The Falling Away - pre-trib rapture or ???

[ewq1938]

So we both see those that are asleep in Christ are in heaven and are not resurrected yet. Then we both see that Christ descends from heaven with a shout and the dead in Christ rise first, then we who are alive shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord.

The difference being you have those who are dead being resurrected in heaven, and I have them being resurrected on earth, then you have them being snatched down to the clouds to be with Christ, while I have them snatched up together with us to the clouds to be with Christ.

But you don't have anything showing how they went from to Earth. Also, this creates two raptures instead of one because living cannot precede dead so you would to show a rapture of dead happening first, then a second rapture of only the living and I don't believe scripture supports that.

The only thing I can say is that I cant think of any verses that talk about the saints in heaven leaving heaven to be with Christ,

I know of a verse:

1Th_4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Most people refer to our changed bodies as new sinless bodies, but I don't have too much of a problem as referring to them as changed bodies

I used changed bodies because that's language bible uses. The old body is changed for living but the dead get entirely new bodies. The result is same but the process differs.

 

[rayzor]

Zec 3:3 My bad not Aaron
Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I know of a verse:

1Th_4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Th4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again [G450 - anistémi ], even so [/ thus / in this manner] them also which..."



How was it (in what manner) did Jesus' body do the "rose again [G450 - anistémi ]" thing?

It involved the same body that was "buried," right? (though now having distinct abilities/capacities like being able to pass through walls/doors that were closed, etc)

And where did His body stand after He "rose again [G450 - anistémi ]"?

His body stood and moved about on the earth for much of the day on Firstfruit (His Resurrection Day), just before He then did the John 20:17 thing that He TOLD Mary Magdalene He was going to do (and TOLD HER to "GO... SAY UNTO My brethren..." about it).

This means that His BODY that had DIED was not left in the "tomb / grave" (so that He got a completely different one altogether. No.)...

... and that when He "rose again [G450 - anistémi ]" He did not bypass "earth" in order to instantly appear up in Heaven, but instead "stood again" (on the earth)... BEFORE He did the "ascend" thing He TOLD MM about Jn20:17 (even if it was just for a very SHORT time that He "stood again" on the earth following His "rose again [G450 - anistémi]--it was still entirely DISTINCT from the "I ASCEND" thing--Jn20:17).

= )

 

[Clayman]

But you don't have anything showing how they went from to Earth. Also, this creates two raptures instead of one because living cannot precede dead so you would to show a rapture of dead happening first, then a second rapture of only the living and I don't believe scripture supports that.






I know of a verse:

1Th_4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.






I used changed bodies because that's language bible uses. The old body is changed for living but the dead get entirely new bodies. The result is same but the process differs.

When we are caught up together with the resurrected dead, at the same time, shows we do not precede them or go first.


Resurrection literally means to stand up again, Jesus is the first fruits of the resurrection and is the pattern for the resurrection, that is coming out of the grave to stand up again and He stood up on the earth

Remember how I agreed with you on these verses, except that I will be a part of the catching up and in the army that comes with the Lord whether I am resurrected from the dead or raptured.

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Heres a verse to describe the resurrection of the saints, they are made to stand up again. all indications they follow the pattern of the Lord and are resurrected upon the earth, then ascend or are caught up to the Lord in the air, with us of course

Ezek 37.

The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry. And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest. Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them. Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army. Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

I will be a part of the catching up and in the army that comes with the Lord whether I am resurrected from the dead or raptured.

Precious friend, Many assume "they are in THE ARMY" that comes to the earth, at
The Second Coming. How can they be sure? Just a thought on Some Scriptures!:

Did you know about the ARMIES, Coming With CHRIST? Please notice:

(1) Rev_19:14 "And the ARMIES which were in heaven followed HIM

upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."​

(2) Rev_19:19 "And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth,

and their armies, gathered together to make war against HIM​

That sat on the horse, and against HIS ARMY!"​

(3a) WHY Is There Only "ONE army" left, when CHRIST "Gets to the earth?”

