The Falling Away - pre-trib rapture or ???
- Thread starter DavidTree
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Matthew 24:10 (the passage DT just supplied in the post before yours, here, in his Post #20) is absolutely NOT referring to the "rapture."
AGREED!
[note to the readers: "the beginning of birth PANGS" are EQUIVALENT to the "SEALS" of Revelation 6... so Matt24:4-8 and following (verses, incl'g v.10) are what take place AFTER "our Rapture" (that is, those take place IN the"7 yr" TRIB yrs)]
AGREED!
[note to the readers: "the beginning of birth PANGS" are EQUIVALENT to the "SEALS" of Revelation 6... so Matt24:4-8 and following (verses, incl'g v.10) are what take place AFTER "our Rapture" (that is, those take place IN the"7 yr" TRIB yrs)]
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“This is a very serious matter - adding to and taking away from God's words is the sin that leads to heresy and death.”
Heresy is terrible because it also leads others who listen to it astray like the serpent did in Eden.
“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.”
2 Peter 2:1-2 KJV
“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
…Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.”
John 14:6-7, 23-24 KJV
the ot false prophets did the same as the church does now they bEgan to teach isreal that Gods warnings written in the law and prophets against them if they didn’t repent would never come , they were chosen and he was good so he would never carry out all of his warnings against them.
Gods word is true and will come to pass both the blessing and the cursing. The way of truth and all the confusion and lack of understanding and judgement is why Jesus came me made such a big deal about his words
“Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
John 18:37 KJV
If we can’t agree with Christs word we can never know the truth that sets us free from satans snare in our hearts and minds
Heresy is terrible because it also leads others who listen to it astray like the serpent did in Eden.
“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.”
2 Peter 2:1-2 KJV
“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
…Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.”
John 14:6-7, 23-24 KJV
the ot false prophets did the same as the church does now they bEgan to teach isreal that Gods warnings written in the law and prophets against them if they didn’t repent would never come , they were chosen and he was good so he would never carry out all of his warnings against them.
Gods word is true and will come to pass both the blessing and the cursing. The way of truth and all the confusion and lack of understanding and judgement is why Jesus came me made such a big deal about his words
“Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
John 18:37 KJV
If we can’t agree with Christs word we can never know the truth that sets us free from satans snare in our hearts and minds
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Matthew 24:10 (the passage DT just supplied in the post before yours, here, in his Post #20) is absolutely NOT referring to the "rapture."
AGREED!
[note to the readers: "the beginning of birth PANGS" are EQUIVALENT to the "SEALS" of Revelation 6... so Matt24:4-8 and following (verses, incl'g v.10) are what take place AFTER "our Rapture" (that is, those take place IN the"7 yr" TRIB yrs)]
AGREED!
[note to the readers: "the beginning of birth PANGS" are EQUIVALENT to the "SEALS" of Revelation 6... so Matt24:4-8 and following (verses, incl'g v.10) are what take place AFTER "our Rapture" (that is, those take place IN the"7 yr" TRIB yrs)]
Our Lord Jesus Christ said: "I am the Resurrection"
HE never said 'I am the rapture'.
HE spoke against the error of pre-trib rapture making it null and void to all His Elect/His Saints/His Bride.
Matthew 24 is written and spoken to His Bride, then and now and until His Words are fulfilled.
Beware Brethren of the deception of pre-trib which is a lie from the enemy to divide the Church, which it has done.
Today, the Holy Spirit is calling to those who are His, to reject this lie and stand together in the Word of Truth.
For no lie is of the Truth.
The Way to freedom from error is through obedience to the Word.
I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.
As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth. John 17
The first and greatest commandment is to love God
Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words
Or He will rebuke you, and you will be proved a liar. Proverbs 30:5-6
By these commandments we can know who speaks truth and who speaks error.
For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Revelation 22:18-19
The Holy Spirit and His Bride are calling to you now to flee error and to drink Life Giving Water.
And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely. Revelation 22:17
I'm surprised and dismayed at how many responses are just personal comments--and many rather tangled and confusing--so few answering the question--is it a 'departing of the faith' or is it 'the rapture'. I may have missed other ones, but it seems Omega and possibly a couple of others, backed up their response with scripture. You can easily go to biblehub.com and see how the word translates. Also Hannah Whitall Smith once said, "All (Christian) fanaticism comes from the isolation of verses" Scripture is meant to be understood by the big picture from Genesis to Revelation.
