The Gate to Life

[EmethAlethia]

Let me know what you think:

I.) Mat 7:13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the path is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it. 14 "For the gate is small, and afflicted is the path leading to life, and few are those who find it.
Parallel passage:

II.) 2Th 2:10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they might believe lies, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth but took pleasure in wickedness. 13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

1.) The “Gate to Life” is the “Very narrow” (Stenos – can’t turn to the right or left) belief/set of beliefs that lead to salvation. (See 2Th. 2:13 above) and this verse as well:

III.) Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

2.) This makes every “other belief/belief set” the exceedingly wide gate leading to destruction.

3.) There are 10,000 different non-Christian belief groups in thi0s world and 45,000 different “Christian” belief groups. We know all who die as non-Christians are lost and headed for hell.

IV.) Joh 14:6 Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me.

4.) And we know almost all people who believe they are “Christians” are also headed for hell.

V.) Mat 7:22 “Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23 “And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

5.) The same word “Many” is used in Mat. 7:13 (Pg. 1: I) and Mat. 7:22 (Pg. 1: V) describing those who believe Jesus is their Lord God and Savior and even possess the exact same signs and wonders the true Christians of the 1st century possessed.

VI.) 2Co 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

6.) What are the characteristics of those who will eventually be saved, and those who will not see salvation, and will “Perish” in 2Th. 2:10-13 (Pg. 1: II) Can those “perishing” (Same word in 2Th. 2:10 (Pg. 1: II) and 2Co. 4:3-4 above) even see, let alone believe, the true gospel?

Two questions:

a.) The “Path of Affliction” leading to Life: What ongoing habitual “Path” Mat. 7:14, (Pg. 1: I) or habit and way of life, views, practices, beliefs, “Fruits”, … does each person in the 10,000 non-Christian, and 45,000 different “Christian, belief groups need to be on to get “from” their erroneous beliefs “To” the “Gate to life” / belief in the truth?

b.) The “Spacious path” leading to destruction: What ongoing habitual “Path” Mat. 7:13 (Pg. 1: I), or habit and way of life, views, practices, beliefs, “Fruits”, … does each person in the 10,000 non-Christian, and 45,000 different “Christian, belief groups have that locks them into holding fast to their erroneous beliefs “as” truth, and keeps them from getting to the path leading to life? Does 2Th. 2:11 (Page 1 II.) explain how the vast masses of lost “Christians” who are headed for hell have the original signs and wonders the true Christians of the 1st century possessed in Mat. 7:22-23. (pg. 1: V)

VII.) Mat 7:15 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 “You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 “So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 “A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 “Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 “So then, you will know them by their fruits.

c.) These two completely different paths either result in habitually altering/changing their beliefs, getting them closer, and closer, to the truth, or they harden people into the beliefs they love. These two “Paths” produce two completely different sets of ongoing habitual “Fruits” in keeping with Jesus’ “warning” as to how to determine who is headed for eventual salvation and who is headed for eventual agony in hell. Mat. 7:15-20 (Pg. 2: VII)

8.) Since the vast masses of “Christianity”, the “Many” cannot even see,2Co. 4:3-4 (Pg. 2: VI) let alone believe, the true gospel, what are the odds the gospels almost all “Christian” churches teach are true? Gal. 1:6-10

VII.) 2Co 10:12 For we are not bold to class or compare ourselves with some of those who commend themselves; but when they measure themselves by themselves and compare themselves with themselves, they are without understanding.

9.) Because of God’s deluding influence on all the people who love what they “want to believe” “as” truth, 2Th. 2:10-11 (Pg. 1: II) every person in all the 10,000 non-Christian and 45,000 “Christian” belief groups knows they love truth and have the truth when it comes to their core beliefs.

a.) So how do all the people in all of those lost belief groups evaluate whether others both love truth and possess the truth? How do most churches evaluate whether a potential member is suitable for membership in their congregation?

b.) Since everyone in every non-Christian and “Christian” belief groups evaluates who loves truth and who believes the truth based on alignment with their own beliefs, what are the odds everyone in the world loves truth, and believes the truth?

c.) What does anyone, or any church/belief group “lack any understanding at all of” if they use this standard for evaluating salvation/love of the truth/belief in the truth?

10.) The lost Christians in Mat. 7:14(pg. 1: 1)/Mat. 7:22-23 (pg. 1: V)

a.) Cannot even see the true gospel 2Co. 4:3-4 (Pg. 2: VI), let alone believe, the true gospel, no matter how hard they look, because:

b.) They are “Perishing” 2Th. 2:10 (Pg. 1: II).

c.) They also receive a deluding influence, from God Himself, to believe lies are truth, and the truth is lies 2Th. 2:11 (Pg. 1: II)

d.) This locks them into their beliefs and also locks them in for judgment. 2Th. 2:12 (Pg. 1: II), Mat. 7:22-23 (pg. 1: V)

e.) This ongoing habitual “Path”, resulting in these specific “Fruits” / ongoing, habit and way of life, beliefs, habits, actions, …, proves they love what they “want to believe” “as” truth, and not truth.

f.) Since this is the case for almost all people who believe they are Christians, what is the only hope any of the lost, who all know they love truth and believe the truth, has to get to the “Path of affliction” leading to the exceedingly narrow gate leading to life and be saved … eventually?

11.) The “Fruits” of the lost:

a.) They know their core beliefs are truth.

i.) Because of this they know all opposing beliefs are lies.

1. Because all opposing beliefs are lies, their eyes and ears are closed to ever seriously considering altering any of their beliefs. Noone ever seriously considers exchanging what they know is truth for what they know is lies.

2. If you share with them that they are on the path leading to destruction and have the ongoing “Fruits” of those who believe they are true Christians, but are lost, you will see the responses in Mat. 7:6, (In violation of Mat. 7:1-5) and not the ongoing habitual responses in Mat. 7:7-12/Luk. 11:9-13/1Th. 5:21 (Present tense indicating ongoing, habitual, never ceasing knocking, seeking, asking, proving all things over, and over, and over again, always holding fast to what is being proven good/true, and not to any of their beliefs) Note what those who are on “THIS” path, and have these “Ongoing Fruits” are promised to eventually receive in Luk. 11:13.)

 

[ResidentAlien]

"But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ." 2 Corinthians 11:3

 

[Dino246]

Let me know what you think:

9.) Because of God’s deluding influence on all the people who love what they “want to believe” “as” truth, 2Th. 2:10-11 (Pg. 1: II) every person in all the 10,000 non-Christian and 45,000 “Christian” belief groups knows they love truth and have the truth when it comes to their core beliefs.

