The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Status
Not open for further replies.
Dec 15, 2021
1,494
216
63
If you believe these statements, then you must believe Christians can lose their salvation during the tribulation.
I believe what is written as being GODS TRUTH. But then I don't follow any DOCTRINES that require me to believe something different. I don't THINK making void the words of God is EVER a good idea.

So do you see this as saying something different?

Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


It SEEMS very clear and straightforward to me. WHICH I will admit sets the tone for all the IF'S that some doctrines would like to remove.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,880
2,112
113
But NONE of that changes the facts that we aren't gathered unto the Lord until the Lords Day.
... and Paul explicitely states that "the day of the Lord" ARRIVES "exactly like [hosper]" the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:1-3]" that COMES UPON a woman...

...the ones JESUS SPOKE OF in His Olivet Discourse (the FIRST ONE BEING: Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 "A CERTAIN ONE [G5100 - tis - 'a certain one' BRINGING DECEPTION (2Th2:9a / 8a; Dan11:36-37 / 2Th2:4a [not at the 4b point in time, but 3.5yrs prior to that point]; Dan9:27a[26] / 1Jn2:18; Rev6:2; etc]"...

...which "BoBPs" are EQUIVALENT to the SEALS of Rev6 at the START of the (FUTURE) "7 YEAR PERIOD" (which Rev1:1 / 4:1 / 1:19c says, are "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" and which things FOLLOW the 1:19b "things WHICH ARE" which are NOT SAID *of THEM* to be "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]," by contrast);

...and Rev5:4 showing that a SEARCHING JUDGMENT has ALREADY TAKEN PLACE, per the "WAS FOUND" word (as was also used regarding Paul, in the latter chpts of Acts, when he was brought before their *human / earthly* BEMA)...;

...Paul had said he would be awarded "stephanos / crown" IN THAT DAY (NOT the day of his DEATH)... and "not to [him] ONLY" 1Tim4:8... which means there is NO ONE WEARING "CROWNS" *UNTIL* the BEMA of Christ has taken place[!]...

...which is what Rev5:4 is saying,

...which Rev4:4 is SHOWING as having already taken place...

...and what Rev5:9's words (they are saying), "hast redeemed US to God by Thy blood out-of EVERY kindred and tongue and people and nation" SHOWS to have taken place (i.e. at this point in the Revelation chronology; i.e. "our Rapture" has ALREADY TAKEN PLACE)...

... and this, BEFORE Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" by His opening the FIRST SEAL at the START of the "7 years" / at the ARRIVAL OF "the day of the Lord [EARTHLY time-period]" / the "IN THE NIGHT [EARTHLY time-period] / DARK / DARKNESS" / "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" (i.e. the SEALS) which will be followed by MANY MORE "BPs," unfolding upon the earth (during those "7 years")...;

...one can see precisely "7 YEARS / 2520 days" *between* Rev5:6 and Rev19... (bearing in mind that "kings go out to battle" at a VERY SPECIFIC TIME of the year, per Scripture elsewhere--think: Rev19 / 16:14-16 / Armageddon time-slot / Jesus' RETURN to the earth [FOR the earthly MK age to commence thereafter]);

IOW, the SEALS / BoBPs do NOT unfold upon the earth over the course of some 2000 years (NO!!)... they will commence YET FUTURE (to us) at the START of the "7 yr period" that immediately precedes and LEADS UP TO His Second Coming to the earth Rev19; It's NOT that Jesus is GOING AWAY [becoming USELESS, in your view] JUST AS THE TRIB YEARS START, it's that HE is STARTING the Trib years BY MEANS OF His "STANDING to JUDGE" / OPENING "SEAL #1" (the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL [EARTHLY time-period]" WITH its "MAN OF SIN [ IN HIS TIME ]"--it/the DOTL does NOT *ARRIVE* at the point in time of His Second Coming (to the earth) Rev19!! NO!
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
FreeGrace2 said:
1 Cor 15:23
2 Thess 2:1

Because the bible teaches there is just a single resurrection of the saved.

