The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.
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I assume you mean Runningman's post at the bottom of Page 1 of this thread.
I addressed the basic point he was making there, in my Post #1486 (pg 75) ( https://christianchat.com/threads/t...at-happens-at-the-rapture.203234/post-4760418 ), as well as in Post #1482 (a longer post) where I'd stated at the bottom of that longer post:
"the day of the Lord does NOT *ARRIVE* at the point in time of His Second Coming (to the earth) Rev19!!"
(it commences PRIOR TO that point, per 1Thess5:1-3 speaking of the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that COMES UPON a woman... and Jesus speaking of SAME [/using the same word, in the plural, referring to events that precede and LEAD UP TO His "return" to the earth (in Rev19 / Matt24:29-31 / Isa27:[9],12-13)]).
Looks like it's "back to school" for you. lol
[all kidding aside, it is this MIS-defining of the phrase "the day of the Lord" (and when it ARRIVES) that is at root of much misunderstanding]
I addressed the basic point he was making there, in my Post #1486 (pg 75) ( https://christianchat.com/threads/t...at-happens-at-the-rapture.203234/post-4760418 ), as well as in Post #1482 (a longer post) where I'd stated at the bottom of that longer post:
"the day of the Lord does NOT *ARRIVE* at the point in time of His Second Coming (to the earth) Rev19!!"
(it commences PRIOR TO that point, per 1Thess5:1-3 speaking of the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that COMES UPON a woman... and Jesus speaking of SAME [/using the same word, in the plural, referring to events that precede and LEAD UP TO His "return" to the earth (in Rev19 / Matt24:29-31 / Isa27:[9],12-13)]).
Looks like it's "back to school" for you. lol
[all kidding aside, it is this MIS-defining of the phrase "the day of the Lord" (and when it ARRIVES) that is at root of much misunderstanding]
Correct . Darby is mentioned in the introduction. That is an assumption though is it not ? Extra-Biblical . I have no proof that Darby is the source of pre-tribulation doctrine . All I have is my KJV. And as many as are willing to discuss scripture without wearing me out. Up front Absolutely I don’t want a text heavy discussion on pre-trib theology. Let’s do the Keep it Simple Stupid thing K.I.S.S. and break down the timing of this event . Piece by piece. Using scripture. We can start wherever you like.
1 The Historic Authenticity of Pretribulationism
2 The Rise and Spread of Pretribulationism
3 The Rapture-Secret & Silent ?
4 Wrath, Tribulation , or Rapture ?
5 When will believers be Separated from Unbelievers ?
6 Will Christs Return be in Two Stages?
7 Coming “For” and Coming “With" the Saints
8 Terminology of the Second Coming
9 The Day of the Lord
10 Imminency and The Early Church
1 The Historic Authenticity of Pretribulationism
2 The Rise and Spread of Pretribulationism
3 The Rapture-Secret & Silent ?
4 Wrath, Tribulation , or Rapture ?
5 When will believers be Separated from Unbelievers ?
6 Will Christs Return be in Two Stages?
7 Coming “For” and Coming “With" the Saints
8 Terminology of the Second Coming
9 The Day of the Lord
10 Imminency and The Early Church
There is no word in the Bible called Rapture, first of all. Second, if EVERYONE is Raptured as you believe, what was God's purpose for the Earth? Question, if Adam and Eve had never sinned or rejected God, where would they be today, and where would their offspring be today? The Bible clearly states that the Garden of Eden was in the vicinity of Middle to North Africa. They were supposed to widen out and turn the whole Earth into a Paradise. So, again I ask you why you think everyone is going to disappear one day off the Earth and leave it abandoned. There is a scripture that alludes to a "group" of specific people that will be changed in a "twinkling of an eye" (1 Corinthians 15:52). Then it reads in Psalms 37:29 the righteous will live forever in the Earth. Revelation 21:3&4 it says "death will be no more" in the Earth once God takes back control of it. Obviously, it is talking about the Earth because that is the only place a human would be concerned with "death". A careful examination of the Bible will undue these wrong ideations.
