The Kerygma - God's Requirement for Salvation

[Publican]

Unfortunately, God disagrees with you, because He said “BAPTISM DOES NOW SAVE US.” 1 Peter 3:21. AND Jesus disagrees with you, because He said, “He that believes and IS BAPTIZED SHALL BE SAVED.” Mark 16:16. In Acts 2:38, God says “Repent and BE BAPTIZED FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINs.” And in Acts 22:16, God told Paul to “…be baptized and WASH AWAY YOUR SINS.” You might be surprised to know that thousands of people still believe what the Bible teaches about baptism. And although “faith only” is the more popular doctrine, James 2:24 assures me that it will not save anyone. In addition, God tells me not to be surprised because the broad way is the more popular way with many people going that way. The gospel of Christ was never the popular way, being too narrow, so I don’t expect many people will be on that road. I think I am in good company, as long as I have the Bible backing me.

As for the thief on the cross, you do err not knowing the scriptures (Matt. 22:29). You do not know if the thief was baptized or not. He could have been since “all Judea, Jerusalem and all the region around Jordan came out to be baptized by John Matt. 3:5 and Jesus and His disciples baptized more than John. John 4:1. So my question is, how do you know the thief was not baptized? Do you have some knowledge that the rest of us do not have?

More importantly, though, is the fact that the thief was never commanded to be baptized. He lived and died under the old law of Moses given to Jews. The new law of Christ that taught baptism for remission of sins had not yet been preached. Luke 24:46 says, “ It was necessary that Christ should suffer and be raised from the dead on the third day and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations BEGINNING IN JERUSALEM.” That prophecy was fulfilled in Acts 2 on the day of Pentecost with Jews from all nations when Peter preached “Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins.” Acts 2:38. The thief on the cross had been dead for 50 days before that was first preached. So you see it was never a commandment for him. But it IS a commandment for us since we live on THIS side of Acts 2:38.

You should do a very thorough study of baptism in the New Testament. You will find, among other things, that EVERY person who was converted in the book of Acts was baptized IMMEDIATELY, after they believed. Paul in 1 Cor. 1 said there were two conditions that must be met before a person could “call” himself (by name) after another person. 1) was that the person you are naming yourself after had to have been CRUCIFIED for you. And 2) you had to have been baptized into that person’s name. He was correcting them because they wanted to name themselves after men—like men have done today. Martin Luther would not qualify for you to call yourself after him because he was not crucified for you. So people who call themselves “Lutherans” are doing so erroneously. Like wise, if you want to be called after Christ,it’s true He was crucified for you, but guess what? You have to be baptized into His name in order to be called “Christian” after Him. That’s what Paul says—not me. I didn’t say it and I didn’t make it up. So what about all of these so called Christians who think they will be saved by “faith only” and that baptism is not necessary? I think they will be some of the ones inMatthew 7 who were “believers”—strong believers—but Christ says I never knew you. If they were not baptized in His name they were never part of Him. This (Matthew 7) is one of the best “proofs” that Faith only does not save anyone.

Oh, I'm certain that God disagrees with me, on quite a few topics. But here's the thing friend. When he's ready, and if its necessary, He'll straighten me out. Always has. Always will.

You see, I'm not of the mind that you and I have to agree on everything to be brothers in Christ. Or that its my job to bring you over to my side. That's Gods job.

And while you may be correct. And you absolutely may be, or maybe you're so totally off base that the Good Lord is just sitting up there shaking His head. Either way, I'll tell you what He's not doing. He's not wagging His finger at you, or me.

I'm going to heaven, heck, heaven is here right now, right inside of me. And it might be inside of you. I don't know. What I do know is that Jesus Christ gave me a new heart and a new mind, a living Spirit. And He did every bit of this months before I was baptized.

Now if the gifts of the Lord are without repentance. And they are. Jesus was mine from that moment forward, and I was His.