I think you are repeating things that you heard or read somewhere and have absolutely no evidence to support them. There aren't 45,000 "Christian" belief groups. I very much doubt there are more than about 200 different non-Christian belief systems.

Either find evidence, or stop repeating mindless blather.

 

[EmethAlethia]

I think you are repeating things that you heard or read somewhere and have absolutely no evidence to support them. There aren't 45,000 "Christian" belief groups. I very much doubt there are more than about 200 different non-Christian belief systems.

Either find evidence, or stop repeating mindless blather.

Google Search

As requested

 

[EmethAlethia]

I think you are repeating things that you heard or read somewhere and have absolutely no evidence to support them. There aren't 45,000 "Christian" belief groups. I very much doubt there are more than about 200 different non-Christian belief systems.

Either find evidence, or stop repeating mindless blather.

Google Search

You wanted it, you got it.

 

[GWH]

I.) Mat 7:13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the path is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it. 14 "For the gate is small, and afflicted is the path leading to life, and few are those who find it.
Parallel passage:

II.) 2Th 2:10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they might believe lies, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth but took pleasure in wickedness. 13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

1.) The “Gate to Life” is the “Very narrow” (Stenos – can’t turn to the right or left) belief/set of beliefs that lead to salvation. (See 2Th. 2:13 above) and this verse as well:

III.) Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

2.) This makes every “other belief/belief set” the exceedingly wide gate leading to destruction.

3.) There are 10,000 different non-Christian belief groups in thi0s world and 45,000 different “Christian” belief groups. We know all who die as non-Christians are lost and headed for hell.

IV.) Joh 14:6 Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me.

4.) And we know almost all people who believe they are “Christians” are also headed for hell.

V.) Mat 7:22 “Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23 “And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

5.) The same word “Many” is used in Mat. 7:13 (Pg. 1: I) and Mat. 7:22 (Pg. 1: V) describing those who believe Jesus is their Lord God and Savior and even possess the exact same signs and wonders the true Christians of the 1st century possessed.

VI.) 2Co 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

6.) What are the characteristics of those who will eventually be saved, and those who will not see salvation, and will “Perish” in 2Th. 2:10-13 (Pg. 1: II) Can those “perishing” (Same word in 2Th. 2:10 (Pg. 1: II) and 2Co. 4:3-4 above) even see, let alone believe, the true gospel?

I think you are astute to connect Matt. 7:13 with 2Thes. 2:10.
IOW, there is only one Way to be saved, so the challenge is understanding how souls unaware of the NT Gospel (Eph. 1:13) may be saved. Did the HS indwell them also, even though it was not revealed to them? Rom. 8:9 indicates "yes".

Regarding the different “Christian” belief groups, the key is the apostrophes. Because there is only one Way, there can be only one true Christian faith/creed. Any differences must be merely variations of the one theme.

Yes, those who are not saved go to hell, which is where ultimate justice is attained before wicked souls are annihilated per John 17:12, Rom. 9:22, Gal. 6:8, Phil. 3:19, 2Thes. 1:9, 2Pet. 3:7 & Rev. 20:13-14.


Re "And we know almost all people who believe they are “Christians” are also headed for hell.": Not sure why you think this, because "many" in Matt. 7:22 does not mean "most". However, it is true that some people who claim to believe in Christ do not really accept his Lordship, which is manifested by the fruit of refusing to apply his teachings (cf. Matt. 7:15-20).

Re 2Cor. 4:3, souls cannot blame anyone other than themselves for choosing to believe the god of this world.

Re "So how do all the people in all of those lost belief groups evaluate whether others both love truth and possess the truth?": The only way per Scripture is indicated in Eph. 4:11-15 and 2Tim. 3:15-17, which is to love truth so much that one is willing to amend his former "own" beliefs and "own" new beliefs.

Re "what are the odds everyone in the world loves truth, and believes the truth?": The odds are 100% that not everyone loves truth, but for any particular person we must keep in mind the following possibilities:

No one achieves moral perfection in this life (Phil. 3:12), but no one who lacks divine love will reap eternal life with God (Gal. 6:7-8). Thus, a person who claims to be godly but who is behaving in an ungodly (unloving, untruthful) manner may be in one of the following categories:

a. a normally loving person observed during a rare moment when he/she acted uncharacteristically (Phil. 3:12-16),
b. an immature Believer, who is making progress–you should have known him/her a year ago! (1Cor. 3:1-3, Eph. 4:11-15)
c. a truthseeker who has not yet learned the correct interpretation of God’s Word (1Cor. 6:9-11, Eph. 5:8-9), or
d. a pseudo-Christian (Matt. 7:21, 1John 2:19), who may affirm morality while rejecting its divine rationale.
e. an apostate or heretic (1John 2:19, Heb. 6:4-6), who once believed but became blasphemous or foolish and ship-wrecked their faith (1Tim. 1:19-20).

Sinners can overcome selfishness only by becoming one with Christ via faith in Him/God as Lord and thereby sharing His goodness because of union with His/God’s Holy Spirit. This spiritual union is denoted by references to those who have saving faith as children of God the Father (Rom. 8:14-16). This is why Christianity is a relationship with God motivated by gratitude for God’s grace (Psa. 100, Eph. 2:4-8) rather than a legalistic religion of working to merit God’s mercy because of fear of punishment.

The evidence of saving faith or satisfying GRFS is working faith, love or helping humanity (John 13:35). Disciples of Jesus (or Believers) tend to love and help others, not by virtue of their own goodness, but because they are moved or motivated by the loving Spirit of the Lord. Christians love everyone by reflecting God’s love (Matt. 5:44&48, 1Tim. 2:3-4, Rom. 5:5-8 & 1John 4:7-19). Humans can never become good enough to earn or merit salvation as a reward for right behavior. A person cannot be good by doing good. Those who try to attain heaven by imitating Christ-like behavior without accepting Christ’s Lordship and atonement do not merely fall short (Rom. 3:23) but actually go in the opposite direction (Gal. 5:4), so we should cooperate with God’s Way.

Someone who does not hunger and thirst after righteousness (Matt. 5:6) and LGW (Psa. 119:9) needs to reevaluate the sincerity of his/her profession of faith in the Lord. As Paul says (in 2Cor. 13:5, Gal. 6:1), “Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith.”

 

[Soyeong]

Let me know what you think:

I.) Mat 7:13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the path is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it. 14 "For the gate is small, and afflicted is the path leading to life, and few are those who find it.
Parallel passage:

II.) 2Th 2:10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they might believe lies, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth but took pleasure in wickedness. 13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

1.) The “Gate to Life” is the “Very narrow” (Stenos – can’t turn to the right or left) belief/set of beliefs that lead to salvation. (See 2Th. 2:13 above) and this verse as well:

III.) Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

2.) This makes every “other belief/belief set” the exceedingly wide gate leading to destruction.