There is no rapture. Nothing in the Bible says that the Earth is going to be abandoned and left desolate without human life. Psalms 37:29. There are a few chosen that will go to Heaven, but not everyone is anointed with that calling. Romans 18:16. Genesis 2:8-17 clearly points out that the Earth at one time was Paradise or the Garden of Eden in Middle or Northern Africa before Adam and Eve rebelled and ruined everything. God's intended purpose has not changed. So, in the beginning and the end it will be so again. The Earth will become a Paradise and home for all his righteous subjects. Revelation 21:3, 1 Corinthian 2:9 The only reason some Humans get Heavenly Life is because Jesus Christ made a covenant (Passover Meal) with his Apostles and Disciples as a gift to be with him in Heaven that will make up a Divine Council of the Kingdom of God. That new government will rule with Yeshua/Jesus in Heaven over the Earth ("Let your Kingdom Come), the Lord's Prayer.
I am aware of your posts in the decent position. However, you are not allowing yourself to properly consider scriptures.
Example; what does scripture mean where it says to the Philadelphia church........because you have a little faith I will keep you from the hour that shall come upon all the earth. That alone eliminates mid or post trib. elments....unless you can negate it's meaning and purpose.
Now please...take a minute and tell me what that means? There are many more like it to be answered....one at a time.
I am always mindful of scripture....some things are reserved for our father's knowledge only....and.....it shall be revealed in due time.
Best Book out there on endtime eschatology. Mike- drop scriptural reproof of pretribulationalism. You wil see things very clearly as intended. For those of you seeking the truth there are a few copies left on Amazon. Real Deal . No need to scoff after you read I guarantee you will be convinced no secret silent rapture of the church and no need study dispensationalism for countless hours . Jesus is returning and it’s going to be loud open and public.
Thanks for the "first response to the chat today"... I appreciate that. = ) (never any pressure for anyone to respond, just so you know )
I've been studying the Bible and eschatology since the mid-70s too, so what a coincidence. We have at least some things in common. = )
The other day, when you had first posted the title to that book you recommend, I went over to check it out at Amazon (I may even own a copy, who knows), but right away I saw a flaw in what the reviewer had explained that was part of the content of the book.
The reviewer wrote:
"He states, "I would like to comment on Matthew 24:36 ["of that day and hour knoweth no man"] in relationship to the issue of timing in separation between believers and unbelievers. This verse stresses that no man knows the day or the hour of the end of the age... These verses stand as a formidable defense against pretribulationism for the very reason that if the rapture was to occur seven years before the last day, then multitudes of people would be able to calculate the exact date of His return. All they would have to do is to count seven years from the day when millions of people mysteriously disappeared from the planet earth. This possibility, however, would be in clear violation of Christ's comments to the contrary." (Pg. 108-109)"
This point has been discussed many times here in these discussions, so just to make a point very briefly (which has been made)... the word "know" in this text is in the "perfect indicative" (and YES it is speaking of/in the CONTEXT of His Second Coming / RETURN to the earth at Rev19...[NOT regarding "our Rapture"])... so that this is NOT saying, "no one CAN EVER know" or "no one WILL EVER know" (nor, "it is FORBIDDEN to know," as some suggest)... no. Nothing at all like that.
After Jesus' resurrection / ascension / exaltation HE then "KNEW" (again had perfect knowledge with the Father)... and some 60 years later (in about 95ad) provided FURTHER INFORMATION *on that Subject* in "[The] Revelation of Jesus Christ WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [/unto Jesus] TO SHEW UNTO His servants things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (i.e. the "future" aspects of the Book--1:1 / 4:1 / 1:19c)... and that FURTHER INFORMATION is saturated with time-stamps and timing indicators and so forth... so that anyone finding themselves IN that future, specific, LIMITED time-period should indeed have a fairly good idea of "WHEN" He will RETURN, that is, IF they will HEED HIS WORD (or listen to those bringing it, during that time period). As we know, many will NOT heed His word (just as in the days of Noah--the example Jesus Himself had provided in His Olivet Discourse on that very Subject).
