffirms what we learn from the Bible..."
"...the Book of Mormon and the Bible both contain the gospel of Jesus Christ as it was revealed to different civilizations, studying them together can clarify some concepts that are difficult to understand."

Source: https://www.mormon.org/beliefs/book-of-mormon[

Can you find the same on islam.com...?

 

[BrotherJustin]

Can you find the same on islam.com...?

Nope! You're the first person I've heard of who has come to this conclusion.

I think it's a fantastic conclusion...

...I just don't know what to do with it!

I don't know what all of the implications are--and I don't know how we get more people to draw the same conclusion.

 

[Dan_473]

Recall: If you can't show the translator's reasoning, then it is as good as useless...

I thought it was strange that an expert in "Koranic Arabic" did not already know the reasoning of the translators of the two most common versions of the Quran.

I didn't know they were the two most common versions, that's good to know... from what I read they were very common... either way, it lends weight to them.

 

[Dan_473]

I plant seeds....I don't tally numbers...

Numerous people have implemented my findings into their ministries over the years.

You [BrotherJustin] seem to be hung-up on the notion that the credibility of this discovery hinges upon people being converted...otherwise, you wont believe it yourself...

do any of them have an online presence where they talk about it?

for me, since I don't speak arabic, the credibility is affected by how many arabic experts endorse it... if they become christians too, that's great!