(3b) Is THIS the “ONE army” that was Remaining, to come ALL the way to earth?:

"When The Son of Man Shall Come In HIS Glory, and ALL ​

THE HOLY ANGELS With HIM, Then Shall HE Sit Upon The​

Throne Of HIS GLORY!" (Matthew_25:31)​

Conclusion: What took place Between (1) and (2) above? Was it this?:

Did ONE Of The "armies {The Body Of CHRIST} Get Assigned” THEIR:
................................ Heavenly HOPE positions?
(Colossians 1:5; 1 Corinthians 6:3, 15:38-49; 2 Corinthians 5:1-2)

(2 Timothy 2:15; Romans 16:25; Ephesians 1:3-9; Ephesians 3:9 =
Grace/Mystery fellowship {Romans – Philemon}, today?)

Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified!
God’s Simple Will!

 

[DavidTree]

Precious friend, Many assume "they are in THE ARMY" that comes to the earth, at
The Second Coming. How can they be sure? Just a thought on Some Scriptures!:

Did you know about the ARMIES, Coming With CHRIST? Please notice:

(1) Rev_19:14 "And the ARMIES which were in heaven followed HIM

upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."​

(2) Rev_19:19 "And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth,

and their armies, gathered together to make war against HIM​

That sat on the horse, and against HIS ARMY!"​

(3a) WHY Is There Only "ONE army" left, when CHRIST "Gets to the earth?”

(3b) Is THIS the “ONE army” that was Remaining, to come ALL the way to earth?:

"When The Son of Man Shall Come In HIS Glory, and ALL ​

THE HOLY ANGELS With HIM, Then Shall HE Sit Upon The​

Throne Of HIS GLORY!" (Matthew_25:31)​

Conclusion: What took place Between (1) and (2) above? Was it this?:

Did ONE Of The "armies {The Body Of CHRIST} Get Assigned” THEIR:
................................ Heavenly HOPE positions?
(Colossians 1:5; 1 Corinthians 6:3, 15:38-49; 2 Corinthians 5:1-2)

(2 Timothy 2:15; Romans 16:25; Ephesians 1:3-9; Ephesians 3:9 =
Grace/Mystery fellowship {Romans – Philemon}, today?)

Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified!
God’s Simple Will!

YES, the Armies Coming with Christ include the Saints who are waiting to be Resurrected who the LORD is bringing with HIM.
1 Thessalonians 4: 13-18

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord

No Resurrection until the LORD 's COMING = His Coming begins in Revelation 19 and the Resurrection is Rev ch 20

 

[ewq1938]

1Th4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again [G450 - anistémi ], even so [/ thus / in this manner] them also which..."



How was it (in what manner) did Jesus' body do the "rose again [G450 - anistémi ]" thing?

You are adding "in this manner". verse only is saying that died and was resurrected and so the dead in Christ will also die and be resurrected. It's not going to be the exact same situation and circumstances. The dead will not return to their old bodies and in fact most of those bodies are completely gone due to time and atmospheric conditions and I highly doubt any of them will retain scars they received in life.

And where did His body stand after He "rose again [G450 - anistémi ]"?

He was in a type of small cave that was used as a grave.

His body stood and moved about on the earth for much of the day on Firstfruit (His Resurrection Day), just before He then did the John 20:17 thing that He TOLD Mary Magdalene He was going to do (and TOLD HER to "GO... SAY UNTO My brethren..." about it).

This means that His BODY that had DIED was not left in the "tomb / grave" (so that He got a completely different one altogether. No.)...

Christ returned to his dead body, that body was brought back to life and was changed into a glorified body.
The dead in Christ are in heaven where the new body is and when it's time for resurrection they will enter those new bodies in heaven.

... and that when He "rose again [G450 - anistémi ]" He did not bypass "earth" in order to instantly appear up in Heaven, but instead "stood again" (on the earth)... BEFORE He did the "ascend" thing

Scripture describes him doing lots of things like eating fish and traveling to Bethany and doing so many things it couldn't even fit into a book.