3.) There are 10,000 different non-Christian belief groups in thi0s world and 45,000 different “Christian” belief groups. We know all who die as non-Christians are lost and headed for hell.

IV.) Joh 14:6 Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me.

4.) And we know almost all people who believe they are “Christians” are also headed for hell.

V.) Mat 7:22 “Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23 “And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

5.) The same word “Many” is used in Mat. 7:13 (Pg. 1: I) and Mat. 7:22 (Pg. 1: V) describing those who believe Jesus is their Lord God and Savior and even possess the exact same signs and wonders the true Christians of the 1st century possessed.

VI.) 2Co 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

6.) What are the characteristics of those who will eventually be saved, and those who will not see salvation, and will “Perish” in 2Th. 2:10-13 (Pg. 1: II) Can those “perishing” (Same word in 2Th. 2:10 (Pg. 1: II) and 2Co. 4:3-4 above) even see, let alone believe, the true gospel?

Two questions:

The Hebrew word “yada” refers to intimate relationships/knowledge gained by experience, such as with Genesis 4:1 where Adam knew (yada) Eve, she conceived, and gave birth to Cain. God’s way is the way to know (yada) Him and Jesus by having the experience of embodying His character traits, which is the narrow way to eternal life (John 17:3). For example, in Genesis 18:19, God knew (yada) Abraham that he would teach his children and those of His household to walk in His way by being doers of righteousness and justice that the Lord might bring to him all that He has promised. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know (yada) Him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the law is to graciously teach us how to experience an intimate relationship with God and Jesus by walking in His way, which is His gift of eternal life.

To know God is to know truth. An arrow flies true when it hits its mark, our mark is to walk in God’s way, and God’s law is truth (Psalms 119:142) because it was given to teach us how to walk in God’s way (1 Kings 2:1-3) while sin is missing the mark, sin is what is contrary to God’s character traits, and sin is the transgression of God’s law (1 John 3:4). The Spirit has the role of leading us in truth (John 16:13) and of leading us to obey God’s law (Ezekiel 36:26-27) because God’s character traits are the fruits of the Spirit. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), which he embodied through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to God’s law, so he is the way, the truth, and the life, and the way to know the Father (John 14:6-11).

The vast majority of the large number of denominations have much more to do with local autonomy than to do with differences in doctrine.

 

[EmethAlethia]

I think you are astute to connect Matt. 7:13 with 2Thes. 2:10.
IOW, there is only one Way to be saved, so the challenge is understanding how souls unaware of the NT Gospel (Eph. 1:13) may be saved. Did the HS indwell them also, even though it was not revealed to them? Rom. 8:9 indicates "yes".

We have God's continuous ongoing seeking of those who received a love of the truth in Joh. 4:23-24 and God stating that those who stay in the process of continuously seeking, knocking, asking, proving all things over and over again, holding fast to what is being proven good/true will eventually receive the Holy Spirit. Mat. 7:7-12/Luk. 11:9-13(13)

Regarding the different “Christian” belief groups, the key is the apostrophes. Because there is only one Way, there can be only one true Christian faith/creed. Any differences must be merely variations of the one theme.

Yes, those who are not saved go to hell, which is where ultimate justice is attained before wicked souls are annihilated per John 17:12, Rom. 9:22, Gal. 6:8, Phil. 3:19, 2Thes. 1:9, 2Pet. 3:7 & Rev. 20:13-14.

How ever long heaven lasts for believers, hell lasts for the lost:

Mat 25:46 "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
​

The EXACT same word is used twice in the same sentance.

Re "And we know almost all people who believe they are “Christians” are also headed for hell.": Not sure why you think this, because "many" in Matt. 7:22 does not mean "most".

Based on the fact that almost all people who believe they are Christians have stopped seeking, knocking and asking because they believe they have found the truth have had it opened to them, and believe they have received, God's promise to get them the Holy Spirit doesn't apply Mat. 7:7-12/Luk. 11:9-13(13)

Next, the gate to life is the one singular faith in the truth that saves. The "Path" that will get absolutely everyone to that "One, Single Faith that Saves", is the ongoing habitual seeking out of all possible arguments against one's current beliefs, and the ongoing objective examination of absolutely everything that applies with a willingness to alter any/all of your beliefs to fit what is being proven good/true.

Since most people's beliefs, Christian or not, are pretty much set in stone to the point they are no longer looking, as, if your beliefs are unquestionably true, all opposing beliefs are, just as unquestionably lies, no one will ever seriously consider exchanging truth for lies.

Eyes and ears are closed for almost everyone. Especially within Christianity. Also, almost everyone who believes they are "Christian" evaluates the salvation of themselves and others based on the alignment of their beliefs with their own. Every non-Christian belief group and every Christian belief group I am aware of evaluates the salvation of others based on their alignment with the group's core beliefs, not based on the "Fruits" Jesus warns true Christians to evaluate based on. And everyone in the world passes their one test of both loving truth and possessing the truth when it comes to their core beliefs. But God says those doing so have no understanding of truth or how to evaluate it at all 2Co. 10:12.

There are a couple dozen more "Fruits" that I almost never see God says are always present in true conversions.

Re "So how do all the people in all of those lost belief groups evaluate whether others both love truth and possess the truth?": The only way per Scripture is indicated in Eph. 4:11-15 and 2Tim. 3:15-17, which is to love truth so much that one is willing to amend his former "own" beliefs and "own" new beliefs.

There's the thing. We are told by God that evaluating salvation based on the alignment with our own beliefs. proves we have no understanding at all. Every person in the world evaluates that way, and everyone, using that standard always proves they love truth and possess the truth when it comes to their own beliefs. It's a completely worthless evaluation standard. True Christians are "WARNED" by Christ to evaluate based on "Ongoing Fruits' listed in scripture, NEVER beliefs.

Sorry, you can't trust my beliefs, I sure don't. I keep testing, I keep examining what opponents share, comparing it to everything else in the scriptures on each topic. My beliefs are still changing. I'm still discovering how things fit after I've gone through it all 500 times. It's too late to agree with me. I've changed my mind. LOL
Things like 1Pe. 2:2-3, 2Co. 7:9-11, 2Co. 13:5-6(But not evaluating based on alignment of beliefs. Those who judge by their beliefs cannot obey this command, and failure to obey means, "Indeed you fail the test." It's another present tense, ongoing never ceasing evaluation of yourself and others, by "Fruits", thing. There are dozens of these. And, if you don't know what they are, and what they mean, it's highly unlikely you will obey them.