I walked an isle and said all the right things when I was 10. I got a bible and warm bath. And that's all I got. I confessed with my mouth and even got baptized, but I did not believe in my heart. No salvation in that. 13 years later. Called out to the heavens. Pull me out of this pit and I will serve you all my days. And He did. Even when He knew I wouldn't keep my end of the bargain till many years later.
Did my faith save me? Nope. Did my prayer save me? Nope. Did baptism save me? Again, no.

My friend, my brother. Christ saved me. Christ pulled me out of the pit. Christ gave me a new life. Christ is the reason, all that He did, all that He is now doing on my behalf, that is what saved me, and is keeping me saved. Christ washed me in His blood. Christ baptized me with His Spirit. And yes, as I said, I eventually went down to the river. But I had been walking in the Spirit and proclaiming the Gospel months before that happened.

Romans 6:3-4 - Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

1 Corinthians 12:13
13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

Acts 11:16
16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized withwater, but you will be baptized withthe Holy Spirit.’

Peace.

 

[GWH]

In a nut shell: for those living before Christ; they must have been faithful followers of Jehovah keeping whatever law they were under—whether the old Jewish law of animal sacrifices and the 10 commandments or whether they were gentiles living under the “ patriarchal law”. Those who loved, and served Jehovah would have been cleansed by the blood of Jesus.. If His blood can reach FORWARD and cleanse us 2000 years this side of the cross, His blood can also reach BACKWARD and cleanse those living thousands of years BEFORE the cross. This is what is taught in Hebrews 9:15. The blood of Jesus saves everyone. This is how the patriarchs like Job, Adam, Abraham, Issac Jacob, and Joseph are saved—just like us, by the blood of Christ which is applied to all of God’s faithful followers.

For those people today who do not know God—regardless of the reason and there could be several reasons why they do not know Him—according to 2 Thess.1 they will be lost. Jesus said you cannot come to the Father except by Him. How can they be saved if they don’t know God? Those people have to obey God’s plan of salvation as it is given in scripture just like we do. God is no respecter of persons. His law is the same for everyone.

Yes, and people without either the patriarchal or Mosaic law can know God by means of creation and conscience per RM 1:20 & 2:14-15, which general revelation is what I call the proto-Gospel.

 

[GWH]

I read that the term kerygma came to refer to the essentials of the gospel message at sometime after the word was used in the New Testament.

But this is an important topic. I've taken to prayerfully pointing out to preachers when they do a 'challenge' at the end of the message and leave out the resurrection and sometimes the crucifixion (trying to come up with a name for it. When I was a kid, there were more 'altar calls', but now they keep the people in the connected seats that replaced the pews.)

When Paul explained the gospel in I Corinthians 15, he included the fact that Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures, that He was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures. Then he starts talking about witnesses, then includes himself and goes into other topics.

Luke 24 contains a good summary from the mouth of Christ, that the Messiah had to suffer, be buried, and rise again from the dead according to the scriptures, and that repentance and remission of sins are to be preached in His name to all nations. He said, 'ye are witnesses of these things.'

In my own lifetime, I've seen evangelism and altar calls go from preaching the cross and (hopefully) the resurrection, with an emphasis on Christ dying for our sins... to a little sermon add on about religion being supposedly bad and relationship good.... so why don't you repeat this prayer to receive Jesus--who I haven't told you about today.

It's as if repeating a prayer to 'receive Christ' is the same as receiving Christ. I would say this approach is based on John 1 where it says that as many as received Him received power to become the sons of God. I'd say that's an influence on the phrase 'receive Christ.' But I think the modern prayer is based on 'monkey see, monkey do', relying on ritual instead of knowledge of scripture, and the tendency of evangelicalism to be reductionist. Preachers grew up with the sinner's prayer ritual, and learned it as it gradually got reduced to exclude the gospel, as it became a little tag on after a message that does not preach the risen Christ.

The sinner's prayer as we know it is about 70 years old. Billy Graham used to preach the death, and resurrection of Christ. He had prayer counselors to counsel people after a meeting, going through points of the gospel, and they had a little prayer at the end of their booklet to serve as a confession of faith where the individual confessed himself as a sinner, acknowledged faith in Christ as Lord and that He died for his (or her) sins and rose again. Many evangelicals adapted the ritual of repeating the prayer as the part that saves instead of the gospel part.

