The Great Apostasy.
- Thread starter Dave-L
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
"The Lord had distinctly said that He would speak to the prophets in a manner less clear and direct than that in which He would speak to Moses His Servant (Num. 12:1–8). With the prophets He would speak in dreams and visions and—so it would seem—in dark and enigmatic sayings. In revelations which were given as visions, therefore, we should expect an abundance of imagery and symbolism. There are many instances of such revelation in the prophetical books (e. g., Isa. 24–27; Joel 3:9–17; Zech. 14; Ps. 2; Amos 7–9)."
Young, E. J. (1980). The Prophecy of Daniel: A Commentary (p. 21). Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co.
Young, E. J. (1980). The Prophecy of Daniel: A Commentary (p. 21). Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co.
Maybe they didn't know that a complete end was coming to Judaism but they knew, if the Lord was correct, that an end was coming to the way the Pharisees and leaders and teachers of the Jews understood and taught Judaism.
And you were right. They were very offended by this. Their understanding and the way they practiced Judaism had been passed down from generation to generation.
The Lord Jesus was saying that not only were they wrong but those who passed it down were also wrong. Not possibly, maybe wrong. They were for sure wrong.
The Lord Jesus spoke as One with Authority. He wasn't taking His best guess and hoping, leaving room for one of His "peers" to contradict Him.
And you were right. They were very offended by this. Their understanding and the way they practiced Judaism had been passed down from generation to generation.
The Lord Jesus was saying that not only were they wrong but those who passed it down were also wrong. Not possibly, maybe wrong. They were for sure wrong.
The Lord Jesus spoke as One with Authority. He wasn't taking His best guess and hoping, leaving room for one of His "peers" to contradict Him.
-
2
- Show all
Yes but we have a very firm foundation in the Hebrew letters themselves. Each letter had profound archetype energy. For example the letter B represents a tent. At the time Moses was given the Torah they were living in the desert in tents. Even the Tabernacle and the HOLY of Holies was a tent. Over the years this has come to mean our dwelling place. This represents God's desire to dwell with man. So we start off very simple so a child can understand, then we develop the idea as we learn and grow. The letter C represents a Camel or Commerce. From this they develop the idea of what it means to run and return. A child can understand a camel. Disney tries to teach them about the seasons and the cycles of life. So we start off very simple with a solid foundation. Then we can build even a high rise building.
-
2
- Show all
Jesus did not put an end to anything, he was the fulfillment. I remember in the movie mask the boy has a girlfriend at summer camp who was blind. She had never seen a cloud in the sky and he wanted to teach her about clouds so he got some cotton and put that in her hand and told her that a cloud was like cotton. Everything in Judaism is a lesson like that. A lesson that people still need to learn. Someday her eyes will be opened and she will see and experience the clouds in the sky. But for now all she has is the feel of the cotton.
Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
By fulfilling it the Lord Jesus has effectively ended it.
Everything in Judaism is a lesson showing the absolute need for Our Lord to fulfill what we cannot. Come to me, you that labour and are heavily laden, and I will give you rest. Why are they laboring and heavily laden? Because they are working at what they can't fulfill. How are they given rest? Because the Lord ends the work at what they can't fulfill; Judaism.
Once that girls eyes are opened and she sees the clouds in the sky how can she go back to pretending that cotton is what clouds are???
Its the same as coming to Christ and receiving rest. How can a person go back to laboring and being heavily laden when they have been given Rest? They can't. Judaism is ended in Christ.
By fulfilling it the Lord Jesus has effectively ended it.
Everything in Judaism is a lesson showing the absolute need for Our Lord to fulfill what we cannot. Come to me, you that labour and are heavily laden, and I will give you rest. Why are they laboring and heavily laden? Because they are working at what they can't fulfill. How are they given rest? Because the Lord ends the work at what they can't fulfill; Judaism.
Once that girls eyes are opened and she sees the clouds in the sky how can she go back to pretending that cotton is what clouds are???
Its the same as coming to Christ and receiving rest. How can a person go back to laboring and being heavily laden when they have been given Rest? They can't. Judaism is ended in Christ.
-
1
- Show all
2Pe_1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
The DAY of Christ is when the DAY star (Christ) arises in your heart. That day wont come until the man of sin (the old you) falls away. When the old man falls away, his identity is revealed.... It's YOU! You oppose and exalt yourself above all that is called God. It is the old you that sits in the temple of God (your heart), showing yourself to be God.
