The Law Debacle Resolved

[JaumeJ]

Not at all. Paul declares there is no other gospel than that delivered by Jesus Christ, and if any man preach another, not that there is another, let him be cursed. No, everything Paul teaches is in agreement with Jesus Christ, and any time it may seem to conflict, it is not being understood. I will add this is the attitude all must have when reading Paul's writings and it seems to confuse them, wait on the Lord, and all will come. Meanwhile take a lesson from Mary, when she did not understand something, she would keep it in her heart. I believe she did this because she knew understanding would come.

Really asking (as opposed to judging), are you saying Paul didn't speak for God? What Paul said that is still in the Bible IS what Jesus said too, since it's all inspired by God. (I suspect we're agreeing, but I'm still checking just to make sure.)

 

[JaumeJ]

Beautifully stated, and I will probably use the teaching of filling a full cup....brilliant...........thank you and God bless you always, amen.

Just so you know... to some on here "stay on topic" is exactly what they do all the time. The point they miss is the topic isn't always about their prove-a-point. They think it is, and, because of that, according to them they are always on topic. To try and dissuade is like trying to fill a full cup.

Speaking from experience. I don't try to fill full cups. I try to pull some away who aren't really buying their cup is full of prove-a-point, but they don't realize they're mixing in with a crowd of prove-a-pointers.

 

[JaumeJ]

I do not except any wrong doing in indicating when a person is deliberately hurtful, or twisting what is being shared purposely,. Never have I indicated that by attempting to obey I am earning salvation. This accusation comes up repeatedly from the same sources without foundation, and it also smarks what the op is stating, and what children of obedience do.

I will repeat what I have already posted. Children of obedience are very much like the publican who asked God to forgive him, a sinner. After earnestly asking this, they are justified. We say to our Father, "We cannot possibly be perfect in obeying yy the law, try as we may(as we do.)" You know what He says? He says, "Of course not, this is why you have Jesus Chrisas your Savior." We then go away justified, for we are saved by grace. No on seems to understand this at all, perverting, and it is a perversion, being children of obedience into being under the law, casting doubt on being obedient. This is evil, for it is spoken without substantiation of what they are saying. Quite a difference for out of ignorance.

Forgive my tardiness in responding at times. I am sleeping while most of you are awake. God bless you...

Shhhh! She is the one bringing us all together. It really helps if you disparage others and call them "the enemy" while telling you no one is should disparage others and call them "the enemy," doncha know.

(I am snarky sometimes, but at least I'm willing to say when I am snarky. Above was pure snarky.)

 

[JaumeJ]

We always bless our enemies, and those who curse us, but the Bible also teaches us not to bless what they do, for this would be participating in their sin, and I know you do not want to participate in the ins of others. God bles syou.

But the bible commands us to bless those who persecute us. Jesus himself said these words....at least to pray for them....same thing really.

 

[DP]

You're close but no cigar. I agree that we are certainly not saved by the works of the law. That is clearly vain. You err in one point however, because man's self made, hand written ordinances are what God's word speaks against, even though in some scriptures it sounds as if Paul is actually speaking against God's ordinances.

Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; Colossians 2:14

Read Acts 24:14 and you will notice that Paul worshiped by believing all things written in the law. This was not his works, but rather God's works in him by the faith he was given.

Think about what God's word reveals by his ordinances, and conclude in your heart that it was given to reveal the enmity that was nailed to the cross and slain. Yes, the Word of God was nailed to the cross but that didn't make Him wrong. The spiritual aspects of the temple ordinances still apply in Christ, Him being the High Priest who will never die. Hebrews 8:13 The physical (flesh/carnal) of those ordinances are gone however.

Ephesians 2:14-16
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, "even" (added word not in the original) the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

God didn't speak into existence a wall of partition between Him and us. He revealed to us, by His law, what built the wall of partition called enmity. That''s what was crucified.

God did not say some things that He had to kill later. Neither did God speak into existence sin and death in order to bring life. His law reveals it, not creates it.

I have to strongly disagree with you, because the old covenant animal sacrifices were part of those old 'ordinances' in the law that our Lord Jesus nailed to His cross. Just because Apostle Paul said he believed everything written does not mean he failed to recognize the end of those old blood ordinances in the old covenant.

 

[DP]

It's not just the wicked who need it. As Kefa quoted in the end of Romans 7, we're still fleshy. Our flesh still wants to crawl right back into our previously-beloved darkness. We are not perfected in the Law. We can't do it. Even with God in us, we don't do it perfectly, but without it we cannot see what goodness looks like. To me, the law is Jesus' shadow. It's not Jesus, but it's a good outline of what he looks like. And, when we're off doing our own thing, even still, and then realize we slipped off on our own, it is there to tell me which way Jesus is in front of me, when I am so far away I can't actually see him.