'Falling Away' in other translations is 'rebellion', 'revolt'; 'apostasy'--we can see by exchanging these definitions that it means against God and has nothing to do with the rapture.
'Falling Away' in other translations is 'rebellion', 'revolt'; 'apostasy'--we can see by exchanging these definitions that it means against God and has nothing to do with the rapture.
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Beautiful and well said - you are 100% correct in saying isolation of scripture creates fanaticism.
Now there are two main individuals who are now seeking to isolate a single two word phrase in a futile, last ditch attempt to keep their sinking boat afloat.
Scripture cannot lie and it is Self Correcting when misused by carnal logic.
As the Apostle John said "no lie is of the truth."
Now there are two main individuals who are now seeking to isolate a single two word phrase in a futile, last ditch attempt to keep their sinking boat afloat.
Scripture cannot lie and it is Self Correcting when misused by carnal logic.
As the Apostle John said "no lie is of the truth."
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[quoting]
"In the first century, we see apostasia used by the historian,
Josephus, in a political sense (Jos. Vit., 43) to
signify a rebellion against civil authority. However,
the term was also used during this time to describe a
fever departing from an ill person, and a boat departing
from a dock."
--JB Hixson [Duluth Bible dot org]
[end quoting; bold mine]
____________
Does the word always "signify a rebellion against CIVIL AUTHORITY"?
No. Only in CONTEXTS where that idea is being conveyed.
____________
"[Kenneth S. Wuest is a member of the Faculty of the Moody Bible Institute, Chicago, Illinois, and author of numerous books on New Testament Greek.]"
"The Rapture: Precisely When?" - Kenneth S Wuest
"The answer to these questions will only be convincing to the reader if it is based upon the rules of Biblical exegesis. [...<snip>...] That interpretation which is based upon the above rules is to be regarded as correct until it can be shown by the reapplication of the same rules that an error of human judgment has crept in.
"There is such a thing, therefore, as a scientific method of studying the Word. The student who follows the rules of an experiment in chemistry brings that experiment to a successful conclusion. The student who does not ends up with an explosion. Just so, the student who conducts his study of the Bible along the scientific lines noted above arrives at the correct interpretation, and the student who does not at the wrong one. The exegetical method the student uses in answering the question with reference to the time of the rapture will determine whether he believes in a pretribulational or a posttribulational rapture.
[...]
"The words "a falling away" are the Authorized Version rendering of apostasia. The verbal form afistamai from which it comes is present middle of afisthmi, the root verb, which we will study. The simple verb Jisthmi [histemi] in its intransitive sense means "to stand," the prefixed preposition means "off, away from," and the compound verb, "to stand off from." The word does not mean "to fall." The Greeks had a word for that, piptw. Afisthmi, in its various uses, is reported by Thayer as follows: "to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to stand off, stand aloof, to desert, to withdraw from one"; in contexts where a defection from the faith is in view, it means "to fall away, become faithless." The verb is rendered by the translators of the Authorized Version "to depart," in Luke 2:32; Luke 4:13; Luke 13:27; Acts 12:10; Acts 15:38; Acts 19:9; Acts 22:29; 2 Corinthians 12:8; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 2:19; Hebrews 3:12. In Luke 8:13 it is translated "fall away," in Acts 5:37, "drew away," and in Acts 5:38, "refrain." Had they translated the word here instead of interpreting it, they would have rendered it by the word "departure." The reader will observe that the predominant translation of the verbal form is "to depart," also, that where it is translated "fall away," the context adds the idea of "falling away" to the verb, which action is still a departure.
E. Schuyler English, to whom this present writer is deeply indebted for calling his attention to the word "departure" as the correct rendering of apostasia in this context, also informs us that the following translators understood the Greek word to mean "a departure" in this context: Tyndale (1534), Coverdale (1535), the Geneva Bible (1537), Cranmer (1539), and Beza (1565), and so used it in their translations. Apostasia is used once more in the New Testament and is translated "to forsake" (AV), signifying a departure. The neuter noun apostasion in Matthew 5:31; Matthew 19:7; and Mark 10:4 is rendered by the Authorized Version, "divorcement," which word also signifies a departure, here, from antecedent relations.
