The "Impossible" Gospel

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Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
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#21
Jesus clarified to the law, I believe. For example, in the account of the adulterous woman. He did not say, do not stone her, but asked which among them was adequately qualified to stone her, and then spoke to her saying, "neither, do I condemn you...go, and sin no more." He did not say what she had done was okay, in fact, added that she should do it no more.

Jesus made all things new by giving her a new start to continue in observance of that commandment. I don't think anyone is implying that the commandments is become null and void, but the punishment of it. So the equation would look like this; Torah Commandments without Jesus, death, Torah Commandments with Jesus, life. So, what is unclear is, what would Jesus without the Torah Commandments add up to?
 
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WomanLovesTX

Senior Member
Jan 1, 2010
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#22
Not Recommended.
Besides, the law did not die for our law breaking...no mercy under the law.
So your saying Jesus is not the law?

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#23
So your saying Jesus is not the law?

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Now you are using a different definition. logos or nomos?

John 1:16-17 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
For the law (nomos) was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
 
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Oct 31, 2011
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#24
Jesus kept that Law, yet was hounded and punished over how He kept it. He procalimed that not one jot ot tittle of that law would diminish. It remains to this day, in fact. But Jesus introduced a far better covenant, fresh from God the Father! Jesus didn't take one thing from the Law away, or add to it. He simply introduced a whole new offer from God. The two offers run side-by-side, the old one being abolished on the cross, but yet in full force for the sinners of the world. They are still under the old covenant, agree or not, until deemed no longer sinners. Law breakers are under the old law!

The old covenant offered mercy by way of obedience to the strict law, all of it. In reality nobody coud accomplish that, so salvation was always put off another year. Blood of animals filled the gap per agreement of God. But once the blood of Jesus was shed, no animal bllod would do, and all God's focus went upon Jesus' blood. The Law remains there, but has no direct effect upon those trusting in Jesus' blood instead of that of animal blood.

I want to say this, which agrees with scriptures, that in CHRIST I LOVE the LAW. I have no disagreement with it. I am in Christ such that I will not fear the Law. It has no power over me. It is now clearly my schoolmaster teaching me what sin is. I appreciate that! It makes me all the more appreciate the grace of God unto affording to me the message of the gospel of Christ. Besides that God afforded me enough faith to believe that message unto salvation His way! It has all been by the goodness of God, that goodness being a manifestation of the pure glory of God. God is so good. GOOD! He is all GOOD. No evil in Him.
The Torah is not "the law". Even the definition of the word Torah cannot be only law, although the words suggestions of the Lord is not strong enough to give the entire meaning. Torah is also the first five books of scripture. It contains a word picture of the Lord. You are responding to something that simply is not in existence.

What do you mean by "Old covenant"? There were many covenants God made with us before Christ was crucified. Have you studied the covenant that God made with Moses, even? That covenant has nothing to do with the forgiveness we have in Christ, except for one point of it. It helps us understand what the Lord means by the word sin that Christ forgives us from. The main points of this covenant has nothing to do with salvation, except it is only for those who have been saved through the blood of Christ.

According to Christ, the "law" as you put it has never changed, yet you are speaking of the old law as if it is something different. Don't you believe Christ? Christ explained it more thoroughly saying "you have been told" and then "but I tell you". What he told us about any law was not a cancellation, but an addition to it.

Yes, God is good. God is love. God is our salvation. God is our creator. There are many attributes of God and every word of scripture points to these attributes, from Genesis to Revelation.
 
Oct 31, 2011
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#25
Jesus clarified to the law, I believe. For example, in the account of the adulterous woman. He did not say, do not stone her, but asked which among them was adequately qualified to stone her, and then spoke to her saying, "neither, do I condemn you...go, and sin no more." He did not say what she had done was okay, in fact, added that she should do it no more.

Jesus made all things new by giving her a new start to continue in observance of that commandment. I don't think anyone is implying that the commandments is become null and void, but the punishment of it. So the equation would look like this; Torah Commandments without Jesus, death, Torah Commandments with Jesus, life. So, what is unclear is, what would Jesus without the Torah Commandments add up to?
They were breaking the law by stoning her. She was being punished and her partner was nowhere to be seen. In their hearts, they were using her to condemn Jesus, according to law they could not do that. We need to realize these things also as we read about the adulterous woman.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,788
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#26
The Torah is not "the law". Even the definition of the word Torah cannot be only law, although the words suggestions of the Lord is not strong enough to give the entire meaning. Torah is also the first five books of scripture. It contains a word picture of the Lord. You are responding to something that simply is not in existence.