We need him all -- his deeds, his spirit, his law to keep us pointed in the right direction -- to God himself.

I think the number one problem on this site is people are looking for the easy way out. "Accept Jesus and I no longer have to worry about anything, including the law. Especially the law." Then they pridefully point at themselves as the example of life in Christ.

This is surface crap, and they think they're doing something wonderful because they're wearing the proper outfit.

But Jesus isn't merely an outfit. To follow him is to follow him down to our core. The reality is we don't! Damn us for daring to say that out loud on this site!

I do not have Jesus down to my core, although he has penetrated to my core. I NEED more of him, because I too can be a hypocrite. The law points me to him. His spirit enables me. He showed me the way. He is the way. Until we can admit that freely without the yabber-jabbers constantly trying to convince us the surface is good enough, there will be division. THE FREAKING SURFACE AIN'T GOOD ENOUGH!

And because it's not, and they know it, it has become much easier to prove-a-point then deal with that. So the prove-a-pointers gang up and ascend every time some are actually talking seriously about God. But we're supposed to be respecting them for doing that.

Sorry. I never will.

I understand you, and mostly agree. Knowledge of sin comes by the law. So yes, it is necessary to point out our sin, and show us that we cannot ever be perfect in keeping it, and that we need The Saviour. Apostle Paul said that we all were concluded under sin so that Salvation could be to those who believe (Galatians). So yes, it definitely has a purpose in pointing to God's Plan of Salvation through His Son Jesus Christ.

But more in a practical sense is how I interpret what Paul said in 1 Tim.1:8-11. He didn't list the unpardonable sin which will not be forgiven, not in this world nor in the next. Thus God's law still has a purpose for His Church today, not to condemn those in the Church which walk by The Spirit, but to punish the wicked who follow not after Christ. Those things Paul said are not going to go away at Christ's future Judgment either, as he showed in the Galatians 5 version.

 

[Sirk]

We always bless our enemies, and those who curse us, but the Bible also teaches us not to bless what they do, for this would be participating in their sin, and I know you do not want to participate in the ins of others. God bles syou.

How does one differentiate from man made rules and God made rules? It appears to me that there are more gray areas than a lot would care to admit....ie....something that causes discomfort in one suddenly becomes the sin of another. Of course there are indisputable truths and I am sure that we can agree on many, but...there is more than one way to expose sin. God bless you as well.

 

[JaumeJ]

It is all in the Book.

How does one differentiate from man made rules and God made rules? It appears to me that there are more gray areas than a lot would care to admit....ie....something that causes discomfort in one suddenly becomes the sin of another. Of course there are indisputable truths and I am sure that we can agree on many, but...there is more than one way to expose sin. God bless you as well.

 

[Sirk]

It is all in the Book.

Well of course it is. Everything in the bible is true.... but not everything that is true is in the bible.

 

[atwhatcost]

I do not except any wrong doing in indicating when a person is deliberately hurtful, or twisting what is being shared purposely,. Never have I indicated that by attempting to obey I am earning salvation. This accusation comes up repeatedly from the same sources without foundation, and it also smarks what the op is stating, and what children of obedience do.

I will repeat what I have already posted. Children of obedience are very much like the publican who asked God to forgive him, a sinner. After earnestly asking this, they are justified. We say to our Father, "We cannot possibly be perfect in obeying yy the law, try as we may(as we do.)" You know what He says? He says, "Of course not, this is why you have Jesus Chrisas your Savior." We then go away justified, for we are saved by grace. No on seems to understand this at all, perverting, and it is a perversion, being children of obedience into being under the law, casting doubt on being obedient. This is evil, for it is spoken without substantiation of what they are saying. Quite a difference for out of ignorance.

Forgive my tardiness in responding at times. I am sleeping while most of you are awake. God bless you...

Two completely different things (unrelated):
1. What is "smarks?" Or, if that's a typo, what was it supposed to be? (I keep thinking I'm fluent in typos, but didn't get that one, and I'm pretty sure you're not talking wrestler's fan bases. lol)

2. I'm an insomniac, so I'm usually up when Americans are sleeping. lol

 

[atwhatcost]

How does one differentiate from man made rules and God made rules? It appears to me that there are more gray areas than a lot would care to admit....ie....something that causes discomfort in one suddenly becomes the sin of another. Of course there are indisputable truths and I am sure that we can agree on many, but...there is more than one way to expose sin. God bless you as well.