The writer is well aware of the fact that apostasia was used at times both in classical and koine Greek in the sense of a defection, a revolt in a religious sense, a rebellion against God, and of the act of apostasy. Liddell and Scott in their classical lexicon give the above as the first definition of the word. Moulton and Milligan quote a papyrus fragment where the word means "a rebel." But these are acquired meanings of the word gotten from the context in which it is used, not the original, basic, literal meaning, and should not be imposed upon the word when the context does not qualify the word by these meanings, as in the case of our Thessalonians passage, where the context in which apostasia is embedded does not refer to a defection from the truth but to the rapture of the church. The fact that our word "apostasy" means a defection from the truth is entirely beside the point since we do not interpret Scripture upon the basis of a transliterated word to which a certain meaning has been given, but upon the basis of what the Greek word mean to the first century reader. The fact that Paul in 1 Timothy 4:1 uses this verb in the words "some shall depart from the faith" and finds it necessary to qualify its meaning by the phrase "from the faith" indicates that the word itself has no such connotation. The translators of the Authorized Version did not translate the word, but offered their interpretation of it. They should have translated it and allowed the student to interpret it in its context.
With the translation of the word before us, the next step is to ascertain from the context that to which this departure refers. We note the presence of the Greek definite article before apostasia, of which the translation takes no notice. A Greek word is definite in itself, and when the article is used the exegete must pay particular attention to it. "The basal function of the article is to point out individual identity. It does more than mark 'the object as definitely conceived,' for a substantive in Greek is definite without the article." This departure, whatever it is, is a particular one, one differentiated from all others. Another function of the article is "to denote previous reference." Here the article points out an object the identity of which is defined by some previous reference made to it in the context." Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 has just spoken of the coming of the Lord. This coming is defined by the words "our gathering together unto him," not as the second advent, but as the rapture. The Greek word rendered "and" can also be translated "even," and the translation reads, "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, even our gathering together unto him."
The article before apostasia defines that word by pointing to "the gathering together unto him" as that departure. This article determines the context which defines apostasia. The translators took the context of 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 as deciding the significance of the word, but they went too far afield, not grasping the function of the definite article preceding apostasia which points back to the rapture of 2 Thessalonians 2:1, not ahead to the refusal to believe the truth of 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12. The article is all-important here, as in many instances of its use in the Greek New Testament. In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, Paul had given these saints teaching on the rapture, and the Greek article here points to that which was well known to both the reader and the writer, which is another use of the Greek definite article. Thus, the departure of the church from earth to heaven must precede the great tribulation period [TDW: I would say, "must precede the (7-yr) tribulation period" to be more specific (for 'GREAT tribulation' refers only to the latter half of it, though I find that most ppl mis-label this also)]. And we have answered our questions again."
--Kenneth S Wuest, "The Rapture--Precisely When?", Bibliotheca Sacra, BSac 114:453 (Jan 57), p.60
[ www. galaxie . com/article/bsac114-453-05 ]
[end quoting]
"In the first century, we see apostasia used by the historian,
Josephus, in a political sense (Jos. Vit., 43) to
signify a rebellion against civil authority. However,
the term was also used during this time to describe a
fever departing from an ill person, and a boat departing
from a dock."
--JB Hixson [Duluth Bible dot org]
[end quoting; bold mine]
____________
Does the word always "signify a rebellion against CIVIL AUTHORITY"?
No. Only in CONTEXTS where that idea is being conveyed.
____________
"[Kenneth S. Wuest is a member of the Faculty of the Moody Bible Institute, Chicago, Illinois, and author of numerous books on New Testament Greek.]"
"The Rapture: Precisely When?" - Kenneth S Wuest
"The answer to these questions will only be convincing to the reader if it is based upon the rules of Biblical exegesis. [...<snip>...] That interpretation which is based upon the above rules is to be regarded as correct until it can be shown by the reapplication of the same rules that an error of human judgment has crept in.
"There is such a thing, therefore, as a scientific method of studying the Word. The student who follows the rules of an experiment in chemistry brings that experiment to a successful conclusion. The student who does not ends up with an explosion. Just so, the student who conducts his study of the Bible along the scientific lines noted above arrives at the correct interpretation, and the student who does not at the wrong one. The exegetical method the student uses in answering the question with reference to the time of the rapture will determine whether he believes in a pretribulational or a posttribulational rapture.
[...]