 

[ewq1938]

When we are caught up together with the resurrected dead, at the same time, shows we do not precede them or go first.

Not preceding them means they are with Christ first. living and dead do not meet with Christ at the same time.

Resurrection literally means to stand up again, Jesus is the first fruits of the resurrection and is the pattern for the resurrection, that is coming out of the grave to stand up again and He stood up on the earth

Standing uop can also happen in heaven in a new body. It doesn't have to be upon Earth. Most of the dead in Rev 20 resurrect from places not related to standing on the ground of Earth yet they still did resurrect.

Heres a verse to describe the resurrection of the saints, they are made to stand up again. all indications they follow the pattern of the Lord and are resurrected upon the earth, then ascend or are caught up to the Lord in the air, with us of course

That's not the endtimes resurrection of dead in Christ. It's related to OT Israel only and it's only about people who died in a certain valley and many are described as just being out in open ground not in graves. Only some are said to come out of graves and this sounds like regular resurrection back to mortal life (Lazarus) rather than being risen as immortals.

 

[walknlight]

"something that is difficult or impossible to understand or explain. "

I clearly understand why Apostle Paul called this a "mystery"....

God Bless

 

[walknlight]

HI!

You are adding "in this manner".

You accuse this man falsely, and continue in it, stop.

He has not added anything, he is giving you the definiton IN CONTEXT, straight from the Greek.

Example:
1Th4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again [G450 - anistémi ], even so [/ thus / in this manner] them also which..."

"even so" G3779
Derivation: adverb from G3778;
Strong's: in this way (referring to what precedes or follows)
KJV: —after that, after (in) this manner, as, even (so), for all that, like(-wise), no more, on this fashion(-wise), so (in like manner), thus, what.

So where did he error? Or as the mantra goes "You are adding"
Adding what? a definition?

Pray for me as I pray for you...

 

[FreeGrace2]

It has been strongly suggested that the "falling away" as spoken by the Apostle Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 is the pre-trib rapture.
We who are His Body, as Belonging to Christ, must know the His answer from His Word so as not to be decieved.

When the Disciples asked our Lord Jesus Christ about His Return(the Second Coming) He gave this immediate Commandment & Warning.

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. - Matthew 24: 3-4

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thess 2:1-4

The Apostle Paul combines the clear warning of the Lord Jesus Christ in Matthew 24 with His Second Coming and the "Falling Away".

So is the "falling away" = the departure in the form of a pre-trib rapture or is it a "falling away" a departure from truth = the Gospel?

Human opinion alone on this important subject is not valid - Please confirm one way or the other with Scripture.

I make this Challenge for TRUTH = Prove it by the word of Two or Three Authoritative Witnesses = Matthew 18:16

Those who conclude 2 Thess 2:1-4 is about a pre-trib rapture simply haven't read v.3 accurately.

2 Thess 2-
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

It is true that "our being gathered to Him" refers to the gathering of living believers when Christ comes. However, they miss the fact that "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" is a reference to the Second Coming.

In v.3, "that day" refers back to the Second Coming in v.1. So the Second Coming "will not come" UNTIL the rebellion/falling away occurs AND the man of lawlessness IS REVEALED.

So, from this passage, what's the ORDER of things.

1. Christ returns to earth.
2. The gathering or rapture occurs.
3. These events "will NOT COME UNTIL" the rebellion/falling away occurs AND the antichrist/beast #1 is revealed.

So, those who claim this is about a pre-trib rapture are contradicted by this order.

A pre-trib rapture CANNOT occur UNTIL the rebellion/falling away occurs first PLUS the beast #1 or antichrist is revealed.

The man of lawlessness will be revealed IN the trib.

 

[DavidTree]

Those who conclude 2 Thess 2:1-4 is about a pre-trib rapture simply haven't read v.3 accurately.