What do you mean by "Old covenant"? There were many covenants God made with us before Christ was crucified. Have you studied the covenant that God made with Moses, even? That covenant has nothing to do with the forgiveness we have in Christ, except for one point of it. It helps us understand what the Lord means by the word sin that Christ forgives us from. The main points of this covenant has nothing to do with salvation, except it is only for those who have been saved through the blood of Christ.

According to Christ, the "law" as you put it has never changed, yet you are speaking of the old law as if it is something different. Don't you believe Christ? Christ explained it more thoroughly saying "you have been told" and then "but I tell you". What he told us about any law was not a cancellation, but an addition to it.

Yes, God is good. God is love. God is our salvation. God is our creator. There are many attributes of God and every word of scripture points to these attributes, from Genesis to Revelation.
Good point, I know there are two testaments, but, are there two covenants? The LORD made a covenant with Abraham (while Abraham slept, and it was indeed a covenant with Himself, the pillar of smoke and the pillar of fire), I believe this is the same one that Christ carried out, finished it, that is.
 
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crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#27
The following is from a book by Professor WA Liebenberg titled There is only "one" covenant, and Christians have grossly missed it.

There is a Gospel, the "true Gospel" that is unbreakable and unchangeable: this is YHWH's Gospel, and it is cast in concrete. And then there is the gospel that the majority of Christianity believes in. This is what I'd like to call, "The Impossible Gospel". The following three reasons will explain why:

1) Reason NO. 1: You cannot add or take away from the Torah:



The first point implies that Y'shua and all the apostles would've been bound by this law. They could not add to nor take away from the Torah.

2) Reason NO. 2: You must test it to see if it is the truth, and cannot lead you astray or into rebellion:



Point number two explains to us clearly that if a person, Pastor, Prophet, or Teacher leads the nation astray (away from YHWH's ways), the prophet has to be stoned and is classifed as a false Prophet or Teacher.

So what is "The Way" - meaning the only "correct way"? Again Scripture (YHWH's own words) gives us the defining answer, not man's opinion:



YHWH's Torah is not the way of death, but the way of LIFE! Torah is designed to improve, bless, protect and to enhance life significantly - wow! Ultimately, Torah is YHWH's instructions in righteousness. (2 Tim 3:16)

That means you must test every single thing against the Torah: the Torah is the only measuring stick that can and should be used for correct doctrine. Any teaching, saying, preaching, even an interpretation of scripture contradicting the Torah, is false. This obviously makes the one teaching it a false prophet (proved above) and liar (proven later, and that is YHWH's standard.

3) Reason No. 3: YHWH and Y'shua cannot change. (Malachi 3:6 and Heb 13:8)

Let's ask the question, "Is YHWH random and changes things without informing His followers, us?" also "Can Elohim do anything without letter the Prophets know: i.e., that His Son will do away with the Law?"



No, He cannot. YHWH clearly tells us He will do nothing unless He reveals and declares it to His Prophets. If YHWH wanted His Son to die so that we can now eat pork, surely He would have made it known and distinctly told us as much. No, there is not one single verse that says the Torah would be done away with - not one single prophesy. The problem is man's grossly incorrect interpretation of the Word that steers Christians away from the Torah! And these incorrect interpretations stem from a lack of knowledge of Torah.

Pointnumber 3 proves to us that something was planned, and not part of a misinterpretation. If YHWH prophesies that something will happen, then we know that it must happen. However, if it is not prophesied, then we must also know that it will not happen.

As a Christian, please answer these questions: "Is Y'shua without Sin?" Is it at all possible that Y'shua could sin? The answer is obvious that Y'shua is sinless and cannot sin at all, not even in the smallest matter. Now follow this argument to see where Christianity is flawed concerning the Torah:



So here we clearly see, they could not find anything Y'shua did, wrong. Y'shua was terefore without sin; so much so that they had to call in false witnesses to condemn Him. Remember, their country's laws were Torah. They judged Y'shua based on the Torah, as they have always done. Surely if He taught rebellion against the Torah of YHWH, they wouldn't need to call in false witnesses!

For a moment, let's get back to the question, "What is sin?" We saw clearly from Scripture that "sin is the transgression of the law". Meaning, we can all agree that Y'shua did not transgress the Law.

By reasoning and intellectual comprehension, it is clear that Y'shua then never broke any one of the Commandments of the Law. That means He guarded every single Commandment of the Law! Let us give you an example:

Y'shua was before Caiaphas and He did not want to speak. (Matt 26:61-64). Caiaphas commanded Him: "I adjure you to speak!" All of a sudden Y'shua began to speak, why?

Matthew tells us how Caiaphas put Y'shua on solemn oath, and used the oath of testimony saying:



Such an adjuration was understood to render an answer legally necessary, despite the fact that it was illegal to do this trial for life. By Law Y'shua had to reply:



In this case, silence would have been by itself an admission of guilt. Another fact is if Y'shua did not speak here, He would have broken a Law which then in turn would have made Him a sinner.