My apologies if this was too long and tedious. I tried my best. = )
Bottom line: the "PERFECT indicative" of the word "know" in Matthew 24:36 [and related passages] renders that point (made by the author of the book, explained in the quote above) invalid. It simply does not hold up under close scrutiny.
Therefore, I remain unconvinced that this book would be persuasive in changing my understanding of the Subject under discussion.
)I've been studying the Bible and eschatology since the mid-70s too, so what a coincidence. We have at least some things in common. = )
The other day, when you had first posted the title to that book you recommend, I went over to check it out at Amazon (I may even own a copy, who knows), but right away I saw a flaw in what the reviewer had explained that was part of the content of the book.
The reviewer wrote:
"He states, "I would like to comment on Matthew 24:36 ["of that day and hour knoweth no man"] in relationship to the issue of timing in separation between believers and unbelievers. This verse stresses that no man knows the day or the hour of the end of the age... These verses stand as a formidable defense against pretribulationism for the very reason that if the rapture was to occur seven years before the last day, then multitudes of people would be able to calculate the exact date of His return. All they would have to do is to count seven years from the day when millions of people mysteriously disappeared from the planet earth. This possibility, however, would be in clear violation of Christ's comments to the contrary." (Pg. 108-109)"
This point has been discussed many times here in these discussions, so just to make a point very briefly (which has been made)... the word "know" in this text is in the "perfect indicative" (and YES it is speaking of/in the CONTEXT of His Second Coming / RETURN to the earth at Rev19...[NOT regarding "our Rapture"])... so that this is NOT saying, "no one CAN EVER know" or "no one WILL EVER know" (nor, "it is FORBIDDEN to know," as some suggest)... no. Nothing at all like that.
After Jesus' resurrection / ascension / exaltation HE then "KNEW" (again had perfect knowledge with the Father)... and some 60 years later (in about 95ad) provided FURTHER INFORMATION *on that Subject* in "[The] Revelation of Jesus Christ WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [/unto Jesus] TO SHEW UNTO His servants things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (i.e. the "future" aspects of the Book--1:1 / 4:1 / 1:19c)... and that FURTHER INFORMATION is saturated with time-stamps and timing indicators and so forth... so that anyone finding themselves IN that future, specific, LIMITED time-period should indeed have a fairly good idea of "WHEN" He will RETURN, that is, IF they will HEED HIS WORD (or listen to those bringing it, during that time period). As we know, many will NOT heed His word (just as in the days of Noah--the example Jesus Himself had provided in His Olivet Discourse on that very Subject).
My apologies if this was too long and tedious. I tried my best. = )
Bottom line: the "PERFECT indicative" of the word "know" in Matthew 24:36 [and related passages] renders that point (made by the author of the book, explained in the quote above) invalid. It simply does not hold up under close scrutiny.
Therefore, I remain unconvinced that this book would be persuasive in changing my understanding of the Subject under discussion.
Thanks for the "first response to the chat today"... I appreciate that. = ) (never any pressure for anyone to respond, just so you know )
I've been studying the Bible and eschatology since the mid-70s too, so what a coincidence. We have at least some things in common. = )
The other day, when you had first posted the title to that book you recommend, I went over to check it out at Amazon (I may even own a copy, who knows), but right away I saw a flaw in what the reviewer had explained that was part of the content of the book.
The reviewer wrote:
"He states, "I would like to comment on Matthew 24:36 ["of that day and hour knoweth no man"] in relationship to the issue of timing in separation between believers and unbelievers. This verse stresses that no man knows the day or the hour of the end of the age... These verses stand as a formidable defense against pretribulationism for the very reason that if the rapture was to occur seven years before the last day, then multitudes of people would be able to calculate the exact date of His return. All they would have to do is to count seven years from the day when millions of people mysteriously disappeared from the planet earth. This possibility, however, would be in clear violation of Christ's comments to the contrary." (Pg. 108-109)"
This point has been discussed many times here in these discussions, so just to make a point very briefly (which has been made)... the word "know" in this text is in the "perfect indicative" (and YES it is speaking of/in the CONTEXT of His Second Coming / RETURN to the earth at Rev19...[NOT regarding "our Rapture"])... so that this is NOT saying, "no one CAN EVER know" or "no one WILL EVER know" (nor, "it is FORBIDDEN to know," as some suggest)... no. Nothing at all like that.