Matt 22:30, Luke 14:14, Acts 24:15.

Since these verses have been quoted many times on this thread, your claims are nothing but lies. Obviously.

And you haven't even tried to explain what ANY of these verses teach, other than what I believe they teach.
The patriarchs were seen walking the streets of Jerusalem.
As in "resurrected"
Please prove this claim with Scripture.

Jesus took them to heaven.
How does this equal receiving a glorified body? It doesn't. And since Jesus is THE "firstfruits", which is defined in Acts 26:23 as being the FIRST to be resurrected (all in spite of the many people brought back to life from the OT through Jesus' earthly ministry), NO ONE gets a glorified body BEFORE Jesus did. No one.

Firstfruits.
The obvious problem with pretribbers is trying to force some agricultural notion with the resurrection. Paul made no such link.

In 1 Cor 15:23, he used "firstfruits" to indicate that Jesus' resurrection was the "first production" of the resurrection., meaning Jesus was the FIRST to receive a glorified body. And in that verse, he very clearly said that all believers will receive their glorified bodies "when He comes". It really couldn't be any more clear.

But you guys go off the rails and come up with this 3 part resurrection, parallel to a harvest. No where in the Bible is the resurrection compared or equated with a harvest.

All verses regarding the resurrection of believers is in the SINGULAR, so believe it.

One harvest
3 parts
Resurrection ain't no harvest. That's just presumption.
 
Dec 15, 2021
1,494
216
63
.. and Paul explicitely states that "the day of the Lord" ARRIVES "exactly like [hosper]" the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:1-3]" that COMES UPON a woman...

But that isn't what 1 Th 5:1 says at all, is it? Concerning now the times and the seasons brothers no need you have to you to be written

there is nothing explicitly stated about a birth pang. I don't understand why you don't read what is written. You keep trying to make what is written fit into descriptions given to help us picture what is going on like they are the TRUTH and what is written is not. Its just like all this harvest stuff. Forget what the words tell us and use something not mentioned as the truth instead. I don't get it.

..the ones JESUS SPOKE OF in His Olivet Discourse (the FIRST ONE BEING: Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 "A CERTAIN ONE [G5100 - tis - 'a certain one' BRINGING DECEPTION (2Th2:9a / 8a; Dan11:36-37 / 2Th2:4a [not at the 4b point in time, but 3.5yrs prior to that point]; Dan9:27a[26] / 1Jn2:18; Rev6:2; etc]"...

Actually I am just going to need the questions without any of the references for all of them if you would indeed like the answers to them.

Could you write out what you are saying in plain English either before or after because this is like a puzzle I have to assemble to get to is. I will use this as reference as to what you are trying to say. So if this is a question please ask it again without all the references please
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
22,688
8,227
113
There is no such thing as a 'works based' Salvation. That is a man made up thing.

THERE has been NO CHRISTIAN 'under the law' EVER. NOT ONE. You probably couldn't even find a Christian today who knows all the LAWS and what they consisted of.

There has never been a Christian that wanted to build a temple and start killing animals for the forgiveness of sins. There are no Christians that have come out of 400 years of captivity who need to know how to run their own nation. CHRISTIANS follow the laws of the lands they live in so all of those laws don't apply either.

SO THIS WHOLE WORKS BASED whatever is just that, what ever to GIVE WORKS A BAD NAME AND TO LAY GUILT UPON THE EWES WHO KNOW NO BETTER.

Faith comes from hearing and hearing by the words of God. We COME to repentance and the GIFT OF SALVATION is given to us. IT IS THEREFORE IMPOSSIBLE TO WORK FOR IT IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM.