... Thus, a person who claims to be godly but who is behaving in an ungodly (unloving, untruthful) manner may be in one of the following categories:

I agree with the categories, with one change, anyone who became a Christian is a child of God, and if that "child" refuses to judge himself correctly, chooses to go "off the rails", so to speak, judgments like 1Co. 5:5 / 1CO. 11:29-32 ALWAYS occur. Heb. 12:6-8

... The evidence of saving faith or satisfying GRFS is working faith, love or helping humanity (John 13:35). Disciples of Jesus (or Believers) tend to love and help others, not by virtue of their own goodness, but because they are moved or motivated by the loving Spirit of the Lord...

Yep another ongoing habitual "Fruit".

Someone who does not hunger and thirst after righteousness (Matt. 5:6) and LGW (Psa. 119:9) needs to reevaluate the sincerity of his/her profession of faith in the Lord. As Paul says (in 2Cor. 13:5, Gal. 6:1), “Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith.”

AMEN!

 

[GWH]

We have God's continuous ongoing seeking of those who received a love of the truth in Joh. 4:23-24 and God stating that those who stay in the process of continuously seeking, knocking, asking, proving all things over and over again, holding fast to what is being proven good/true will eventually receive the Holy Spirit. Mat. 7:7-12/Luk. 11:9-13(13)

How ever long heaven lasts for believers, hell lasts for the lost:

Mat 25:46 "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
​

The EXACT same word is used twice in the same sentance.

Based on the fact that almost all people who believe they are Christians have stopped seeking, knocking and asking because they believe they have found the truth have had it opened to them, and believe they have received, God's promise to get them the Holy Spirit doesn't apply Mat. 7:7-12/Luk. 11:9-13(13)

Next, the gate to life is the one singular faith in the truth that saves. The "Path" that will get absolutely everyone to that "One, Single Faith that Saves", is the ongoing habitual seeking out of all possible arguments against one's current beliefs, and the ongoing objective examination of absolutely everything that applies with a willingness to alter any/all of your beliefs to fit what is being proven good/true.

Since most people's beliefs, Christian or not, are pretty much set in stone to the point they are no longer looking, as, if your beliefs are unquestionably true, all opposing beliefs are, just as unquestionably lies, no one will ever seriously consider exchanging truth for lies.

Eyes and ears are closed for almost everyone. Especially within Christianity. Also, almost everyone who believes they are "Christian" evaluates the salvation of themselves and others based on the alignment of their beliefs with their own. Every non-Christian belief group and every Christian belief group I am aware of evaluates the salvation of others based on their alignment with the group's core beliefs, not based on the "Fruits" Jesus warns true Christians to evaluate based on. And everyone in the world passes their one test of both loving truth and possessing the truth when it comes to their core beliefs. But God says those doing so have no understanding of truth or how to evaluate it at all 2Co. 10:12.

There are a couple dozen more "Fruits" that I almost never see God says are always present in true conversions.

There's the thing. We are told by God that evaluating salvation based on the alignment with our own beliefs. proves we have no understanding at all. Every person in the world evaluates that way, and everyone, using that standard always proves they love truth and possess the truth when it comes to their own beliefs. It's a completely worthless evaluation standard. True Christians are "WARNED" by Christ to evaluate based on "Ongoing Fruits' listed in scripture, NEVER beliefs.

Sorry, you can't trust my beliefs, I sure don't. I keep testing, I keep examining what opponents share, comparing it to everything else in the scriptures on each topic. My beliefs are still changing. I'm still discovering how things fit after I've gone through it all 500 times. It's too late to agree with me. I've changed my mind. LOL
Things like 1Pe. 2:2-3, 2Co. 7:9-11, 2Co. 13:5-6(But not evaluating based on alignment of beliefs. Those who judge by their beliefs cannot obey this command, and failure to obey means, "Indeed you fail the test." It's another present tense, ongoing never ceasing evaluation of yourself and others, by "Fruits", thing. There are dozens of these. And, if you don't know what they are, and what they mean, it's highly unlikely you will obey them.


I agree with the categories, with one change, anyone who became a Christian is a child of God, and if that "child" refuses to judge himself correctly, chooses to go "off the rails", so to speak, judgments like 1Co. 5:5 / 1CO. 11:29-32 ALWAYS occur. Heb. 12:6-8

Yep another ongoing habitual "Fruit".

AMEN!

We know God is truth and love, so those who love truth have received God's HS (John 4:23-24),
and God continues to convict souls of sin as long as it is "Today" or until they die (Heb. 3:7-11).
Those who receive the HS before his indwelling presence was revealed in the NT will eventually
learn that truth by holding fast to what was already revealed (Phil. 3:12-16).

On Judgment Day those who were on the Way to heaven will arrive there and remain for eternity,
while those who ignored God's calling will reap what they sowed on earth in hell before being destroyed
per John 17:12, Rom. 9:22, Gal. 6:8, Phil. 3:19, 2Thes. 1:9, 2Pet. 3:7 & Rev. 20:13-14. Matt. 25:46 must be
harmonized with these Scriptures. Only someone whose sin was infinite would experience eternal suffering.

Those who sought truth and found Jesus as Lord will continue to cooperate with His loving HS more and more
as they learn GW in the NT. Yes, this will motivate them to continue seeking, hungering and thirsting for becoming completely righteous, and because they lack Christ's infallibility this will necessitate considering arguments against
their beliefs with the goal of arriving at an ever fuller understanding of the Gospel/Truth. And yes, this will mean a willingness to alter any beliefs, especially those that are heretical rather than good/true.

Anyone whose beliefs are set in stone to the point they are no longer teachable are NOT walking by faith but instead pretending to have papal infallibility. Questioning one's opinions by comparing them with other options is called
dialectical hermeneutics or harmonizing truth (1Thes. 5:21).

Again, we cannot judge whose eyes and ears are closed, although those who ignore vast swaths of Scripture are likely candidates. Our main concern should be to watch ourselves (Gal. 6:1, 2Cor. 13:5, Matt. 7:5), and yes, the test is based on loving fruit. The problem is not alignment with our own beliefs but rather not being willing to be realigned with GW (2Thes. 2:10).
Testing means verifying, not distrusting. What opponents share also needs verification per Scripture, as you noted.

My beliefs also are still changing, although at this point after 50 years of learning I am fine-tuning rather than starting from scratch. Adding point #6 to the Creed was the most major adjustment made recently.