In line with the so-called 'Great Commission' passage in Matthew 28 and the preaching and practice of apostles like Peter and Paul, I believe it is appropriate to offer someone baptism after presenting the gospel, at least if they are ready. I notice Paul did not offer baptism at the Aeropagus while dealing with pagans when he had to start with explaining who God is, different from his ministry to Jews. But he did baptize a jailor in Philippi, no doubt after sufficient explanation.

I could go into evangelical concepts regarding salvation being in internal supernatural transformation versus the 'intellectual' aspect of affirming and believing points of the gospel and historical facts, but tat would make my message even longer.

Yes, "kerygma came to refer to the essentials of the gospel message at sometime after the word was used in the New Testament" is how I use the term, which in the NT meant "proclamation".

I agree with the rest of what you said.

 

[GWH]

1 Tim 2:1-4 is about praying for the lost. It is through prayer and preaching that people come to the knowledge of the truth. ie, Mark 16:15-16, John 3:3-5, Acts 2:4, 33, 36-42, etc.

"I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." 1 Tim 2:1-4

Yes, the first two verses urge prayer for all people, lost and found. Verses 3-4 state the reason or motivation for such praying.

 

[GWH]

FAITH in the SIN OFFERING made by Jesus on the cross.

Yes, as Messiah and Lord.

 

[GWH]

Oh, I'm certain that God disagrees with me, on quite a few topics. But here's the thing friend. When he's ready, and if its necessary, He'll straighten me out. Always has. Always will.

You see, I'm not of the mind that you and I have to agree on everything to be brothers in Christ. Or that its my job to bring you over to my side. That's Gods job.

And while you may be correct. And you absolutely may be, or maybe you're so totally off base that the Good Lord is just sitting up there shaking His head. Either way, I'll tell you what He's not doing. He's not wagging His finger at you, or me.

I'm going to heaven, heck, heaven is here right now, right inside of me. And it might be inside of you. I don't know. What I do know is that Jesus Christ gave me a new heart and a new mind, a living Spirit. And He did every bit of this months before I was baptized.

Now if the gifts of the Lord are without repentance. And they are. Jesus was mine from that moment forward, and I was His.

I walked an isle and said all the right things when I was 10. I got a bible and warm bath. And that's all I got. I confessed with my mouth and even got baptized, but I did not believe in my heart. No salvation in that. 13 years later. Called out to the heavens. Pull me out of this pit and I will serve you all my days. And He did. Even when He knew I wouldn't keep my end of the bargain till many years later.
Did my faith save me? Nope. Did my prayer save me? Nope. Did baptism save me? Again, no.

My friend, my brother. Christ saved me. Christ pulled me out of the pit. Christ gave me a new life. Christ is the reason, all that He did, all that He is now doing on my behalf, that is what saved me, and is keeping me saved. Christ washed me in His blood. Christ baptized me with His Spirit. And yes, as I said, I eventually went down to the river. But I had been walking in the Spirit and proclaiming the Gospel months before that happened.

Romans 6:3-4 - Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

1 Corinthians 12:13
13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

Acts 11:16
16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized withwater, but you will be baptized withthe Holy Spirit.’

Peace.

I appreciate learning your testimony. Mine is different, because I was raised by Christian parents and there never was a time that I did not believe in Christ as savior. Thus, I got dunked at the age of ten because it took that long for me to get enough courage to walk the aisle, and it was very meaningful.

I think water baptism by submersion remains a beautiful rite that portrays the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, but we should think of it as symbolic of our baptism with the Holy Spirit, which in my case seems to have occurred according to God's plan A, because I never rejected faith, and the first time I was tempted to doubt was not until I encountered atheism in my college years.

 

[Wansvic]

....
I think water baptism by submersion remains a beautiful rite that portrays the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, but we should think of it as symbolic of our baptism with the Holy Spirit,...