Summary of "The Impossible Gospel"

The foundation of the impossible Gospel is as follows:

1) Was the Torah changed?
a) You cannot CHANGE the Law (Torah)
b) If somebody changes it, that person must be stoned.
c) It must be revealed first by a Prophet, such as in the Old Covenant before YHWH can change it, and Y'shua the Prophet did not change it.

2) Can Y'shua teach that the Torah is no longer applicable? YHWH says the Torah is FOREVER, and forever means FOREVER.
a) If He did, He would've been stoned.
b) It would not have been "false witnesses" that condemned Y'shua, but true witnesses.

3) It was NEVER revealed that the Torah would come to an end: in fact, we see the complete opposite.
a) Jeremiah chapter 31 talks about a New (renewed) Covenant that will be made, but the New Covenant includes the Law: Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

b) Ezekiel 38 and 39 deals with the Battle of Gog and Magog as well as with the Battle of Armageddon at the end of the Tribulation Period. Chapters 40-48 deal distinctly with the "Olam Haba" (the Millennial Reign of Y'shua) - the Thousand Years of Peace. Ezekiel in chapters 40-48 gives great detail how Y'shua will then reign in His Kingdom on earth. In these chapters, we see Temple sacrifices being restored (for celebrations and food for the Priests), Levites and Cohanim (Priests) resuming their responsibilitites in the Rebuilt Temple, everything only according to the Torah. If the Law was been done away with, why would YHWH restore it again? No, the Law has never been done away with. Christians have been blinded by Satan from YHWH's very truths.

CONCLUSION

The basis of the "Impossible Gospel" is: "if Y'shua taught against the Torah, then He would have been disqualified as the Messiah and would've been a false messiah". The majority of Christianity believes in a messiah that cannot possibly exist. It's a messiah that broke the law, by changing it, while it was not prophesied to happen. It is a messiah that was a sinner, since he broke the Torah.

So, we either accept both the Torah AND the Messiah, or reject both the Torah AND the Messiah.

Y'shua could not teach against Torah; the same goes for ANY other Scripture author, period.
Is this Liebenberg even a Christian? Is it too hard for him to at least pay some lip service to what the Apostle Paul claims the Gospel to be?

Galatians 1:6-9 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
By which also ye are saved,
if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
 
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May 14, 2014
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#28
So being Jesus was included in the Torah and told of in the Torah, we must eliminate the Torah? This "law" you say the Torah consists of is summed up in the words of scripture "you can't keep it"? When we are told that and also told that we must keep law in the same scripture, have you ever thought about how both can be the same message from the same God? How about using keeping it as a way to salvation instead of using Christ for salvation, don't you think that is something we need to know and does not conflict with the message to keep it?

I so wish the church would sit humbly before the Lord and just listen to scripture without all this deciding for themselves what it says!! God is superior.
Unfortunately, those who speak against the law can't tell the difference between honoring your parents and washing pots and pans.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#29
Unfortunately, those who speak against the law can't tell the difference between honoring your parents and washing pots and pans.
Who here is speaking AGAINST the Law. Some may see it have different functions and different ways it is applied, but against?; I don't think so.
 
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psychomom

Guest
#30
Who here is speaking AGAINST the Law. Some may see it have different functions and different ways it is applied, but against?; I don't think so.
unfortunately, speaking for the Gospel is too often seen as speaking against the Law...
 
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psychomom

Guest
#31
Unfortunately, those who speak against the law can't tell the difference between honoring your parents and washing pots and pans.
when my kiddos wash the pots and pans for me, i feel honored. :)
 
May 14, 2014
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#32
when my kiddos wash the pots and pans for me, i feel honored. :)
Lol...that's cool. Just make sure they aren't doing it for the same reason as the religious leaders Jesus spoke to. That's
the law Paul also was opposed to...you know...physical circumcision etc. Messiah taught obedience to the law.
 
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#33
Who here is speaking AGAINST the Law. Some may see it have different functions and different ways it is applied, but against?; I don't think so.
Take another look at Galatians.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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#34
They were breaking the law by stoning her. She was being punished and her partner was nowhere to be seen. In their hearts, they were using her to condemn Jesus, according to law they could not do that. We need to realize these things also as we read about the adulterous woman.
They did not bring her to Jesus to be stoned, but to trap him, and instead, he trapped them by exposing their own sin.
 
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psychomom

Guest
#35
They did not bring her to Jesus to be stoned, but to trap him, and instead, he trapped them by exposing their own sin.
which is what the Law does! :)

i wonder from time to time what Jesus wrote in the dirt...

and i wonder about the only other 2 times God wrote with His finger...
He gave the Law to the children of Israel,
and wrote on the wall to Belshazzar.

hmm...thoughts?
 