After Jesus' resurrection / ascension / exaltation HE then "KNEW" (again had perfect knowledge with the Father)... and some 60 years later (in about 95ad) provided FURTHER INFORMATION *on that Subject* in "[The] Revelation of Jesus Christ WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [/unto Jesus] TO SHEW UNTO His servants things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (i.e. the "future" aspects of the Book--1:1 / 4:1 / 1:19c)... and that FURTHER INFORMATION is saturated with time-stamps and timing indicators and so forth... so that anyone finding themselves IN that future, specific, LIMITED time-period should indeed have a fairly good idea of "WHEN" He will RETURN, that is, IF they will HEED HIS WORD (or listen to those bringing it, during that time period). As we know, many will NOT heed His word (just as in the days of Noah--the example Jesus Himself had provided in His Olivet Discourse on that very Subject).
My apologies if this was too long and tedious. I tried my best. = )
Bottom line: the "PERFECT indicative" of the word "know" in Matthew 24:36 [and related passages] renders that point (made by the author of the book, explained in the quote above) invalid. It simply does not hold up under close scrutiny.
Therefore, I remain unconvinced that this book would be persuasive in changing my understanding of the Subject under discussion.
)I've been studying the Bible and eschatology since the mid-70s too, so what a coincidence. We have at least some things in common. = )
The other day, when you had first posted the title to that book you recommend, I went over to check it out at Amazon (I may even own a copy, who knows), but right away I saw a flaw in what the reviewer had explained that was part of the content of the book.
The reviewer wrote:
"He states, "I would like to comment on Matthew 24:36 ["of that day and hour knoweth no man"] in relationship to the issue of timing in separation between believers and unbelievers. This verse stresses that no man knows the day or the hour of the end of the age... These verses stand as a formidable defense against pretribulationism for the very reason that if the rapture was to occur seven years before the last day, then multitudes of people would be able to calculate the exact date of His return. All they would have to do is to count seven years from the day when millions of people mysteriously disappeared from the planet earth. This possibility, however, would be in clear violation of Christ's comments to the contrary." (Pg. 108-109)"
This point has been discussed many times here in these discussions, so just to make a point very briefly (which has been made)... the word "know" in this text is in the "perfect indicative" (and YES it is speaking of/in the CONTEXT of His Second Coming / RETURN to the earth at Rev19...[NOT regarding "our Rapture"])... so that this is NOT saying, "no one CAN EVER know" or "no one WILL EVER know" (nor, "it is FORBIDDEN to know," as some suggest)... no. Nothing at all like that.
After Jesus' resurrection / ascension / exaltation HE then "KNEW" (again had perfect knowledge with the Father)... and some 60 years later (in about 95ad) provided FURTHER INFORMATION *on that Subject* in "[The] Revelation of Jesus Christ WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [/unto Jesus] TO SHEW UNTO His servants things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (i.e. the "future" aspects of the Book--1:1 / 4:1 / 1:19c)... and that FURTHER INFORMATION is saturated with time-stamps and timing indicators and so forth... so that anyone finding themselves IN that future, specific, LIMITED time-period should indeed have a fairly good idea of "WHEN" He will RETURN, that is, IF they will HEED HIS WORD (or listen to those bringing it, during that time period). As we know, many will NOT heed His word (just as in the days of Noah--the example Jesus Himself had provided in His Olivet Discourse on that very Subject).
My apologies if this was too long and tedious. I tried my best. = )
Bottom line: the "PERFECT indicative" of the word "know" in Matthew 24:36 [and related passages] renders that point (made by the author of the book, explained in the quote above) invalid. It simply does not hold up under close scrutiny.
Therefore, I remain unconvinced that this book would be persuasive in changing my understanding of the Subject under discussion.
Two points (to be as brief as possible) to consider:
1) in my Post #2534 (pg 127), for the readers' info, not that you have to turn back there... I'll quote it all here (I'd put):
Acts 22 -
6And it came to pass, that, as I [Paul] made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me. 7And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 8And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest. 9And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me. 10And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.