Paul revealed sins are actually destroyed at the point of obedience to the water command. (see verse 6 below) This coincides with what is expressed in Acts 22:16 and elsewhere in scripture. Also, note the condition stated in verse 5; "IF we are buried with Jesus into his death we shall be also in the likeness of Jesus' resurrection. Paul's "IF" verifies the significance of belief and obedience to the counsel of God to be water baptized in the name of Jesus .

"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? (Paul's words indicate water baptism is not symbolic) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." Romans 6:3-6

 

[presidente]

I appreciate learning your testimony. Mine is different, because I was raised by Christian parents and there never was a time that I did not believe in Christ as savior. Thus, I got dunked at the age of ten because it took that long for me to get enough courage to walk the aisle, and it was very meaningful.

I think water baptism by submersion remains a beautiful rite that portrays the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, but we should think of it as symbolic of our baptism with the Holy Spirit, which in my case seems to have occurred according to God's plan A, because I never rejected faith, and the first time I was tempted to doubt was not until I encountered atheism in my college years.

Colossians 2:12
buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
(NKJV)

Acts 22:16 16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’ (NKJV)

 

[GWH]

Paul revealed sins are actually destroyed at the point of obedience to the water command. (see verse 6 below) This coincides with what is expressed in Acts 22:16 and elsewhere in scripture. Also, note the condition stated in verse 5; "IF we are buried with Jesus into his death we shall be also in the likeness of Jesus' resurrection. Paul's "IF" verifies the significance of belief and obedience to the counsel of God to be water baptized in the name of Jesus .

"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? (Paul's words indicate water baptism is not symbolic) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." Romans 6:3-6

Also CL 2:12, "Having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God..."--oh I see that presidente beat me to this.

 

[Soyeong]

What is God's requirement for salvation (GRFS)?

We can do works that express our faith, such as with the examples of faith listed in Hebrews 11 or with James 2:18 saying that he would show his faith by his works, so the significance of our works is not that they are part of what we are required to have done first in order to become saved, but rather the significance is that our works are the way to express our faith and it is by that faith alone that we are being saved. In Titus 2:14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so doing those works as nothing to do with trying to earn our salvation as the result, but rather God graciously teaching us to do be a doer of those works is the way that He is giving us His gift of salvation, which intrinsically requires our participation.

 

[GWH]

We can do works that express our faith, such as with the examples of faith listed in Hebrews 11 or with James 2:18 saying that he would show his faith by his works, so the significance of our works is not that they are part of what we are required to have done first in order to become saved, but rather the significance is that our works are the way to express our faith and it is by that faith alone that we are being saved. In Titus 2:14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so doing those works as nothing to do with trying to earn our salvation as the result, but rather God graciously teaching us to do be a doer of those works is the way that He is giving us His gift of salvation, which intrinsically requires our participation.

That's right, and may I reiterate the content of saving faith, although we may not understand the whole truth when we first confess/profess it.

The normative way of stating the kerygma/GRFS in the NT is “Accept Christ Jesus as Lord” (as in 2CR 4:5 & CL 2:6). The main points of Christian orthodoxy implicit in this statement can be explained or elaborated as follows:

1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (DT 6:4, JN 3:16, 2THS 1:6), who is both able (2TM 1:12) and willing (1TM 2:3-4) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (RM 3:23, 2TM 3:2-4, CL 3:5), miserable (GL 5:19-21), and hopeless (EPH 2:12) when they reject God’s salvation or Duo of Desirables (JN 3:18).
3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ or the way (means of providing salvation) that God has chosen (JN 3:16, ACTS 16:30-31, PHP 2:9-11), although pre-NT truthseekers could/can learn a proto-gospel (vice the full NT Gospel) via general revelation per RM 1:20.
4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to accept God in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (LK 2:11, JN 14:6, ACTS 16:31), which means trying to obey His commandment to love one another (MT 22:37-40, JN 13:35, RM 13:9)—forever (MT 10:22, PS 113:2).
5. Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (RV 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning God’s Word everyone cooperates fully with His will (RM 8:6-17, GL 6:7-9, EPH 1:13-14, HB 10:36, 12:1, JM 1:2-4).