So the thing that good Christians should do, is QUIT SAYING THOSE WORDS, as they lead to WORKS somehow being put in a bad light and WORKING FOR GOD IS NOTHING BUT GOOD. IT IS ALL THAT WE TAKE WITH US. IT IS WHAT DETERMINES WHAT KIND OF VESSEL WE COULD BE. BEING A GOOD CHRISTIAN AND FOLLOWING THE COMMANDMENTS MAKES US MORE HOLY AND THERE IS ONLY GOOD THINGS THAT COME WITH THAT.

CHRISTIANS today are fully aware of the work CHRIST DID. What Christians today are not aware of is what that 'work' used to mean for us and how blessed we are to be living under GRACE.
If you have questions about this, start a thread, and I would discuss it in depth if you would like.
In this Church age, there is only one law.....a new law.
Rom 8:2
"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free of the law of sin and death".
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,880
2,112
113
But that isn't what 1 Th 5:1 says at all, is it?
there is nothing explicitly stated about a birth pang
I wrote: "1Th5:1-3"... yet you stop reading at verse 1. Why?


Paul uses the EXACT WORD (in the SINGULAR) which Jesus used IN THE PLURAL (Jesus' words being regarding "the beginning of birth PANGS"--Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8 / Lk21:8-11); Paul is referencing the "ARRIVAL" point in time (of those--it is NOT just "ONE and DONE" when it comes to "birth pangs"... but the INITIAL ONE does ARRIVE at a POINT IN TIME, certainly... [and it's NOT at Christ's SECOND COMING to the earth point in time [Rev19], but PRIOR TO that, and LEADING UP TO that point]);



Grasp the biblical definition of "the day of the Lord"
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
22,688
8,227
113
The body of Christ is made up of the many members who gather together in 'churches' to worship GOD.

The nation of Israel, is the land GOD gave to the 12 tribes.

The House of Israel is the 10 Northern tribes when the nation was divided, gone into captivity 200 yrs before by Assyrians then scattered to the world blinded to who they are. They are also know as the lost sheep who Christ came for and will not lose one of.

The House of Judah is the 2 Southern tribes gone into captivity by Babylonians. Then went back to build the temple under Cyrus (who God named) for Christs return.

The whole house of Israel is when referring to all the tribes

Jacob is also when referring to all the tribes

The land of Israel is where it is located.

Jerusalem is the place God married.

The church is made up of Jew and Gentile made one.
This business about the "10 lost tribes" is nonsense and heretical. Anna was of the tribe of Asher (Luke 2:36). Do your homework and you will find out why.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,880
2,112
113
We are told there will be no gathering until after the workings of Satan. That is what is written. That is what I believe. DO YOU?
That is not what Paul is conveying in 2Th2.

But one must biblically define what "[that] THE DAY OF THE LORD [is present / is already here]" MEANS, or one will not come to the correct conclusion of what Paul is actually conveying in this passage... just as you are incorrectly concluding.
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
2 thes 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

He comes at the pretrib rapture
So, this pretrib rapture is the "Second Coming", huh? Just pure sheer presumption.

Jesus comes to earth twice. The First Advent was as a baby and suffering servant. The Second Advent will be as King of kings, and Lord of lords.

Ha comes in rev 14:14
Summary verse only.

[QUORTE]He comes in rev 19 on horses WITH the saints.[/QUOTE]
This is the Second Advent.

Yes
If you leave off other verses IT APPEARS you are correct.
No verse yet has refuted what I have been saying.

You say he comes postrib.
Yes He does.
That is the Second Advent. You've got 3 or 4 Advents going on. Sheer presumption.

So you post verses that both camps use and AGREE ON.
I post verses NOT in the postribber workbook.
Could you please quote verses that prove a pretrib rapture/resurrecton? I still haven't seen any.

What I seen so far is just presumption from "harvest".
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,880
2,112
113
LETS START with 4:13 Thess Paul giving comfort about what happens when we die.
Disagree.

The understood question was, how will those believers who've DIED participate in the "COME UNITED-with HIM" thing (along with us, the "still-living / ALIVE" ones), since they are DEAD.