2 Thess 2-
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

It is true that "our being gathered to Him" refers to the gathering of living believers when Christ comes. However, they miss the fact that "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" is a reference to the Second Coming.

In v.3, "that day" refers back to the Second Coming in v.1. So the Second Coming "will not come" UNTIL the rebellion/falling away occurs AND the man of lawlessness IS REVEALED.

So, from this passage, what's the ORDER of things.

1. Christ returns to earth.
2. The gathering or rapture occurs.
3. These events "will NOT COME UNTIL" the rebellion/falling away occurs AND the antichrist/beast #1 is revealed.

So, those who claim this is about a pre-trib rapture are contradicted by this order.

A pre-trib rapture CANNOT occur UNTIL the rebellion/falling away occurs first PLUS the beast #1 or antichrist is revealed.

The man of lawlessness will be revealed IN the trib.

EASY as 1,2,3 = just as you pointed out - Thank You

God's Word is a children's book - written for His Children.

1At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who then is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”
2Jesus invited a little child to stand among them. 3“Truly I tell you,” He said, “unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Simple as 1,2,3 = Matt 18: 1,2,3

 

[ewq1938]

HI!
1Th4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again [G450 - anistémi ], even so [/ thus / in this manner] them also which..."
"even so" G3779
Derivation: adverb from G3778;
Strong's: in this way (referring to what precedes or follows)
KJV: —after that, after (in) this manner, as, even (so), for all that, like(-wise), no more, on this fashion(-wise), so (in like manner), thus, what.
So where did he error? Or as the mantra goes "You are adding"
Adding what? a definition?

The green is Strong's definition. The red is translation choices found for this word in the bible. The translators chose "even so" (blue color) not the wording "after (in) this manner" because that is not what the text is saying because that is more specific than the actual context of "even so" which is more generic and fits passage more properly. The dead in Christ will not resurrect exactly Christ did. There are some differences. The text should not be manipulated as TDW consistently does to almost all texts they comment upon.

If that was a correct practice, then someone could claim this was a correct translation as well (it's not):

1Th4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, for all that them also which..."

The word was translated that way using those words elsewhere in NT but it doesn't fit the context of this verse. That's precisely why tampering with the text is unwise.

Not to mention the end of the verse has been cut off which is further error and confusion.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

The verse should not be tampered with and not be presented incomplete. Here Paul is simply implying that those who are dead will be alive and will come with Jesus when he returns.

 

[Clayman]

Not preceding them means they are with Christ first. living and dead do not meet with Christ at the same time.

Disagree, I think its talking about being changed into our immortal bodies, not preceding them means they are resurrected first then we are transformed/changed in the twinkling of an eye. Then we go to meet the Lord.

And with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first.
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1Thes 4:17

Standing uop can also happen in heaven in a new body. It doesn't have to be upon Earth. Most of the dead in Rev 20 resurrect from places not related to standing on the ground of Earth yet they still did resurrect.







That's not the endtimes resurrection of dead in Christ. It's related to OT Israel only and it's only about people who died in a certain valley and many are described as just being out in open ground not in graves. Only some are said to come out of graves and this sounds like regular resurrection back to mortal life (Lazarus) rather than being risen as immortals.

I believe the resurrection Rev 20 to be after Armageddon, Satan is already thrown into the bottomless pit, Judgment occurred, seems like the Lord has already made His return to earth, seems like another resurrection, of tribulation believers to me.

 

[Clayman]

We know that Enoch Eliyah one of the thiefs on the cross maybe Moses & Aaron went straight to heaven...makes me wonder why not the rest?

I don't really have view on Enoch and Elijah, I don't know the how and why they went to heaven.

I view the others of faith as going down to Sheol or Abrahams Bosom, when the Lord died He also went down there, and emptied the place out.

This is a brief glimpse of how I imagine or guess the Good news was preached to the faithful there, I have Died and washed away your sins forever, I have now made access into the Holy place, now you are no longer captives of sin, you are now free so come with me up into Heaven.