[...]
14And he [Ananias] said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth. 15For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard. 16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
[point being: it's certainly possible, as we see in this example regarding Paul, that those standing around will not hear what is NOT MEANT SPECIFICALLY FOR THEM; Also, 2Th2:1 states "and OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" (i.e. NO ONE ELSE will participate[!]... similarly to how Numbers 10:4, when speaking of the certain patterns of the blowing of the trumpet / trumpets were used for certain purposes, and v.4 states that when ONE is sounded, then the PRINCES, HEADS of the thousands of Israel shall gather UNTO THEE [/unto MOSES]"...did not pertain to all other persons, either... only the "PRINCES / HEADS" (see also chpt 1 [1:4,5,16] for the LISTING of the "24 names" joined up with tribal leaders, making "24 names" total, all together];
2) Paul in his TWO chpts of 2Th (chpts 1 & 2) is CONTRASTING the TWO disparate/OPPOSITE "BELIEFS" people WILL BE coming to FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (i.e. when they are IN THE TRIB)... and one of those is spelled out, and commonly acknowledged, in 2:10-12 where it says "[for this reason] God shall SEND TO THEM strong delusion THAT THEY should believe the LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI"... The reason this will even be possible is because the "noises" [we are discussing] associated with "OUR Rapture" will not have been discernible TO THEM (the certain unsaved persons being referenced here... not 100% of the ppl who will be existing on the earth at that time... FOLLOWING "our Rapture"); This [Paul's] CONTRASTING of the TWO OPPOSITE "beliefs" ppl WILL BE coming to (IN / DURING / WITHIN the Trib yrs) is not recognized by the "post-trib" viewpoint (one reason is b/c of what I'd stated earlier: the MIS-defining of the phrase "the day of the Lord" to INCORRECTLY be meaning: that which COMMENCES at the point in time of His Second Coming [to the earth Rev19]. It DOESN'T.)
Nice talking with you, riverhooks... you remind me a little of my friend (and member here) "randyk" (you have pretty much his same viewpoint... I'm very familiar with it.)
[the "point" made in the quote at top, is simply not convincing, for these and other reasons = ) ]
1) in my Post #2534 (pg 127), for the readers' info, not that you have to turn back there... I'll quote it all here (I'd put):
Acts 22 -
6And it came to pass, that, as I [Paul] made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me. 7And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 8And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest. 9And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me. 10And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.
[...]
14And he [Ananias] said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth. 15For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard. 16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
[point being: it's certainly possible, as we see in this example regarding Paul, that those standing around will not hear what is NOT MEANT SPECIFICALLY FOR THEM; Also, 2Th2:1 states "and OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" (i.e. NO ONE ELSE will participate[!]... similarly to how Numbers 10:4, when speaking of the certain patterns of the blowing of the trumpet / trumpets were used for certain purposes, and v.4 states that when ONE is sounded, then the PRINCES, HEADS of the thousands of Israel shall gather UNTO THEE [/unto MOSES]"...did not pertain to all other persons, either... only the "PRINCES / HEADS" (see also chpt 1 [1:4,5,16] for the LISTING of the "24 names" joined up with tribal leaders, making "24 names" total, all together];
2) Paul in his TWO chpts of 2Th (chpts 1 & 2) is CONTRASTING the TWO disparate/OPPOSITE "BELIEFS" people WILL BE coming to FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (i.e. when they are IN THE TRIB)... and one of those is spelled out, and commonly acknowledged, in 2:10-12 where it says "[for this reason] God shall SEND TO THEM strong delusion THAT THEY should believe the LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI"... The reason this will even be possible is because the "noises" [we are discussing] associated with "OUR Rapture" will not have been discernible TO THEM (the certain unsaved persons being referenced here... not 100% of the ppl who will be existing on the earth at that time... FOLLOWING "our Rapture"); This [Paul's] CONTRASTING of the TWO OPPOSITE "beliefs" ppl WILL BE coming to (IN / DURING / WITHIN the Trib yrs) is not recognized by the "post-trib" viewpoint (one reason is b/c of what I'd stated earlier: the MIS-defining of the phrase "the day of the Lord" to INCORRECTLY be meaning: that which COMMENCES at the point in time of His Second Coming [to the earth Rev19]. It DOESN'T.)