"The words "a falling away" are the Authorized Version rendering of apostasia. The verbal form afistamai from which it comes is present middle of afisthmi, the root verb, which we will study. The simple verb Jisthmi [histemi] in its intransitive sense means "to stand," the prefixed preposition means "off, away from," and the compound verb, "to stand off from." The word does not mean "to fall." The Greeks had a word for that, piptw. Afisthmi, in its various uses, is reported by Thayer as follows: "to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to stand off, stand aloof, to desert, to withdraw from one"; in contexts where a defection from the faith is in view, it means "to fall away, become faithless." The verb is rendered by the translators of the Authorized Version "to depart," in Luke 2:32; Luke 4:13; Luke 13:27; Acts 12:10; Acts 15:38; Acts 19:9; Acts 22:29; 2 Corinthians 12:8; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 2:19; Hebrews 3:12. In Luke 8:13 it is translated "fall away," in Acts 5:37, "drew away," and in Acts 5:38, "refrain." Had they translated the word here instead of interpreting it, they would have rendered it by the word "departure." The reader will observe that the predominant translation of the verbal form is "to depart," also, that where it is translated "fall away," the context adds the idea of "falling away" to the verb, which action is still a departure.
E. Schuyler English, to whom this present writer is deeply indebted for calling his attention to the word "departure" as the correct rendering of apostasia in this context, also informs us that the following translators understood the Greek word to mean "a departure" in this context: Tyndale (1534), Coverdale (1535), the Geneva Bible (1537), Cranmer (1539), and Beza (1565), and so used it in their translations. Apostasia is used once more in the New Testament and is translated "to forsake" (AV), signifying a departure. The neuter noun apostasion in Matthew 5:31; Matthew 19:7; and Mark 10:4 is rendered by the Authorized Version, "divorcement," which word also signifies a departure, here, from antecedent relations.
The writer is well aware of the fact that apostasia was used at times both in classical and koine Greek in the sense of a defection, a revolt in a religious sense, a rebellion against God, and of the act of apostasy. Liddell and Scott in their classical lexicon give the above as the first definition of the word. Moulton and Milligan quote a papyrus fragment where the word means "a rebel." But these are acquired meanings of the word gotten from the context in which it is used, not the original, basic, literal meaning, and should not be imposed upon the word when the context does not qualify the word by these meanings, as in the case of our Thessalonians passage, where the context in which apostasia is embedded does not refer to a defection from the truth but to the rapture of the church. The fact that our word "apostasy" means a defection from the truth is entirely beside the point since we do not interpret Scripture upon the basis of a transliterated word to which a certain meaning has been given, but upon the basis of what the Greek word mean to the first century reader. The fact that Paul in 1 Timothy 4:1 uses this verb in the words "some shall depart from the faith" and finds it necessary to qualify its meaning by the phrase "from the faith" indicates that the word itself has no such connotation. The translators of the Authorized Version did not translate the word, but offered their interpretation of it. They should have translated it and allowed the student to interpret it in its context.
With the translation of the word before us, the next step is to ascertain from the context that to which this departure refers. We note the presence of the Greek definite article before apostasia, of which the translation takes no notice. A Greek word is definite in itself, and when the article is used the exegete must pay particular attention to it. "The basal function of the article is to point out individual identity. It does more than mark 'the object as definitely conceived,' for a substantive in Greek is definite without the article." This departure, whatever it is, is a particular one, one differentiated from all others. Another function of the article is "to denote previous reference." Here the article points out an object the identity of which is defined by some previous reference made to it in the context." Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 has just spoken of the coming of the Lord. This coming is defined by the words "our gathering together unto him," not as the second advent, but as the rapture. The Greek word rendered "and" can also be translated "even," and the translation reads, "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, even our gathering together unto him."
The article before apostasia defines that word by pointing to "the gathering together unto him" as that departure. This article determines the context which defines apostasia. The translators took the context of 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 as deciding the significance of the word, but they went too far afield, not grasping the function of the definite article preceding apostasia which points back to the rapture of 2 Thessalonians 2:1, not ahead to the refusal to believe the truth of 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12. The article is all-important here, as in many instances of its use in the Greek New Testament. In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, Paul had given these saints teaching on the rapture, and the Greek article here points to that which was well known to both the reader and the writer, which is another use of the Greek definite article. Thus, the departure of the church from earth to heaven must precede the great tribulation period [TDW: I would say, "must precede the (7-yr) tribulation period" to be more specific (for 'GREAT tribulation' refers only to the latter half of it, though I find that most ppl mis-label this also)]. And we have answered our questions again."