Paul is saying, BY THIS MEANS.

(a "SNATCH / CAUGHT UP" thing [FOR the "UNIONed-with Him" thing] will take place [for ALL of us] after they [the "DEAD IN Christ"] are first "resurrected ['to stand again' (on the earth, in their BODIES--up from their GRAVES)]")
Christ rose and so we rise and come back with HIM.
How are you defining "ROSE / RISE" here? From the dead (i.e. "resurrect [to stand again]") or "ASCEND [up into the AIR]"??

That is what is written. That is what I believe. DO YOU?
 
Dec 15, 2021
1,494
216
63
In this Church age, there is only one law.....a new law.
Rom 8:2
"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free of the law of sin and death".

No longer UNDER THE LAW OF sin and death, as we are UNDER GRACE.

Galatians 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

And this has to do with the 'works based salvation' how?
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
22,688
8,227
113
No longer UNDER THE LAW OF sin and death, as we are UNDER GRACE.

Galatians 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

And this has to do with the 'works based salvation' how?
Aaahhhhmmm.....It doesn't. :cautious:
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
22,688
8,227
113
But that isn't what 1 Th 5:1 says at all, is it? Concerning now the times and the seasons brothers no need you have to you to be written

there is nothing explicitly stated about a birth pang. I don't understand why you don't read what is written. You keep trying to make what is written fit into descriptions given to help us picture what is going on like they are the TRUTH and what is written is not. Its just like all this harvest stuff. Forget what the words tell us and use something not mentioned as the truth instead. I don't get it.




Actually I am just going to need the questions without any of the references for all of them if you would indeed like the answers to them.

Could you write out what you are saying in plain English either before or after because this is like a puzzle I have to assemble to get to is. I will use this as reference as to what you are trying to say. So if this is a question please ask it again without all the references please
Good grief man read 1Thes 5:3 "labor pains upon a pregnant woman". Birth pangs. It can't possibly be any more clear than that....
 
Dec 15, 2021
1,494
216
63
That is not what Paul is conveying in 2Th2.

But one must biblically define what "[that] THE DAY OF THE LORD [is present / is already here]" MEANS, or one will not come to the correct conclusion of what Paul is actually conveying in this passage... just as you are incorrectly concluding.
1Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.


WHY ARE WE BEING TOLD WHAT IS BEING SAID WHEN SUDDEN DESTRUCTION IS ABOUT TO COME UPON THEM? BECAUSE WE WILL BE HERE. NONE OF THIS INFORMATION WOULD BE GIVEN TO ANYONE WHO WOULD NOT BE HERE EXPERIENCING THIS STUFF.

IT MAKES NO SENSE TO TELL THOSE WHO WONT BE HERE WHAT TO WATCH OUT FOR.

YOU ARE MAKING GOD TO BE THE AUTHOR OF CONFUSION. WHICH person would ever come to faith KNOWING WHAT IS WRITTEN ISN'T EVER WHAT IS MEANT? HOW ARE THEY EVER TO COME TO KNOWLEDGE IF IT MAKES NO SENSE?

AND WHO DOES THE DESTRUCTION COME UPON? THEM. WHY THEM? BECAUSE IT DOESN'T COME UPON US. WHY DOESN'T IT COME UPON US? BECAUSE THE HOLY SPIRIT DWELLS WITHIN US. SEE HOW WE ARE NOT APPOINTED TO WRATH? SEE HOW THE BLOOD OF JESUS KEEPS US SAFE FROM THE WRATH OF GOD. AGAIN NO NEED TO GO TO HEAVEN AND SIT IT OUT.

DO NOT FEAR, GOD IS HERE. GOD EVEN HAD TO GIVE HIM A CROWN. IT ISN'T LIKE HE DOESN'T KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON.



4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

ANOTHER WARNING FOR NO REASON?