 

[GWH]

Perhaps y'all haven't thought about this question in detail, so please allow me to go ahead and suggest them.

The normative way of stating the kerygma/GRFS in the NT is “Accept Christ Jesus as Lord” (as in 2CR 4:5 & CL 2:6). The main points of Christian orthodoxy implicit in this statement can be explained or elaborated as follows:

1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (DT 6:4, JN 3:16, 2THS 1:6), who is both able (2TM 1:12) and willing (1TM 2:3-4) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (RM 3:23, 2TM 3:2-4, CL 3:5), miserable (GL 5:19-21), and hopeless (EPH 2:12) when they reject God’s salvation or Duo of Desirables [DOD, heaven & justice] (JN 3:18).
3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ or the way (means of providing salvation) that God has chosen (JN 3:16, ACTS 16:30-31, PHP 2:9-11), although pre-NT truthseekers could/can learn a proto-gospel (vice the full NT Gospel).
4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to accept God in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (LK 2:11, JN 14:6, ACTS 16:31), which means trying to obey His commandment to love one another (MT 22:37-40, JN 13:35, RM 13:9)—forever (MT 10:22, PS 113:2).
5. Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (RV 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning God’s Word everyone cooperates fully with His will (RM 8:6-17, GL 6:7-9, EPH 1:13-14, HB 10:36, 12:1, JM 1:2-4).

Although perfection is not achieved in this life, the necessity of learning the didache in order to strive for perfection indicates the need for perseverance or to keep on learning and growing spiritually until we die physically. Thus, although learning any specific part of the didache is not GRFS, a person who does not “hunger and thirst for righteousness” (MT 5:6) or want to learn “every word that comes from the mouth of God” (MT 4:4) fails the self-examination Paul commanded and Jesus implied (mentioned previously).

If we truly believe in Jesus as Christ, the One who represents God the Father, then we will also accept Him as Lord (LK 2:11) or God the Son (MT 16:16) or God in the human dimension (CL 2:9). When we truly accept Jesus as Lord, we will want to please Him by doing His will (MT 7:21, EPH 5:8-10). Learning the manifold teachings or doctrines describing God’s moral will takes a lifetime. Thus, the need for perseverance/loyalty/remaining faithful, which is as easy or simple as an act of will. Remain faithful until the end.

The fifth point of the creed warrants additional explanation. Just as unsaved sinners do not experience complete hell on earth, saved sinners/saints do not “live happily ever” on this earth when they repent of evil/Satanism. While we look forward to the proverbial “pie in the sky by and by”, we receive only a taste of heaven (HB 6:5) in the here and now.

In order not to become discouraged, Christians need to understand that salvation has three stages or time components. They were saved from ultimate hell at the moment of deciding to accept Jesus as Lord (EPH 1:13, RV 3:20), they are (being) saved or perfected morally while remaining loyal to Jesus (JM 1:3-4), and they will be saved bodily on the day of resurrection (ZCH 14:1-9, 1THS 4:16, cf. 1CR 15:35-55).

The spiritual union between believers and Christ is comparable to marriage (EPH 5:23-32), and just as a husband and wife need to continue their commitment until they part at death, Christians also need to retain saving faith (LK 9:23, 2CR 4:16) as they grow spiritually, learning how to become more like Christ or achieve His fullness. Then they will neither take God’s grace for granted nor repent of their decision to serve Him as Lord. In other words, perseverance is an implicit and integral part of faith; Christians need to persevere in their acceptance of the kerygma and to keep on learning the didache until the day they die (MT 10:22, 2THS 1:3-5, 2PT 1:5-8).

Saying we “need” perseverance prompts this question: Is it possible for a Christian to repudiate his/her saving faith and become apostate or again bound for hell? Before seeking to answer this question, we should remember that although perseverance is an implicit part of the creed, understanding the details of this or any doctrine is not necessary in order to remain saved, because the kerygma is simple enough for a young soul to understand (cf. MT 18:3), and didachaic details can become rather complicated and controversial.