Another perfect example of Strong's concordance leading people astray..... falling away means falling away, it doesn't mean apostasy.
The DAY of Christ is when the DAY star (Christ) arises in your heart. That day wont come until the man of sin (the old you) falls away. When the old man falls away, his identity is revealed.... It's YOU! You oppose and exalt yourself above all that is called God. It is the old you that sits in the temple of God (your heart), showing yourself to be God.
Another perfect example of Strong's concordance leading people astray..... falling away means falling away, it doesn't mean apostasy.
-
1
- Show all
The mystery of iniquity began back during the time of Jesus. They even used the apostle Peter and claimed he was a part of the apostasy, as if Peter would ever join such a thing having to do with the Roman empire and Judaism. Yet sadly billions believe in that lie.
I do agree that the new temple is the body of Christ. Which makes me wonder then, what about the two witnesses mentioned in Revelation who will prophesy. I would think these two witnesses are Moses and Elijah because they appeared at Jesus' transfiguration. However are the two witnesses simply symbolic in some way? Some think that there will be a literal temple rebuilt and perhaps so as part of Satans deception.
The Pharisees were steeped in their traditions and rituals and thought their many doctrines could save them. Then a new religion came about which was modeled much like Judaism except that it uses the name of Christ. Any religion that uses the name of Christ but distorts the scriptures and adds their own doctrines is truly against Christ or Antichrist. The is a mother of all harlots and then there are her offspring the minor apostate churches. The pope has been making his rounds these last 7 years gaining support for his cause.
I do agree that the new temple is the body of Christ. Which makes me wonder then, what about the two witnesses mentioned in Revelation who will prophesy. I would think these two witnesses are Moses and Elijah because they appeared at Jesus' transfiguration. However are the two witnesses simply symbolic in some way? Some think that there will be a literal temple rebuilt and perhaps so as part of Satans deception.
The Pharisees were steeped in their traditions and rituals and thought their many doctrines could save them. Then a new religion came about which was modeled much like Judaism except that it uses the name of Christ. Any religion that uses the name of Christ but distorts the scriptures and adds their own doctrines is truly against Christ or Antichrist. The is a mother of all harlots and then there are her offspring the minor apostate churches. The pope has been making his rounds these last 7 years gaining support for his cause.
The two witnesses are the two olive trees and two candlesticks. The meaning of the two olive trees and candlesticks are found in Zechariah.
Zec 4:2 And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:
Zec 4:3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.
Zec 4:4 So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?
Zec 4:5 Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
Zec 4:6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.
The two olive trees are the word of the Lord that speaks to Zerubbabel. The two witnesses are the bible, 1) Old Testament 2) New Testament.
The candlestick is described in detail in the book of Exodus. The candlestick has exactly 66 knops, bowls and flowers.
Zec 4:2 And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:
Zec 4:3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.
Zec 4:4 So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?
Zec 4:5 Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
Zec 4:6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.
The two olive trees are the word of the Lord that speaks to Zerubbabel. The two witnesses are the bible, 1) Old Testament 2) New Testament.
The candlestick is described in detail in the book of Exodus. The candlestick has exactly 66 knops, bowls and flowers.
Interesting theory, I had not heard that before. I had thought perhaps it symbolized the believing church. If it is the old testament and new testament then how does that work when it says the beast kills the two witnesses and then after 3 days they come back to life and ascend to heaven?
-
1
- Show all
I think you are right in saying it sybolizes the believing church because His word is in us. My theory on the two witnesses coming back to life involves the death and resurrection of Christ.
When Christ (The Word) died, the graves in Jerusalem opened up and the dead bodies came to the surface. They remained there for three days. On the third day when Christ rose from the dead, their dead bodies were given life and they walked the streets of Jerusalem. Then when Jesus ascended, they ascended with him.
People who believe all of Revelation is future wont accept that interpretation because it doesn't fit their end times view. I don't believe all of Revelation is future.
Thank you for your comments, I think you helped me understand that a little better!
When Christ (The Word) died, the graves in Jerusalem opened up and the dead bodies came to the surface. They remained there for three days. On the third day when Christ rose from the dead, their dead bodies were given life and they walked the streets of Jerusalem. Then when Jesus ascended, they ascended with him.
People who believe all of Revelation is future wont accept that interpretation because it doesn't fit their end times view. I don't believe all of Revelation is future.
Thank you for your comments, I think you helped me understand that a little better!