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

WHY ARE WE TOLD TO PUT ON ARMOR IF NOT GOING INTO BATTLE? WHY NOT A DRESS?
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

DOESN'T MATTER IF YOU DIE OR NOT AND PERSECUTION IS GOOD FOR US TO BE REFINED. GOD ISN'T GOING TO TAKE ANYONE AWAY FROM WHAT HE HAS HIMSELF SET UP TO MAKE US LESS COMBUSTIBLE.

SO HERE IS

THE DAY OF THE LORD

BEING SPOKEN OF IN THIS LETTER 1

WHAT DOES LETTER ONE SAY THE DAY OF THE LORD IS? WHEN CHRIST RETURNS AND THE DEAD ARE RAISED AND THE ALIVE AND REMAINING ARE CAUGHT UP.

AGREED?



WHAT ELSE ARE WE TOLD ABOUT THIS DAY OF THE LORD?

1Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.


WHAT DOES THE 2ND LETTER SAY ABOUT THIS DAY OF THE LORD?


2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

WHAT DID THE FIRST LETTER SAY THIS DAY WAS?

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the Brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
 
Dec 15, 2021
1,494
216
63
Good grief man read 1Thes 5:3 "labor pains upon a pregnant woman". Birth pangs. It can't possibly be any more clear than that....

DO YOU KNOW what happens when the pains start? THE BABY IS COMING. THEY AREN'T GOING TO STOP. NOTHING IS STOPPING THAT TRAIN.

1Thessalonians 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

WHEN YOU HEAR PEACE AND SAFETY coming from all the world around you and you have been witnessing supernatural signs and wonders KNOW FOR A FACT JESUS IS ABOUT TO SHOW UP. When you see those two witnesses in the street and the world is rejoicing KNOW FOR A FACT THE BIRTH OF A BRAND NEW AGE IS ABOUT TO TAKE PLACE

BECAUSE 'THE LORDS DAY' IS ABOUT TO BE BIRTHED INTO EXISTENCE WITH THE ANNILATION OF THIS AGE. HEAVEN IS COMING TO EARTH GOD HAS SPOKEN IT AND IT IS GOING TO HAPPEN.

THE ONLY WAY YOU ARE GETTING OUT OF THE TRIBULATION OF SATAN IS WITH DEATH.

Things like good grief tend to bring out the super serious side. This isn't a game.

ITS THE SAME AS IT HAS BEEN SINCE THE VERY BEGINNING. IT ISN'T GOING TO CHANGE. A 'NEW' CLUB WASN'T STARTED JUST A 'NEW PEOPLE' WERE offered the chance TO BE GRAFTED IN AND TO BECOME fellow HEIRS TO THE PROMISES.

Deuteronomy 30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;

18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.

19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto Him: for He is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
 
Dec 15, 2021
1,494
216
63
The understood question was, how will those believers who've DIED participate in the "COME UNITED-with HIM" thing (along with us, the "still-living / ALIVE" ones), since they are DEAD.
They ARENT DEAD. THEY ARE SAVED. THEY HAVE RECEIVED ETERNAL LIFE. NOT ETERNAL LIFE WITH A NAP INBETWEEN. MAN ADDS THE NAP NOT GOD

LET YOU AND I HAVE GOD GIVE US TRUTH


John 8:49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.

John 8:50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.

John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep My saying, he shall never see death.
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
Those who don't take the mark of the beast. The 'alive and remaining' when Christ returns. THE him that hath an ear to hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches. To HIM that overcome I will give.....

Most of the Christians will be worshipping Satan because they won't know it is Satan they will believe it is Christ returned. WHY?

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Why?
Amos 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.


2 Thessalonians 2:9 whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

The Lord Jesus Christ can not come pre trib rapture the church because of THE VERSE ABOVE. IF HE were to come for ANY REASON BEFORE THE WORKING OF SATAN His own words would BECOME LIES. And He can't lie.


11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (seen any of this lately?)