Thus, a Christian needs to be humble or Spirit-filled before tackling such issues, keeping in mind that whichever position a Christian takes on any secondary doctrine, he/she should fellowship with those having a different interpretation who affirm the kerygma both verbally and by typically manifesting divine love.

 

[GWH]

The issue of apostasy has been debated ever since Augustine of Hippo developed his doctrine of predestination about A.D. 400. Romans 8:38-39 seems to say that it is impossible for a Christian to fail to persevere. Paul writes: “For I am convinced that neither death nor life… nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” We also read in John 10:27-29 that Jesus said, “My sheep listen to my voice… no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.” (Also, see EPH 1:11-14, 1JN 2:19, ACTS 17:26, PS 135:6 & PR 21:1.)

However, there are numerous verses in the NT which indicate that it is possible for a believer intentionally or willfully to separate him/herself from Christ (cf. GL 5:1 & RV 12:9). The classic passage that teaches the possibility of apostasy is Hebrews 6:4-6: “It is impossible for those who have… shared in the Holy Spirit… if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again.” Another verse in this vein is Galatians 5:4: “You who are trying to be justified by law… have fallen away from grace.” (The reader should also see RM 11:22, 1CR 15:2, CL 1:22-23, 2THS 1:4-5, 2TM 2:12, HB 3:6&14, 10:35-36, JM 1:12, 2PT 1:10-11, 2:20, 1JN 2:24-25 and RV 2:10. These Scriptures are quoted at the end of this part.)

I hope that the crickets indicates general unanimity regarding this elaboration of GRFS, so I will continue by sharing my understanding of the need for perseverance in case you have missed it on some other threads.

Some Christians say that the biblical exhortations to persevere do not imply the possibility of apostasy but this interpretation is problematic for three reasons:

First, the plain sense of many verses of Scripture including those listed in the preceding parentheses suggests that it is possible for a believer to commit apostasy, and saying that this under-standing is false seems to make God tricky.

Second, God’s plan of salvation from the miserable consequences of choosing to reject Him makes sense only if people are morally accountable or free, and free will is meaningful only if a person can choose between essentially opposite options, as in Deuteronomy 30:19: “I set before you today life and death, blessings and curses.” This is the same choice that was set before Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden (GN 2:16-17) and before that to Satan in heaven (LK 10:18). I see no reason to think that this choice is not eternal, because it is this choice which creates: free will (faith in Christ or antichrist), moral responsibility (love the Lord or hate Him) and meaningful life (taste of heaven now and hope for eternal joy rather than misery now and ultimately hell). And 1 Corinthians 13:13 says “these three remain”.

Third, Jesus said “The truth will set you free” (JN 8:32), and “If the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.” (JN 8:36) As a disciple of Christ I feel free, and I find every day fraught with significance as I fight on God’s side against evil in a war that has ultimate consequences for the destiny of my soul. Spiritual freedom is in Christ.

If Christians retain the same freedom they had as non-Christians to accept or reject Christ’s Lordship, then the second most important truth to learn in life after the Gospel/kerygma is the “necessity” of persevering in accepting Christ as Lord and in learning God’s Word (LGW) until we die in order to achieve our God-given purpose in life: the fullness of Christ or spiritual maturity. [LGW signifies this truth.]

 

[GWH]

The doctrine of perseverance or LGW serves as a bridge from the kerygma (creed) to the didache (lifelong spiritual growth) or from spiritual birth to maturity, so it is logical to harmonize various biblical statements on this issue before proceeding to other didachaic topics. The passages cited previously that seem to support predestination may be harmonized with those supporting free will or perseverance as follows:

1. Romans 8:38-39 – “anything else” refers to powers other than one’s own will.

2. John 10:27-29 – being “unsnatchable” does not disallow a person from choosing to jump out of the “Father’s hand”.

3. Ephesians 1:11-14 – what is “predestined” is God’s plan to choose or elect anyone who desires to be “in him” or to satisfy GRFS. Thus, being “marked in him with a seal” does not abrogate moral free will (cf. 2PT 1:10f).