 

[EmethAlethia]

We know God is truth and love, so those who love truth have received God's HS (John 4:23-24),
and God continues to convict souls of sin as long as it is "Today" or until they die (Heb. 3:7-11).
Those who receive the HS before his indwelling presence was revealed in the NT will eventually
learn that truth by holding fast to what was already revealed (Phil. 3:12-16).

On Judgment Day those who were on the Way to heaven will arrive there and remain for eternity,
while those who ignored God's calling will reap what they sowed on earth in hell before being destroyed
per John 17:12, Rom. 9:22, Gal. 6:8, Phil. 3:19, 2Thes. 1:9, 2Pet. 3:7 & Rev. 20:13-14. Matt. 25:46 must be
harmonized with these Scriptures. Only someone whose sin was infinite would experience eternal suffering.

Well, ... I get that you want to believe the lost are annihilated or "Destroyed", i.e. gone without consciousness, ... but ...

2Th 1:9 And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Even in this passage you mentioned, the "Destruction" lasts just as long as "eternity" in heaven lasts. It's not a once and completed thing. It's ongoing.

Eternal Fire, Eternal Life, ... however long heaven lasts, and the people in it, the same is true of those in hell. I get "wanting" to believe differently, ... but the meaning of the words, and their being repeated ... requires, if I want to hold to a consistent meaning of words ... even in the same sentence, that I can't do that.

Heb 6:2 of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.

Eternal life, eternal judgment, eternal destruction, eternal fire, eternal kingdom, eternal inheritance, eternal spirit, eternal dominion, ... lots more. Shorten the time of any, you are required to shorten all of them. So you pick how long God's dominion will be. How long the fires of hell will burn, how long our inheritance will last. Pick a meaning and stick to it.

Again, we cannot judge whose eyes and ears are closed, although those who ignore vast swaths of Scripture are likely candidates.

Well, after holding ourselves to the exact same standards when others share their pearls, and what they consider to be holy with us, which I GREATLY appreciate in you, by the way, we are commanded to judge the responses of everyone else we share with based on the standards of Mat. 7:6. If they get angry as a result of what we share, or just plain ignore it, or refuse to discuss, using logic and reason, the scriptures, "In context", holding to a consistent meaning of words and root words, ... and won't even deal with the issues we bring up, ... we are commanded to stop sharing. Remember ...

2Th 2:11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,

This is God's work, hardening them into what they "want to believe" "as" truth, for this exact purpose ...

2Th 2:12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

If we refuse to judge people based on their ongoing fruits / responses, ... we are in direct disobedience to God, AND we are fighting against what He is doing. Fighting against God is not really something I would want to do ... Plus it does put you on the wrong side, and not the winning one.

According to scripture, true Christians are habitually judging the salvation of themselves and others based on "Fruits", "Responses", "Path", ... and never based on beliefs. 2Co. 10:12

2Co 13:5 Test yourselves, whether you are in the faith; prove your own selves. Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you ... unless you fail the test? 6 But I trust you will know that we do not fail the test.

This passage is present tense. Never ceasing ongoing examination of yourself and others to see if their claims of having saving faith, or at least heading in that direction, "In the process, so to speak". Paul judges himself, and those with him in verse 6. He judges the salvation of others in 2Co. 11:13-15 Those judging by beliefs can't obey this ongoing command. Yep. Everyone has the same beliefs as yesterday. Yep. same as the day before. Yep, same as the day before that. Yep, same as last year. Yep, same as 20 years ago... Judging by beliefs is ludicrous. 2Co. 10:12 but every "True" Christian is "Warned" by Christ Himself to be evaluating the salvation of themselves and others by their ongoing "Fruits". Mat. 7:15-20

I judge closed eyes and ears every single day. In these posts I encourage people to correct what I am stating. I share and I WANT, even long for people to give logical reasonable, rational reasons, using scripture without adding, subtracting, or distorting the meaning of God's word to align with their beliefs. I can't correct my incorrect beliefs without people like you. I NEED YOU! You deal with the arguments I present. You actually go through the scriptures. You consider what is said using logic and reason. You do not trample what is shared under foot.

I JUDGE YOU! Every word, every thought, everything I see and hear, every word I speak, every thought, I judge. Do I make mistakes? All the time. Do I twist scriptures in a attempt to make them align with my current beliefs? More than likely in a number of places, but I am unaware of them right now or I'd be correcting them.

My beliefs also are still changing, although at this point after 50 years of learning I am fine-tuning rather than starting from scratch. Adding point #6 to the Creed was the most major adjustment made recently.

Yeah, I get it. Amazingly, some major insights keep on popping up altering, substantially, my understanding of how everything fits together so beautifully. I'm going on 43 years as a believer, although my dedicated truth seeking is going on 53 years. But yes, the adjustments stop when I'm dead. Who knows they may last for eternity.

 

[rewriter]

The Hebrew word “yada” refers to intimate relationships/knowledge gained by experience, such as with Genesis 4:1 where Adam knew (yada) Eve, she conceived, and gave birth to Cain. God’s way is the way to know (yada) Him and Jesus by having the experience of embodying His character traits, which is the narrow way to eternal life (John 17:3). For example, in Genesis 18:19, God knew (yada) Abraham that he would teach his children and those of His household to walk in His way by being doers of righteousness and justice that the Lord might bring to him all that He has promised. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know (yada) Him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the law is to graciously teach us how to experience an intimate relationship with God and Jesus by walking in His way, which is His gift of eternal life.

To know God is to know truth. An arrow flies true when it hits its mark, our mark is to walk in God’s way, and God’s law is truth (Psalms 119:142) because it was given to teach us how to walk in God’s way (1 Kings 2:1-3) while sin is missing the mark, sin is what is contrary to God’s character traits, and sin is the transgression of God’s law (1 John 3:4). The Spirit has the role of leading us in truth (John 16:13) and of leading us to obey God’s law (Ezekiel 36:26-27) because God’s character traits are the fruits of the Spirit. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), which he embodied through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to God’s law, so he is the way, the truth, and the life, and the way to know the Father (John 14:6-11).

The vast majority of the large number of denominations have much more to do with local autonomy than to do with differences in doctrine.

Very true, there have been many denominations divided by the specific language used rather than actual doctrine. One is in this country and the other is in a neighboring country with a different language, hence two denominations even though they share the exact same doctrines.

 

[GWH]

Well, ... I get that you want to believe the lost are annihilated or "Destroyed", i.e. gone without consciousness, ... but ...

2Th 1:9 And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Even in this passage you mentioned, the "Destruction" lasts just as long as "eternity" in heaven lasts. It's not a once and completed thing. It's ongoing.