It isn't right/righteous to tell people that GOD changes for one generation and one generation only WHEN GOD SAYS HE DOESN'T CHANGE.

WE CAN'T HAVE DOCTRINES TAUGHT THAT MAKE VOID THE WORDS OF GOD.


Psalm 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.
7 He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head.

'thy enemies haven't been made his footstool' pre trib, they are all just starting to do their thing. SO NOW HE IS LEAVING?


THERE IS NO WAY GOD FORGOT TO MENTION IT EVERY SINGLE TIME THAT IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN MENTIONED.

THERE IS NO WAY 'THE BIGGEST MIRACLE BY FAR FAR FAR' HAS NOT ONE DETAIL but I can tell you what kind of fish I can eat and what one I can't because of its fins and scales. It is so incongruous it's hard to believe the theory still has life.

THERE WOULD BE NO WAY FOR ANYONE TO EVER COME TO FAITH AGAIN AFTER 2 BILLION PEOPLE DISAPPEARED. EVERYONE WOULD KNOW FOR SURE THERE IS A GOD AND WHEN SATAN TRIED TO PERFORM ANY SIGN OR WONDER IT WOULD BE MET WITH RIDICULE. WHO WOULD FOR A SECOND BELIEVE HE WAS CHRIST RETURNED AFTER THAT?

IT WOULD TAKE OVER 7 YEARS ALONE TO OVERCOME THE CHAOS THAT WOULD CAUSE ON THE PLANET. THINK ABOUT WHAT COVID DID IN JUST A FEW MONTHS. HAS ANYONE WHO THINKS PRE TRIB EVER THOUGHT IT THROUGH? CAUSE I HAVE AND IT CAUSES MORE CONFLICTS IN THE BIBLE THAN IN REALITY. HOW LONG WOULD IT TAKE TO CLEAN UP 2 BILLION BODIES. AND PLEASE DON'T SAY THAT 2 BILLION THE FLESH AND BLOOD EARTHY BODIES ARE GOING TO HEAVEN ALL AT ONCE.
It says all take the mark.
Your doctrine is off friend.

Read " overcomer" in rev.
They ( trib saints),overcame by martyrdom. All take the mark or die.

That alone makes a postrib rapture impossible.
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
DO YOU KNOW what happens when the pains start? THE BABY IS COMING. THEY AREN'T GOING TO STOP. NOTHING IS STOPPING THAT TRAIN.

1Thessalonians 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

WHEN YOU HEAR PEACE AND SAFETY coming from all the world around you and you have been witnessing supernatural signs and wonders KNOW FOR A FACT JESUS IS ABOUT TO SHOW UP. When you see those two witnesses in the street and the world is rejoicing KNOW FOR A FACT THE BIRTH OF A BRAND NEW AGE IS ABOUT TO TAKE PLACE

BECAUSE 'THE LORDS DAY' IS ABOUT TO BE BIRTHED INTO EXISTENCE WITH THE ANNILATION OF THIS AGE. HEAVEN IS COMING TO EARTH GOD HAS SPOKEN IT AND IT IS GOING TO HAPPEN.

THE ONLY WAY YOU ARE GETTING OUT OF THE TRIBULATION OF SATAN IS WITH DEATH.

Things like good grief tend to bring out the super serious side. This isn't a game.

ITS THE SAME AS IT HAS BEEN SINCE THE VERY BEGINNING. IT ISN'T GOING TO CHANGE. A 'NEW' CLUB WASN'T STARTED JUST A 'NEW PEOPLE' WERE offered the chance TO BE GRAFTED IN AND TO BECOME fellow HEIRS TO THE PROMISES.

Deuteronomy 30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;

18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.

19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto Him: for He is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
"""WHEN YOU HEAR PEACE AND SAFETY coming from all the world around you and you have been witnessing supernatural signs and wonders KNOW FOR A FACT JESUS IS ABOUT TO SHOW UP"""

You do realize that statement is firmly AGAINST postrib rapture.