4. 1 John 2:19 – when synthesized with verse 24 must mean that those who repudiate their Faith do not eternally “belong”.

5. Psalm 135:6 – in light of “volitional verses” (such as DT 30:19 & MT 23:37) means that God “pleases” to permit limited free will.

6. Proverbs 21:1 – in order not to make God responsible for the sins cited in the rest of the chapter must mean that the “king’s heart” or will is choosing to cooperate with the Lord’s “hand” or directions.

 

[GWH]

Scriptures that teach the possibility of apostasy include the following:

MT 10:22, “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”

RM 11:22, “Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”

1CR 15:2, “By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.”

GL 5:4, “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”

CL 1:22-23, “But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”

2THS 1:4-5, “Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.”

2TM 2:12, “If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;”

HB 3:6&14, “But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast… We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”

HB 10:26-36, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”

JM 1:12, “Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.”

2PT 1:10-11, “Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”

2PT 2:20, “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.”

1JN 2:24-25, “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.”

JUDE 21, “Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.”

RV 2:10, “Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.”


HB 6:4-6, “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”

 

[GWH]

Because the doctrine of perseverance/apostasy has been debated on other threads, I see no need to beat a dead horse and will move on to what I refer to as Spiritual Dynamics.

Perseverance serves as the bridge from GRFS (the kerygma) to learning God's Word (LGW) regarding various teachings (the didache) subsequent to learning the Gospel. Jesus taught that the evidence of saving faith or satisfying GRFS is working faith or helping humanity (JN 13:35). Disciples of Jesus (or Believers) tend to love and help others, not by virtue of their own goodness, but because they are moved or motivated by the indwelling loving Spirit of the Lord (1JN 4:7-8).

Humans can never become good enough to earn or merit salvation as a reward for right behavior. A person cannot be good by doing good. Those who try to attain heaven by imitating Christ-like behavior without accepting Christ’s Lordship and atonement actually go in the opposite direction (GL 5:4), so we should cooperate with God’s Way.

No one achieves moral perfection in this life, but no one who lacks divine love will reap eternal life with God (GL 6:7-8). Thus, a person who claims to be godly but who is behaving in an ungodly (unloving, untruthful) manner may be in one of the following categories:

a. a normally loving person observed during a rare moment when he/she acted uncharacteristically (PHP 3:12-16),

b. an immature Believer, who is making progress–you should have known him/her a year ago! (1CR 3:1-3, EPH 4:11-15)

c. a truthseeker who has not yet learned the correct interpretation of God’s Word (1CR 6:9-11, EPH 5:8-9), or

d. a pseudo-Christian (MT 7:21), who may affirm morality while rejecting its divine rationale.

 

[Blade]

Why ask something that He already answered? John 3:16-17. Yes today believers can add so much more weight, burden to new believers... He does not. We have no say here.. we do not save anyone. Our words do not save anyone. That new man which only a GOD creates.. yeah He did it. Some just a thought.. some cry out beg. Some are scared into be saved as in turn or burn yet He does not will not turn away anyone that comes to Him. Anyone everyone that calls on His name shall be saved period

 

[GWH]

Why ask something that He already answered? John 3:16-17. Yes today believers can add so much more weight, burden to new believers... He does not. We have no say here.. we do not save anyone. Our words do not save anyone. That new man which only a GOD creates.. yeah He did it. Some just a thought.. some cry out beg. Some are scared into be saved as in turn or burn yet He does not will not turn away anyone that comes to Him. Anyone everyone that calls on His name shall be saved period

Blade,

I am not sure I understand you clearly, but if you are asking "Why explain GRFS?" it is because the NT does so in many verses other than JN 3:16-17. I am trying to help everyone sew as many Scriptures on this topic together with spiritual thread as they can by using the gift of editing.

We have DO have say here on CC, and hopefully what we say will help save someone, if our words are inspired by the HS.

Yes, "Anyone everyone that calls on His name shall be saved", (JL 2:32, RM 10:13), but NOT "period". God had a LOT more to say through both Joel and Paul than just that.