Eternal Fire, Eternal Life, ... however long heaven lasts, and the people in it, the same is true of those in hell. I get "wanting" to believe differently, ... but the meaning of the words, and their being repeated ... requires, if I want to hold to a consistent meaning of words ... even in the same sentence, that I can't do that.

Heb 6:2 of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.

Eternal life, eternal judgment, eternal destruction, eternal fire, eternal kingdom, eternal inheritance, eternal spirit, eternal dominion, ... lots more. Shorten the time of any, you are required to shorten all of them. So you pick how long God's dominion will be. How long the fires of hell will burn, how long our inheritance will last. Pick a meaning and stick to it.

Well, after holding ourselves to the exact same standards when others share their pearls, and what they consider to be holy with us, which I GREATLY appreciate in you, by the way, we are commanded to judge the responses of everyone else we share with based on the standards of Mat. 7:6. If they get angry as a result of what we share, or just plain ignore it, or refuse to discuss, using logic and reason, the scriptures, "In context", holding to a consistent meaning of words and root words, ... and won't even deal with the issues we bring up, ... we are commanded to stop sharing. Remember ...

2Th 2:11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,

This is God's work, hardening them into what they "want to believe" "as" truth, for this exact purpose ...

2Th 2:12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

If we refuse to judge people based on their ongoing fruits / responses, ... we are in direct disobedience to God, AND we are fighting against what He is doing. Fighting against God is not really something I would want to do ... Plus it does put you on the wrong side, and not the winning one.

According to scripture, true Christians are habitually judging the salvation of themselves and others based on "Fruits", "Responses", "Path", ... and never based on beliefs. 2Co. 10:12

2Co 13:5 Test yourselves, whether you are in the faith; prove your own selves. Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you ... unless you fail the test? 6 But I trust you will know that we do not fail the test.

This passage is present tense. Never ceasing ongoing examination of yourself and others to see if their claims of having saving faith, or at least heading in that direction, "In the process, so to speak". Paul judges himself, and those with him in verse 6. He judges the salvation of others in 2Co. 11:13-15 Those judging by beliefs can't obey this ongoing command. Yep. Everyone has the same beliefs as yesterday. Yep. same as the day before. Yep, same as the day before that. Yep, same as last year. Yep, same as 20 years ago... Judging by beliefs is ludicrous. 2Co. 10:12 but every "True" Christian is "Warned" by Christ Himself to be evaluating the salvation of themselves and others by their ongoing "Fruits". Mat. 7:15-20

I judge closed eyes and ears every single day. In these posts I encourage people to correct what I am stating. I share and I WANT, even long for people to give logical reasonable, rational reasons, using scripture without adding, subtracting, or distorting the meaning of God's word to align with their beliefs. I can't correct my incorrect beliefs without people like you. I NEED YOU! You deal with the arguments I present. You actually go through the scriptures. You consider what is said using logic and reason. You do not trample what is shared under foot.

I JUDGE YOU! Every word, every thought, everything I see and hear, every word I speak, every thought, I judge. Do I make mistakes? All the time. Do I twist scriptures in a attempt to make them align with my current beliefs? More than likely in a number of places, but I am unaware of them right now or I'd be correcting them.


Yeah, I get it. Amazingly, some major insights keep on popping up altering, substantially, my understanding of how everything fits together so beautifully. I'm going on 43 years as a believer, although my dedicated truth seeking is going on 53 years. But yes, the adjustments stop when I'm dead. Who knows they may last for eternity.

I am on my phone and so will be brief. Annihilation refers to being destroyed forever AFTER justice is done.
How long achieving justice takes depends on what is needed in order for a sinner to reap what he sowed.
Yes, we should invite loving reproof rather than become angry and defensive.
Woe to those with callous hearts!

 

[EmethAlethia]

I am on my phone and so will be brief. Annihilation refers to being destroyed forever AFTER justice is done.
How long achieving justice takes depends on what is needed in order for a sinner to reap what he sowed.
Yes, we should invite loving reproof rather than become angry and defensive.
Woe to those with callous hearts!

Yes, I understand that annihilation is being destroyed forever AFTER justice is done. But if that happens for those who are lost, then heaven only lasts that long as well and ends. Eternal destruction and eternal life last for the exact same time. Eternity in hell and eternity in heaven. You pick the time period. Eternal punishment in hell are the same as the eternal rewards we receive.

 

[GWH]

Yes, I understand that annihilation is being destroyed forever AFTER justice is done. But if that happens for those who are lost, then heaven only lasts that long as well and ends. Eternal destruction and eternal life last for the exact same time. Eternity in hell and eternity in heaven. You pick the time period. Eternal punishment in hell are the same as the eternal rewards we receive.

I am surprised that you think heaven for the saved is not eternal, because they share the infinite righteousness and life of Christ.

 

[EmethAlethia]

I am surprised that you think heaven for the saved is not eternal, because they share the infinite righteousness and life of Christ.

I said, since eternity in hell, and eternity in heaven use the exact same words, both last for the same time. There is no "annihilation" after a particular period in time unless those receiving heaven also are annihilated at the same time.

Scripture says both last the same time period eons upon eons, ... the only way to state "for eternity" in koine Greek. Unless you want to make them "both" temporary you must make them "both" eternal. Just saying.

 

[EmethAlethia]

I am surprised that you think heaven for the saved is not eternal, because they share the infinite righteousness and life of Christ.

I said, since eternity in hell, and eternity in heaven use the exact same words, both last for the same time. There is no "annihilation" after a particular period in time unless those receiving heaven also are annihilated at the same time.

Scripture says both last the same time period eons upon eons, ... the only way to state "for eternity" in koine Greek. Unless you want to make them "both" temporary you must make them "both" eternal. Just saying. Here's another example using the same word destruction.

Mat 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
Mat 25:46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." ​

Destruction is another word for hell. People who die, and are lost, are not annihilated. They go to hell. Hell is not temporary, it's for eternity. The punishment is for "eternity". Destruction in hell is not temporary. But, if you choose to apply a different definition, i.e. punishment is temporary, to the same exact word in the same exact sentence then you must also make "eternal life" just as temporary.

 

[2Christ]

I think you are repeating things that you heard or read somewhere and have absolutely no evidence to support them. There aren't 45,000 "Christian" belief groups. I very much doubt there are more than about 200 different non-Christian belief systems.

Either find evidence, or stop repeating mindless blather.

i asked Ai for fun just to see that it would come up with;
the question was, :approximately , now many christian denominations are there?
There is no exact number because new churches and independent groups are formed every year, and different organizations count them differently. However, the best estimates are:

• Around 45,000 to 50,000 Christian denominations worldwide is the most commonly cited range.
• A widely quoted estimate is about 47,000 denominations, based on data from the Center for the Study of Global Christianity.