--Kenneth S Wuest, "The Rapture--Precisely When?", Bibliotheca Sacra, BSac 114:453 (Jan 57), p.60
[ www. galaxie . com/article/bsac114-453-05 ]
[end quoting]
Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon (1845) -
Pages 190 - 191 (pg 191 [right-hand side] middle column)
... for apostasia - "later form for apostasis";
... and for apostasis - "a standing away from, and so-- [...] 2. departure or removal from"
-- https://archive.org/details/greekenglishlexi00lidduoft/page/190/mode/2up
[apo stasis]
[re: 2Th2:3... CONTEXT determines just "WHAT KIND" of departure is meant; Here in THIS CONTEXT, it is not "a departure FROM MOSES" as is meant in its Acts 21:21 occurrence]
Pages 190 - 191 (pg 191 [right-hand side] middle column)
... for apostasia - "later form for apostasis";
... and for apostasis - "a standing away from, and so-- [...] 2. departure or removal from"
-- https://archive.org/details/greekenglishlexi00lidduoft/page/190/mode/2up
[apo stasis]
[re: 2Th2:3... CONTEXT determines just "WHAT KIND" of departure is meant; Here in THIS CONTEXT, it is not "a departure FROM MOSES" as is meant in its Acts 21:21 occurrence]
In 2Th2:3, it is accompanied by the definite article ('the')... "he apostasia / THE departure".
"the apostasia" or "the departure" must be a clearly identifiable event if it is to serve as a proof for the presence of the day of the Lord (Paul's point he is conveying in this passage--"THE DEPARTURE FIRST" before it can be truthfully stated that "the DOTL IS PRESENT")... not just the "apostasy" (as we define the word today) that has taken place all throughout the entire time the Church has existed on the earth since the first century (1Jn2:19, etc).
"the apostasia" or "the departure" must be a clearly identifiable event if it is to serve as a proof for the presence of the day of the Lord (Paul's point he is conveying in this passage--"THE DEPARTURE FIRST" before it can be truthfully stated that "the DOTL IS PRESENT")... not just the "apostasy" (as we define the word today) that has taken place all throughout the entire time the Church has existed on the earth since the first century (1Jn2:19, etc).
And speaking of "the definite article ['the']" (used here in 2Th2:3, but NOT accompanying the same word in its Acts 21:21 occurrence):
[quoting]
Winer's Greek Grammar -
Section XVIII
the article before nouns
1. When ὁ, ἡ, τό, stands before a noun as a true article, it indicates that the object is conceived as definite,2 either from its nature, or from the context, or by reference to a circle of ideas which is assumed to be familiar to the reader’s mind:3
[...]
The article thus refers to well-known facts, arrangements, or doctrines (A. 5:37, 21:38, H. 11:28, 1 C. 10:1, 10, 2 Th. 2:3, Jo. 1:21, 2:14, 18:3, Mt. 8:4, 12); [...]
[end quoting; bold and underline mine]
____________
Again, Paul did not only refer to the event / circumstances / associated things pertaining to our "SNATCH [G726 - rapture / caught up / harpazo]" in merely ONE VERSE (the one we're all familiar with: 1Th4:17... but something like EIGHT TIMES in these 2 epistles, using VARIOUS TERMS and PHRASES)
[quoting]
Winer's Greek Grammar -
Section XVIII
the article before nouns
1. When ὁ, ἡ, τό, stands before a noun as a true article, it indicates that the object is conceived as definite,2 either from its nature, or from the context, or by reference to a circle of ideas which is assumed to be familiar to the reader’s mind:3
[...]
The article thus refers to well-known facts, arrangements, or doctrines (A. 5:37, 21:38, H. 11:28, 1 C. 10:1, 10, 2 Th. 2:3, Jo. 1:21, 2:14, 18:3, Mt. 8:4, 12); [...]
[end quoting; bold and underline mine]
____________
Again, Paul did not only refer to the event / circumstances / associated things pertaining to our "SNATCH [G726 - rapture / caught up / harpazo]" in merely ONE VERSE (the one we're all familiar with: 1Th4:17... but something like EIGHT TIMES in these 2 epistles, using VARIOUS TERMS and PHRASES)
^ that little abbreviated word "esp." in your quote, means NOT EXCLUSIVELY SO!
No, it is an abbreviation for "especially".
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