The postrib world is a war zone.

Again another postrib impossibility you ironically point out.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,880
2,112
113
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction [G3639 olethros (NOT G622)] cometh upon them, as travail [SINGULAR "birth PANG"] upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
Understand a few things about this passage (for starters):


--"destruction" here is "G3639 - olethros " referring to RUINATION (like this word is used in 1Tim6:9, "which drown men in/into DESTRUCTION [G3639] ["ruination" IN THE HERE AND NOW] and perdition [G684 - apōleia ]" [note, these are two distinct things]);


--"and THEY shall NOT escape [SAME WORD used in Lk21:36 about those (IN and DURING the SAME future TRIB yrs) who WILL be enabled to "escape [actively FLEE OUT-OF each and every thing coming on the earth (DURING the Trib yrs) and to STAND BEFORE the SON OF MAN [His EARTHLY designation]" b/c these persons HEEDED this INSTRUCTION (whereas the "THEY" of 1Th5:3, being the same THEY that "HE SHALL SEND *them* GREAT DELUSION that *they* should believe the LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI"... *BECAUSE* they did not receive the love of the truth that they might be saved, it says, DO NOT!!)
But that LIE (and the GREAT DELUSION) does not merely take place on the "singular 24-day" of Christ's RETURN to the earth Rev19... NO!! This "RUINATION [G3639; 1Th5:3]" (for "they / them--particular ones, not 100% of the ppl) transpires over the course of SOME TIME (i.e. in / during the TRIB YRS);


--by contrast to the above, "and DESTROYED [G622 - apollymi ] ALL" (Lk17:27,29) DOES occur at His Second Coming to the earth (and MEANS "to put out of the way entirely" (i.e. they will NOT ENTER the MK age, but instead will DIE [to Hell / Hades]... and later experience the GWTj and being "CAST INTO" the LOF); but this "and DESTROYED [G622 - apollymi ] ALL" is NOT what Scripture states takes place in what 1Th5:3 is talking about (which is at the START of the "7 yrs" [G3639 - RUINATION in the here and now, at that time (TRIB yrs)] not at its ENDING-POINT [END of TRIB--G622 "destruction-to put out of the way ENTIRELY [i.e. DIE]");



--view all of the above in light of the biblical definition of "the day of the Lord" (it does NOT *ARRIVE* at the point of His Second Coming to the earth Rev19; but at SEAL #1 [Rev6:2] at the START of the "7 yrs")
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
No, I don't know what you mean by quickness. I know it would be relative to our understandings, so most likely you would believe something different than I do. In quickness. Is that in Gods time or ours? cause if you really think about it it hasn't even been TWO DAYS YET in Gods time. That would be 'in quickness' wouldn't it? In our time not so much. If the world were only 6000 years old in quickness would mean one thing but if the world were a billion years old then 2000 years would be in quickness. So, this would be one of those times that it is hard to discern what the truth is. But that seems to be the truth when it comes to all the 'pre trib' verses. Like KEPT FROM. Never once in Gods words is 'kept from' put in relation to transfiguration/translations and removal from earth and tribulation, but that doesn't change what pre trib tells us at all. Just like 'delivered'. How many times was Paul DELIVERED and never once was it to be taken to paradise. Neither when He was taken to paradise (a man I once knew?) was it to escape tribulation. Actually none of the translations had anything to do with it. Their work was done.

But NONE of that changes the facts that we aren't gathered unto the Lord until the Lords Day.

I do know the book of Revelation wasn't written to or for those who aren't reading it.

Why you are still using the '7 years' knowing the time was shortened? I know it was written that way under the OT BUT the NT tells us that that time has been changed. I think that would be really important. Big difference between 7 years and the 'one hour' wouldn't you say? I think that sort of 'peace' giving info should be shared more often when speaking on this subject.

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
"""And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."""

fits pretrib rapture percectly..

days are shortened for all 3 groups that go to heaven.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.