 

[GWH]

Because the doctrine of perseverance/apostasy has been debated on other threads, I see no need to beat a dead horse and will move on to what I refer to as Spiritual Dynamics.

Perseverance serves as the bridge from GRFS (the kerygma) to learning God's Word (LGW) regarding various teachings (the didache) subsequent to learning the Gospel. Jesus taught that the evidence of saving faith or satisfying GRFS is working faith or helping humanity (JN 13:35). Disciples of Jesus (or Believers) tend to love and help others, not by virtue of their own goodness, but because they are moved or motivated by the indwelling loving Spirit of the Lord (1JN 4:7-8).

Humans can never become good enough to earn or merit salvation as a reward for right behavior. A person cannot be good by doing good. Those who try to attain heaven by imitating Christ-like behavior without accepting Christ’s Lordship and atonement actually go in the opposite direction (GL 5:4), so we should cooperate with God’s Way.

No one achieves moral perfection in this life, but no one who lacks divine love will reap eternal life with God (GL 6:7-8). Thus, a person who claims to be godly but who is behaving in an ungodly (unloving, untruthful) manner may be in one of the following categories:

a. a normally loving person observed during a rare moment when he/she acted uncharacteristically (PHP 3:12-16),

b. an immature Believer, who is making progress–you should have known him/her a year ago! (1CR 3:1-3, EPH 4:11-15)

c. a truthseeker who has not yet learned the correct interpretation of God’s Word (1CR 6:9-11, EPH 5:8-9), or

d. a pseudo-Christian (MT 7:21), who may affirm morality while rejecting its divine rationale.

Paul listed some sins he implied genuine Christians would not typically commit (in 1CR 6:9-10), saying: “Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived, neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.” Apparently, although a new Christian might commit such sins occasionally, it is inconceivable (because antithetical to NT teaching) that a mature Christian would commit them so typically that the person could be classified as an adulterer, for example. Atheists might try to practice the “Golden Rule”, but the key issue for them on judgment day will be explaining what good reason they had for rejecting God rather than glorifying Him as the One who determines what is good/golden.

Sinners can overcome selfishness only by becoming one with Christ via faith in Him/God as Lord and thereby sharing His goodness because of union with His/God’s Holy Spirit. This spiritual union is denoted by references to those who have saving faith as children of God the Father (RM 8:14-16). This is why Christianity is a relationship with God motivated by gratitude for God’s grace (PS 100, EPH 2:4-8) rather than a legalistic religion of working to merit God’s mercy because of fear of punishment.

 

[GWH]

I will now attempt to explain the dynamics of the relationship between God and truthseekers or how the Holy Spirit of God interacts and communicates with humans.

Humans are born innocent babies with the potential to attain the stage of accountability, comparable to when God commanded Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (GN 2:17). At this stage, a person’s interaction with the Spirit of God begins, because he/she has become a living soul or embodied mind/spirit (GN 2:7). (The spiritual status of humans before they reach the stage of moral accountability is not clearly explained in Scripture. Surely they would not go to hell, but on what basis would their destiny be heaven? Perhaps they share the fate of amoral animals.)

A person’s fellowship with God begins in a primitive and impersonal way when a soul becomes a truthseeker, because God’s Spirit is truth (1JN 5:6). The commitment to seek and have faith in the truth as revealed is a primitive “pre-theistic” satisfaction of GRFS (MT 7:7), thus the person begins a saving relationship with God although he/she does not know it (RM 1:17). As a truthseeker at any time in history and place in the world meditates upon his/her experiences, Paul indicates that they will be able to discern God’s being and love (RM 1:20, 2:14-15, GL 5:14) by means of what theologians call “natural or general revelation”.

When truthseekers recognize the reality of God as the Creator of the universe who has a moral requirement, if they decide to become theists and worship Him, they become like Abraham and other OT believers, and their fellowship deepens or becomes personal. Presumably, God provides such believers the opportunity to hear the gospel of Christ in a pre-NT and pre-Abrahamic form (cf. the proto-gospel), so they may repent of sin and accept the pre-incarnate One God/Christ as Lord (JN 8:42, 1JN 1:3-4).