-
1
- Show all
Thank you this theory seems to make much more sense now. Because Christ is the word and his word lives in us because his spirit is with us. I believe the book of Revelation sometimes parallels past and future events. Perhaps the description of the two witnesses also has something to do with when the church will be persecuted and killed for their testimony of Jesus and then after they are taken out of the way it leaves nothing left to stop the beast to deceive the world. Then after a few days those who died are raised back to life again and ascend to meet Christ in the air. I could be totally wrong though. Many people are under the assumption that people will be caught up before things get really bad and because I believe in miracles and I know God can do anything I will hope for that as well. But through my studies of the scriptures when Israel would stray from God he would allow then to suffer but eventually he would save them again. It seems like a pattern that humanity has followed and is stuck in because of sin. So there can really only be two possibilities for how he who restrains is taken out of the way. Either there will be a catching up of multitudes and they will not face a physical death like most or people will die because of their testimony for Christ and then they will be raised and caught up that way. Either way it does say in 2 Thessalonians that the gathering to Christ will not occur until after the rebellion and the man of lawlessness is revealed.
-
1
- Show all
If you think about it, the old testament saints that were raised represent the old testament while Christ represents the new testament - the two witnesses laying dead who were raised three and a half days later. It's a thought, it may not be right.
I'm on the fence about parts of Revelation being in the future.... I just don't know for sure. I can see past fulfillment of Revelation up until the 7th seal, after that I'm up in the air.
When I think about the rapture Hebrews 9:27 always comes to mind. To me the rapture contradicts Hebrews 9:27.
Heb_9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Being caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord, could mean something other than our translation. I really don't know where I stand on that right now but given time, I truly believe the Lord will reveal it to me through the scripture.
I'm on the fence about parts of Revelation being in the future.... I just don't know for sure. I can see past fulfillment of Revelation up until the 7th seal, after that I'm up in the air.
When I think about the rapture Hebrews 9:27 always comes to mind. To me the rapture contradicts Hebrews 9:27.
Heb_9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Being caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord, could mean something other than our translation. I really don't know where I stand on that right now but given time, I truly believe the Lord will reveal it to me through the scripture.
I didn't say Jesus ended.
I said, as scripture also states, that the Lord has effectively ended the practice of Judaism.
Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Hebrews 9:8-12
8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Do you just not understand what the scripture is saying?
Or do you just not want to understand?
I said, as scripture also states, that the Lord has effectively ended the practice of Judaism.
Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Hebrews 9:8-12
8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Do you just not understand what the scripture is saying?
Or do you just not want to understand?
Interesting thoughts thank you for sharing. It does say that the bodies of the two witness will lie in the public square for 3.5 days. So I think it must indicate something else besides Jesus because Jesus was in a tomb for the 3 days.
So you think we are now at the time just before the 7th seal? I have often thought that the seals started to become opened throughout history which would explain many things. Except I do not think the sixth seal has happened as of yet because it says the heavens receded like a scroll and everyone on Earth hid in caves to try and avoid the coming judgment from Christ.
As for the rapture there is definitely some mystery to it, but it does say that the catching up will not happen until after the rebellion and man of sin is revealed. It's possible that the rebellion or great apostasy occured back when the Roman church started with it's heresies and killing and torture of true Christians. Although many think that it will be a key event in the middle of the 7 that will reveal who the man of sin is and I suppose that is also possible.
I wonder if the catching up means that we as humans in this realm are stuck in what we call time, whereas God is outside of time and so for God it is already finished. So we must wait until time catches up with where we already are in a future place.
There were two who never died, Elijah and Enoch. Some theorize they must be the two witnesses because they have to come back and die in order to be born again. Not sure about that.
So you think we are now at the time just before the 7th seal? I have often thought that the seals started to become opened throughout history which would explain many things. Except I do not think the sixth seal has happened as of yet because it says the heavens receded like a scroll and everyone on Earth hid in caves to try and avoid the coming judgment from Christ.
As for the rapture there is definitely some mystery to it, but it does say that the catching up will not happen until after the rebellion and man of sin is revealed. It's possible that the rebellion or great apostasy occured back when the Roman church started with it's heresies and killing and torture of true Christians. Although many think that it will be a key event in the middle of the 7 that will reveal who the man of sin is and I suppose that is also possible.
I wonder if the catching up means that we as humans in this realm are stuck in what we call time, whereas God is outside of time and so for God it is already finished. So we must wait until time catches up with where we already are in a future place.
There were two who never died, Elijah and Enoch. Some theorize they must be the two witnesses because they have to come back and die in order to be born again. Not sure about that.