That large number can be misleading, though. It does not mean there are 47,000 different theologies. The count includes:

• National branches of the same church (for example, an Anglican church in one country and another in a different country may be counted separately).
• Independent churches.
• Small local associations.
• Churches that differ only in administration or culture rather than doctrine.

Most Christians belong to a few major traditions:

• Roman Catholic Church: about 1.4 billion
• Eastern Orthodox Church: about 220–260 million
• Oriental Orthodox Churches: about 50–70 million
• Protestant churches (including Lutheran, Reformed, Anglican, Baptist, Methodist, Pentecostal, and many others): about 900 million to 1 billion

Within Protestantism alone, there are tens of thousands of separate organizations, although many share the same core beliefs.

If you're asking from a biblical perspective, another interesting observation is that despite the many denominations, Jesus prayed:

Neither for these only do I pray, but for them also that believe on me through their word; that they may all be one...(John 17:20–21, ASV)

This verse is often cited to show that Christ desired unity among His followers, even though Christianity today is organizationally diverse.

 

[GWH]

I said, since eternity in hell, and eternity in heaven use the exact same words, both last for the same time. There is no "annihilation" after a particular period in time unless those receiving heaven also are annihilated at the same time.

Scripture says both last the same time period eons upon eons, ... the only way to state "for eternity" in koine Greek. Unless you want to make them "both" temporary you must make them "both" eternal. Just saying.

Just because the same words are used does not mean finite sinners will suffer an infinite amount of time.
Does that concept jibe with God's love and justice? No. Do not ignore how Rom. 2:5-16 indicates the harmonization:
Hell is eternal, but souls are destroyed when they have atoned for their own evil per the following logic and Scripture:

MFW only exists when there is the possibility of choosing between two qualitatively opposite moral options that we call good and evil. These options are opposites because of essentially different consequences for choosing them. Choosing good results in blessing, life and heaven; and choosing evil results in cursing, death and hell (Deut. 30:19). This is why hell as well as heaven exists. It is the just consequence for choosing evil rather than God. The Spirit of God is good: love, peace and joy (Gal. 5:22-23). Therefore, whoever rejects the Lord is spiritually separated from Him (Isa. 59:2) and thereby chooses the evil or satanic spirit of hatred, strife and misery and reaps the just consequence called “hell” in the afterlife (Gal. 6:7-9, Heb. 9:27-28).

Such evil people punish/torture themselves by experiencing delayed karma, just as those who experience appropriate justice during this earthly existence also punish themselves or reap what they have sown and send themselves to jail. This view makes souls responsible for breaking the rules rather than blaming evil on the judges (or Judge) who enforce the rules. The purpose of earthly punishment is to promote repentance, but the reason for retribution in hell is to attain justice.

It is difficult to imagine, but somehow even someone as evil as Hitler will receive perfect justice, perhaps experiencing the agony of the millions of deaths he caused in accordance with the principal of “eye for eye” (Matt. 5:38), after which their souls are destroyed forever (per John 17:12, Rom. 9:22, Gal. 6:8, Phil. 3:19, 2Thes. 1:9, 2Pet. 3:7 & Rev. 20:13-14).

 

[EmethAlethia]

Just because the same words are used does not mean finite sinners will suffer an infinite amount of time.

Mat 25:46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." ​

The same exact words are used in the same exact sentence, and you are saying they have a completely different meaning. "Eternity" means something different, in the same sentence. Really?

"That which we love least is always forced to conform to that which we love most. Everyone either loves truth, or they love their beliefs." Me

Mar 9:47 "If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell, 48 where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.

2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; ​

Rev 14:10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

I would like the scriptures to mean that on my 65th birthday I get a million dollars cash. I would like it to say/mean that. But I won't distort the meaning of the scriptures to try and force it to be true. My goal is to keep on proving all things over and over again and hold fast to what is being proven good/true, not to hold fast to any of my feelings and beliefs. They are all subject to change. Even this belief.

The point is, if the words "everlasting" were not present, you'd have a case. These will be "destroyed". If ANY of these were in the Aorist Tense, and again, without the word "everlasting", you might have a case. I don't see any case at all, unless we ignore the meaning to hold fast to what we "want to believe" "as" truth.

Does that concept jibe with God's love and justice? No. Do not ignore how Rom. 2:5-16 indicates the harmonization:

Let's not ignore the meaning in passages we don't want to look at because they might contradict our beliefs. Let's not change meaning in an attempt to force scriptures to agree with, or at least not negate our beliefs. Let's take all meaning on the same topic as adjectival and take them all at face value, and then let's see what happens when we keep on proving all things over and over and hold fast to what is being proven good/true.

I'd love to have your beliefs. But I won't change meaning in an attempt to force it to be so.

Rom. 2:5-6 Indicates degrees of suffering in hell based on what is done, and not done, but they do not change the "meaning" in the other passages listed. They have an adjectival effect.

I do not see where Rom. 2:7-15 contributes anything to the discussion. If you do, please point it out.

I look at scripture this way. Everything says what it says in the context in which the passage is found, in the light of the entire discussion in which it is a part of, with a consistent meaning of words and root words as they are found throughout the Hebrew Old Testament and Greek Old and New Testaments.

Find the exact meaning of every passage in the light of the entire discussion on the topic being discussed. Once you have those meanings, combine all the meanings so no meaning is left out, no meaning is added, and no meaning is distorted in an attempt to hold fast to, or refute, a specific belief.

Hell is eternal, but souls are destroyed when they have atoned for their own evil per the following logic and Scripture:

All scriptures that truly are on the same topic have an adjectival effect. Keep in mind, I am not starting from logic and reason, and on what I feel things should be like, but with all the scriptures that pertain to the topic, seeking to accurately dissect the meaning of all of them, and then combining all of that meaning without adding, subtracting or distorting any of it in an attempt to force things to align with a belief or belief set. What I "Feel", "Wish", "Desire", ... the meaning to be, doesn't matter.

MFW only exists when there is the possibility of choosing between two qualitatively opposite moral options that we call good and evil. These options are opposites because of essentially different consequences for choosing them. Choosing good results in blessing, life and heaven; and choosing evil results in cursing, death and hell (Deut. 30:19). This is why hell as well as heaven exists. It is the just consequence for choosing evil rather than God.

Ok. We seem to be on a similar page on this part.

The Spirit of God is good: love, peace and joy (Gal. 5:22-23).

God is also perfect wrath, jealousy, vengeance, punishment, ...