Nice talking with you, riverhooks... you remind me a little of my friend (and member here) "randyk" (you have pretty much his same viewpoint... I'm very familiar with it.)
[the "point" made in the quote at top, is simply not convincing, for these and other reasons = ) ]
I can tell I'm tired... I meant to point out that there are "24 names" TOTAL (12 princes / heads joined up with each of the 12 tribal leaders... I hope y'all know what I meant... zzzzz)
... and here, I did not intend to imply that some or any of those persons remaining on the earth will HEAR anything... I do not believe they will (for reasons I explained). Some WILL come to "believe" the TRUTH (as shown in Paul's CONTRASTING of the TWO OPPOSITE "beliefs" ppl WILL BE coming to, at that time)... not because they AUDIBLY HEARD something (is how I understand what is being said in this text / context)
... and here, I did not intend to imply that some or any of those persons remaining on the earth will HEAR anything... I do not believe they will (for reasons I explained). Some WILL come to "believe" the TRUTH (as shown in Paul's CONTRASTING of the TWO OPPOSITE "beliefs" ppl WILL BE coming to, at that time)... not because they AUDIBLY HEARD something (is how I understand what is being said in this text / context)
Simple really, I BELIEVE WHAT IS WRITTEN.
WHY YOU WOULD THINK I BELIEVE 'NO BODY' IS BEYOND ME. Never would I say NO BODY. NEVER.
I have never not one time ever made any statement implying we go anywhere without a body. NEVER. I HAVE ALSO NEVER NOT ONCE EVER STATED I BELIEVED WE HAD MORE THAN 2, (speculated once about more than at some point but never set forth as a belief) I sure hope that clears up any misconception you may have.
1 Corinthians 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
So I DON'T know of a DIFFERENT WAY TO READ this.
I personally don't read "EXCEPT THE FIRST TIME or NOT UNTIL MY SOUL RETURNS WITH JESUS AND WE ALL DO IT TOGETHER, or NOT UNTIL a LAST DAY".
ALL I see is IT RAISED IN GLORY.
So AS STRANGE AS THAT SEEMS, I BELIEVE it means: IT IS RAISED IN GLORY
Now if you would KINDLY point me to the SCHOLARs who SAY: IT IS RAISED IN AN INTERIM BODY I will gladly go to that verse in Scripture and say OH MY GOD, THERE IT IS. HOW FOOLISH OF ME TO HAVE BELIEVED IT WAS RAISED IN GLORY. THAT IS MY BELIEF NO LONGER. I HAVE LOTS OF PEOPLE I NEED TO APOLOGIZE TO,
UNTIL that time I AM GOING TO HAVE TO BELIEVE 'IT IS RAISED IN GLORY', NO MATTER WHAT MY BELIEFS CURRENTLY ARE, 'it is raised in glory' IS DEFINITELY ONE OF THEM.
So I think, I must really be missing something if someone else is so sure of something else so I go AND SEEK THE TRUTH. And I read this and for a SECOND think uh oh AND thank GOD at the same time
1 Corinthians 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
THERE IT IS, then I see SOWEST but a bare grain. NOTHING ABOUT 'RAISED'.
So back to ' I AM RAISED IN GLORY. ' AGAIN.
STILL may chance of wheat or some other grain, that could be it. Maybe that is 'an interim' body. BUT IT DOESN'T SAY ANYTHING ABOUT not being raised in glory THERE EITHER.
1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased Him, and to every seed His own body.
I HAVEN'T GOTTEN TO 'AN INTERIM BODY'
BUT I HAVE DEFINITELY ASCERTAINED RAISED IN A BODY FOR SURE.
I DON'T KNOW how to say:
GOD, this doesn't fit with what I now believe. MY whole belief that SAYS I AM RAISED UP IN A DIFFERENT WAY, so I am just going to skip over this. Hope you don't mind. I hope this doesn't take me off the narrow path you have told me I need to be on. I hope this one little mistake doesn't change EVERY SINGLE THING THAT COME THEREAFTER.