Jan 19, 2013
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#36
What do you mean by "Old covenant"?
In the NT, the "Old Covenant" (Heb 8:13) is the Sinaitic covenant.

There were many covenants God made with us before Christ was crucified.
There were only three covenants made with the people of God before Christ.

Have you studied the covenant that God made with Moses. . .The main points of this covenant
has nothing to do with salvation
, except it is only for those who have been saved through the blood of Christ.
It has to do with God being their God and they being his people conditioned on obedience to the Ten Commandments.

According to Christ, the "law" as you put it has never changed, yet you are speaking of the old law as if it is something different.
According to the words spoken by the Son in these last days (Heb 1:1-2) through the NT writers,
those in the new covenant (Lk 22:20) are not under the law of Moses (1Co 9:20), but are under
the law of Christ (Mt 22:37-39) which is God's law (1Co 9:21), and is the law of love which fulfills
the law of Moses (Mt 22:40; Ro 13:8-10; Gal 5:6).

Don't you believe Christ? Christ explained it more thoroughly saying "you have been told" and then "but I tell you".
What he told us about any law was not a cancellation, but an addition to it
.
Not quite. . .Christ the Lawgiver did not add to the law of retaliation,
he changed it to a law of non-retaliation.
 
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May 14, 2014
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#37
They were breaking the law by stoning her. She was being punished and her partner was nowhere to be seen. In their hearts, they were using her to condemn Jesus, according to law they could not do that. We need to realize these things also as we read about the adulterous woman.
The Lord continually corrected the Rabbis. His answer shows the true work and purpose of the law upon the heart. Also, His instruction to the woman after her accusers left. An "impossible" teaching...according to some.
 
Mar 4, 2013
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#38
which is what the Law does! :)

i wonder from time to time what Jesus wrote in the dirt...

and i wonder about the only other 2 times God wrote with His finger...
He gave the Law to the children of Israel,
and wrote on the wall to Belshazzar.

hmm...thoughts?
As we know the Pharisees distorted the law, and also tried cornering Jesus several times by the law as Satan did during the 40 days in the wilderness with Jesus. This might have something to do with what Jesus wrote in the dust. I think He was reminding the Pharisees how off base they were according to the law. It appears that the Pharisees completely rejected the law in this respect simply for the purpose of trying to corner Jesus and prove His ministry in vain. They couldn't do that. No one can.

Numbers 5:12-19
12 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man's wife go aside, and commit a trespass against him,
13 And a man lie with her carnally, and it be hid from the eyes of her husband, and be kept close, and she be defiled , and there be no witness against her, neither she be taken with the manner;
14 And the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be defiled: or if the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be not defiled:
15 Then shall the man bring his wife unto the priest, and he shall bring her offering for her, the tenth part of an ephah of barley meal; he shall pour no oil upon it, nor put frankincense thereon; for it is an offering of jealousy, an offering of memorial, bringing iniquity to remembrance.
16 And the priest shall bring her near , and set her before the LORD:
17 And the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel; and of the dust that is in the floor of the tabernacle the priest shall take, and put it into the water:
18 And the priest shall set the woman before the LORD, and uncover the woman's head, and put the offering of memorial in her hands, which is the jealousy offering: and the priest shall have in his hand the bitter water that causeth the curse:
19 And the priest shall charge her by an oath, and say unto the woman, If no man have lain with thee, and if thou hast not gone aside to uncleanness with another instead of thy husband, be thou free from this bitter water that causeth the curse:
 
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WomanLovesTX

Senior Member
Jan 1, 2010
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#39
Is this Liebenberg even a Christian? Is it too hard for him to at least pay some lip service to what the Apostle Paul claims the Gospel to be?

Galatians 1:6-9 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
By which also ye are saved,
if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
If you think that the apostle Paul is saying the Torah is done away with (not sure if that is what you are applying) then you are misunderstanding Paul. Paul did not teach or preach to do away with Torah. Yes, it is true, Torah is not our salvation, only the fruit of our salvation. Professor Liebenberg doesn't need to give lip service to Christians who believe the impossible gospel, no more than Jesus liked the Pharisees lip service to Him.

Mat_15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

Mar_7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.

Isa 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

Deu_4:39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

Deu_6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. Deu_6:6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Nomos or Logos?
 
Oct 31, 2011
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#40
Everyone is telling of Jesus, as if Jesus was against the Torah. Often, it is felt that to know of Jesus is against learning from or obeying the Torah, yet the opposite is the case. The Torah speaks of atonement, and those under atonement became alive in salvation when Jesus was crucified, it is the same Jesus, yet it is spoken of as different. Christ spoke of Moses and quoted Torah, yet Christ is spoken of when we mention listening to Torah, as if Christ made it obsolete.