Therefore, whoever rejects the Lord is spiritually separated from Him (Isa. 59:2) and thereby chooses the evil or satanic spirit of hatred, strife and misery and reaps the just consequence called “hell” in the afterlife (Gal. 6:7-9, Heb. 9:27-28).

The crux is receiving or rejecting the love of the truth. The love of which also results in doing what it takes to discover our erroneous beliefs with a willingness to alter any/all of them to fit what is being proven good/true.

Such evil people punish/torture themselves by experiencing delayed karma, just as those who experience appropriate justice during this earthly existence also punish themselves or reap what they have sown and send themselves to jail. This view makes souls responsible for breaking the rules rather than blaming evil on the judges (or Judge) who enforce the rules. The purpose of earthly punishment is to promote repentance,

Rom 2:4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? ​

but the reason for retribution in hell is to attain justice.

Ok.

It is difficult to imagine, but somehow even someone as evil as Hitler will receive perfect justice, perhaps experiencing the agony of the millions of deaths he caused in accordance with the principal of “eye for eye” (Matt. 5:38), after which their souls are destroyed forever (per John 17:12, Rom. 9:22, Gal. 6:8, Phil. 3:19, 2Thes. 1:9, 2Pet. 3:7 & Rev. 20:13-14).

Ok, so we agree, there are "degrees" (Pun intended) of punishment in hell. I agree. Here's another passage:

Luk 12:47 "And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, shall receive many lashes, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few.​

I agree. I have always agreed. But that doesn't change that scripture says the punishment and destruction never ever end, just like the rewards in heaven never ever end. Continuity on both "ends". Both never stop. Just differences in intensity. Sorry, can't cut the words "eternal" out to hold fast to pleasant wishes. I can't change the meaning to allow for your beliefs. I must take the meaning that is present and alter my beliefs to fit that. I love truth. So, if you can show me how I need not add, subtract, or distort meaning to hold fast to your beliefs. Unless you can show me how I don't have to do so.

It seems to me that you really "want" something to be true, so you are trying to select out what you can use to prove your beliefs true and prove the opposing beliefs false, interpreting everything in the light of what you want to believe "as" truth. What do you do with the word "eternal", as in "ongoing, never ever ceasing", in all of these passages. If you are correct, it ceases. those are opposites like heaven and hell.

 

[GWH]

Mat 25:46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." ​

The same exact words are used in the same exact sentence, and you are saying they have a completely different meaning. "Eternity" means something different, in the same sentence. Really?

"That which we love least is always forced to conform to that which we love most. Everyone either loves truth, or they love their beliefs." Me

Mar 9:47 "If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell, 48 where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.

2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; ​

Rev 14:10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

I would like the scriptures to mean that on my 65th birthday I get a million dollars cash. I would like it to say/mean that. But I won't distort the meaning of the scriptures to try and force it to be true. My goal is to keep on proving all things over and over again and hold fast to what is being proven good/true, not to hold fast to any of my feelings and beliefs. They are all subject to change. Even this belief.

The point is, if the words "everlasting" were not present, you'd have a case. These will be "destroyed". If ANY of these were in the Aorist Tense, and again, without the word "everlasting", you might have a case. I don't see any case at all, unless we ignore the meaning to hold fast to what we "want to believe" "as" truth.

Let's not ignore the meaning in passages we don't want to look at because they might contradict our beliefs. Let's not change meaning in an attempt to force scriptures to agree with, or at least not negate our beliefs. Let's take all meaning on the same topic as adjectival and take them all at face value, and then let's see what happens when we keep on proving all things over and over and hold fast to what is being proven good/true.

I'd love to have your beliefs. But I won't change meaning in an attempt to force it to be so.

Rom. 2:5-6 Indicates degrees of suffering in hell based on what is done, and not done, but they do not change the "meaning" in the other passages listed. They have an adjectival effect.

I do not see where Rom. 2:7-15 contributes anything to the discussion. If you do, please point it out.

I look at scripture this way. Everything says what it says in the context in which the passage is found, in the light of the entire discussion in which it is a part of, with a consistent meaning of words and root words as they are found throughout the Hebrew Old Testament and Greek Old and New Testaments.

Find the exact meaning of every passage in the light of the entire discussion on the topic being discussed. Once you have those meanings, combine all the meanings so no meaning is left out, no meaning is added, and no meaning is distorted in an attempt to hold fast to, or refute, a specific belief.

All scriptures that truly are on the same topic have an adjectival effect. Keep in mind, I am not starting from logic and reason, and on what I feel things should be like, but with all the scriptures that pertain to the topic, seeking to accurately dissect the meaning of all of them, and then combining all of that meaning without adding, subtracting or distorting any of it in an attempt to force things to align with a belief or belief set. What I "Feel", "Wish", "Desire", ... the meaning to be, doesn't matter.

Ok. We seem to be on a similar page on this part.

God is also perfect wrath, jealousy, vengeance, punishment, ...

The crux is receiving or rejecting the love of the truth. The love of which also results in doing what it takes to discover our erroneous beliefs with a willingness to alter any/all of them to fit what is being proven good/true.

Rom 2:4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? ​

Ok.

Ok, so we agree, there are "degrees" (Pun intended) of punishment in hell. I agree. Here's another passage:

Luk 12:47 "And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, shall receive many lashes, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few.​

I agree. I have always agreed. But that doesn't change that scripture says the punishment and destruction never ever end, just like the rewards in heaven never ever end. Continuity on both "ends". Both never stop. Just differences in intensity. Sorry, can't cut the words "eternal" out to hold fast to pleasant wishes. I can't change the meaning to allow for your beliefs. I must take the meaning that is present and alter my beliefs to fit that. I love truth. So, if you can show me how I need not add, subtract, or distort meaning to hold fast to your beliefs. Unless you can show me how I don't have to do so.

It seems to me that you really "want" something to be true, so you are trying to select out what you can use to prove your beliefs true and prove the opposing beliefs false, interpreting everything in the light of what you want to believe "as" truth. What do you do with the word "eternal", as in "ongoing, never ever ceasing", in all of these passages. If you are correct, it ceases. those are opposites like heaven and hell.

You seem unwilling to view hell as eternal but sentences for sinners as just, but then you agreed there are degrees of punishment,
so I don't see why you balk at thinking there are different lengths.

I believe if a meaning is unjust, then one's understanding of it needs to be amended until it agrees with what is loving.

Rom. 2:7-15 teaches something akin to karma, which is more just than belief hell's punishment is infinite for all.
The entire context is all of Scripture, but certain verses serve better than others as guiding teachings. If you want me
to provide a list of mine, I can do so next time. HAND