Throughout Scripture, wherever the phrases "the day of the Lord" [chpt 2] and "IN THAT DAY" [chpt 1] are used in the SAME CONTEXT [close proximity], they are both speaking of the SAME TIME PERIOD. [this provides an EVIDENCE that it is a time-period which also PRECEDES and LEADS UP TO His "return" (to the earth, Rev19)]
I explained earlier that Paul's wording in 1Th5:1-3 agrees with Jesus' words in His Olivet Discourse (about "the beginning of birth PANGS"--Paul uses the SINGULAR of this word in his describing "the day of the Lord's" ARRIVAL point in time)... and "the beginning of birth PANGS" are equivalent the SEALS of Rev6 at the START of the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period that Rev1:1 [/4:1 / 1:19c] speaks of (and what we know as the "7 years"--so it is these that "kick off" the earthy-located time-period known as "the day of the Lord" [something like 26 versions show this to be the wording in 2Th2:2, where Paul is speaking of the false claimants' "purporting THAT the day of the Lord IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE [PERFECT indicative]." It wasn't. And Paul goes on to explain WHY that *seemingly REASONABLE* claim [*reasonable* b/c of 1:4] was in fact NOT TRUE, and will "NOT" be true until ONE THING *FIRST* [and TWO evidences are IN PLAY])
I explained earlier that Paul's wording in 1Th5:1-3 agrees with Jesus' words in His Olivet Discourse (about "the beginning of birth PANGS"--Paul uses the SINGULAR of this word in his describing "the day of the Lord's" ARRIVAL point in time)... and "the beginning of birth PANGS" are equivalent the SEALS of Rev6 at the START of the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period that Rev1:1 [/4:1 / 1:19c] speaks of (and what we know as the "7 years"--so it is these that "kick off" the earthy-located time-period known as "the day of the Lord" [something like 26 versions show this to be the wording in 2Th2:2, where Paul is speaking of the false claimants' "purporting THAT the day of the Lord IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE [PERFECT indicative]." It wasn't. And Paul goes on to explain WHY that *seemingly REASONABLE* claim [*reasonable* b/c of 1:4] was in fact NOT TRUE, and will "NOT" be true until ONE THING *FIRST* [and TWO evidences are IN PLAY])
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I just want to throw out some truth here. First of all we are dust and return to dust. Absent in the body is present with the lord. In the presence of the Lord there is fullness of joy. When we die our spirits go to be with the Lord . He that is joined to the Lord is one spirit . Ergo Nothing shall ever separate us from the love of God which is in Jesus our Lord. Amen ? While we look not on things temporal but eternal . When you go to pray Hebrews 12:22-24 But ye are come to mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God , the heavenly Jerusalem , and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general ssembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to the spirits of just men made perfect , and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling , that speaketh better things than that of able. Jesus will return this also known as the Day of God . Pretribulationists need to take the authority of Gods Word for they will be waiting for the wrong event namely a secret silent rapture while In truth The Lord returns in Glory , The spirits of just men made perfect are joined to new glorified bodies . They rise from the dead and are translated to meet the Lord in the air living saints go next and are changed in an instant as well meeting the Lord in the air and escorting him on his descent. What precedes this is The Lord descending with a Shout the Voice of the Archangel and the Trump of God . To make a long story short . God is coming Back the Crucified Risen Ascended God is coming back . I personally am fed up with the phoneness of it all with regards to all this wayward theology. There is no mention of the word “ rapture” in the Bible . Correct. It is the catching up of the living believers at the first resurrection at the coming of The Lord. I have heard the reasonings .Personally I am not out to convince you to use the Word of God as authoritative but I can assure you that if you do not. You will believe in fantasy. “ For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine “ Christ will return not first secretly for the church and then return with the church . God will return on The Last Day as in Book of John . Pretty simple Christ will return in flaming fire taking vengence on those that know not God and obey not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. The church is intended to be the pillar and ground of the truth . You will have to see if you are willing to accept that you are not going to some early out event . The rapture is at the first resurrection when Jesus comes back .
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