Eph 4:8-9

 

[ewq1938]

Disagree, I think its talking about being changed into our immortal bodies, not preceding them means they are resurrected first then we are transformed/changed in the twinkling of an eye.

I don't think context supports that:

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Two things are being taught here.

1. The dead in Christ will rise again because Christ did.
2. God will ensure the dead in Christ will be brought with Him (Christ) which proves they are with Christ before the rapture even takes place.


1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

This would be saying the living would not be changed nor raptured before the dead are resurrected and brought with Christ. Those two events must be considered because they are mentioned in verses 13-14. We can't ignore the bringing with part.


1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

And we know from verse 14 that these same people are already with Christ so they will be following him in this descent.


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This should be understand in this way:

1. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together
2. with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: (the former dead are already in the clouds)
3. and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I know it seems to say living and raptured with another group and the two groups go up to clouds but based on the earlier verses we can conclude that the above is actually what is being said. One group on Earth are gathered together and then brought upwards to meet another group already waiting in clouds. That group descended from heaven, Christ bringing the former dead with him, verse 14.

Isolated, verse 17 can be easily misunderstood but in the context of all the verses, we have a clearer picture of events.

 

[John146]

I don't think context supports that:

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Two things are being taught here.

1. The dead in Christ will rise again because Christ did.
2. God will ensure the dead in Christ will be brought with Him (Christ) which proves they are with Christ before the rapture even takes place.


1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

This would be saying the living would not be changed nor raptured before the dead are resurrected and brought with Christ. Those two events must be considered because they are mentioned in verses 13-14. We can't ignore the bringing with part.


1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

And we know from verse 14 that these same people are already with Christ so they will be following him in this descent.


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This should be understand in this way:

1. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together
2. with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: (the former dead are already in the clouds)
3. and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I know it seems to say living and raptured with another group and the two groups go up to clouds but based on the earlier verses we can conclude that the above is actually what is being said. One group on Earth are gathered together and then brought upwards to meet another group already waiting in clouds. That group descended from heaven, Christ bringing the former dead with him, verse 14.

Isolated, verse 17 can be easily misunderstood but in the context of all the verses, we have a clearer picture of events.

The Lord's bringing their souls back with Him. Their dead bodies will be resurrected. All bodies will be changed and caught up together to be with the Lord. This is the adoption, the redemption of the bodies of those in Christ.

 

[John146]

We know that Enoch Eliyah one of the thiefs on the cross maybe Moses & Aaron went straight to heaven...makes me wonder why not the rest?

Thief on the cross did not go directly to heaven, but paradise which was Abraham's bosom in the heart of the earth.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Liddell and Scott:

A defection, revolt, v.l. in D.H.7.1, J.Vit.10, Plu.Galb.1; esp. in religious sense, rebellion against God, apostasy, LXX Jo.22.22, 2 Ep.Th.2.3.


They specifically cite 2Th 2:3 as being a defection "in religious sense, rebellion against God".

if the church is meant to be here in its center

“Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭22:37-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

then apostasy might look Like this


“This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭3:1-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Thief on the cross did not go directly to heaven, but paradise which was Abraham's bosom in the heart of the earth.

the angels carry the dead down into the heart of the earth ? And those in hell look up at them in Abraham’s bosom ?

“And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom:

the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16:22-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it seems like the rich man is looking up to where Lazarus is far off having been carried away by the angels.

I would say the thief is probably among there folk wing redeemed by Jesus who is in heaven seated on his throne in his kingdom

“After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Just another view though it seems as if there is a kingdom in heaven that is active and there is a city prepared for those who go through the world d find the lord

I don’t think Abraham is in the heart of the earth I think he’s in the city God promised him of faith

“These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:13-14, 16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and the church is called to that place in Christ

“But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:22-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I bet the angels took him to that city where the spirits of just men are perfected by the blood of Christ Jesus