Learn God's rules? (Sounds like I'm being snarky, but I'm not.) That's why I'm really into studying the Law, so I do know what God commanded and don't get swept up in 21st century deviations of that.

An example of 21st century deviation: "Tolerance." The new word for love.

Meh. Not even. But people will tell us we're supposed to tolerate everyone and everything.

 

[atwhatcost]

I understand you, and mostly agree. Knowledge of sin comes by the law. So yes, it is necessary to point out our sin, and show us that we cannot ever be perfect in keeping it, and that we need The Saviour. Apostle Paul said that we all were concluded under sin so that Salvation could be to those who believe (Galatians). So yes, it definitely has a purpose in pointing to God's Plan of Salvation through His Son Jesus Christ.

But more in a practical sense is how I interpret what Paul said in 1 Tim.1:8-11. He didn't list the unpardonable sin which will not be forgiven, not in this world nor in the next. Thus God's law still has a purpose for His Church today, not to condemn those in the Church which walk by The Spirit, but to punish the wicked who follow not after Christ. Those things Paul said are not going to go away at Christ's future Judgment either, as he showed in the Galatians 5 version.

Re: last sentence
They're not? You don't think we hit perfection after Judgement? Or did I misread something? If I didn't, can you fill your thought out further? Obviously, I'm confused.

 

[JaumeJ]

Why am I a bit touchy about unfounded accusations of being "a legalist," and under the law? Most recently this same flock swooped in and among them they went so far as to say I refuse the Blood of Jesus Christ. I asked one of them to confess His Blood as his salvation, to no avail.

My salvation is because of and by the Blood of Jesus Christ. He is my salvation and the only salvation of any. I bow the knee and confess daily He is Lord.........This is my id as a believer of Jesus Christ.

I will not forget being told I deny His precious Blood, so when a person starts with "You are under the law." I will always remember the charge following. It is evil, it is cruel, and it is a lie........all products of Satan. No denying,.

All who believe they are children of obedience must believe Jesus Christ first, for we cannot obey perfectly as did our Savior, but we are expected and commanded to attempt our best until God, Himself, finishes sthat work He began in each of us.

Again, yes, it is evil to tell someone who is as I, and there a many, that they are under the law, it seems to me they are also thinking the evil second charge, not accepting the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.
To smark is a negative action or a negative thought verbalized with no foundation........

Two completely different things (unrelated):
1. What is "smarks?" Or, if that's a typo, what was it supposed to be? (I keep thinking I'm fluent in typos, but didn't get that one, and I'm pretty sure you're not talking wrestler's fan bases. lol)

2. I'm an insomniac, so I'm usually up when Americans are sleeping. lol

 

[PeterJens]

Hello. I believe the law is good, I believe we can be righteous, I believe we are not under condemnation but live under grace.

Is it those who believe in thought sin have ended being too legalistic and self condemning so resolving the issue by being complete libertarians.?

 

[oldthennew]

I'm afraid to answer you honestly for fear that you will condemn me. Not that I would believe you if you did...just that I got better things to do than get crossways with people on an internet forum.

============================================================

sirk,
you may also not believe what we are saying to you, but my husband and I are over-joyed that
you have decided not to get 'crossways' with people anymore.

if you can do this, one need never worry about being wrong-fully condemned -

as it is written,
'Perfect love casts out all fear'..............

this would be a true sign humility and growing in Christ.

 

[gotime]

If you can't do what Jesus did and taught then how is Jesus living in you?

 

[just-me]

You're close but no cigar. I agree that we are certainly not saved by the works of the law. That is clearly vain. You err in one point however, because man's self made, hand written ordinances are what God's word speaks against, even though in some scriptures it sounds as if Paul is actually speaking against God's ordinances.

Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; Colossians 2:14

Read Acts 24:14 and you will notice that Paul worshiped by believing all things written in the law. This was not his works, but rather God's works in him by the faith he was given.

Think about what God's word reveals by his ordinances, and conclude in your heart that it was given to reveal the enmity that was nailed to the cross and slain. Yes, the Word of God was nailed to the cross but that didn't make Him wrong. The spiritual aspects of the temple ordinances still apply in Christ, Him being the High Priest who will never die. Hebrews 8:13 The physical (flesh/carnal) of those ordinances are gone however.

Ephesians 2:14-16
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, "even" (added word not in the original) the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

God didn't speak into existence a wall of partition between Him and us. He revealed to us, by His law, what built the wall of partition called enmity. That''s what was crucified.

God did not say some things that He had to kill later. Neither did God speak into existence sin and death in order to bring life. His law reveals it, not creates it.

I have to strongly disagree with you, because the old covenant animal sacrifices were part of those old 'ordinances' in the law that our Lord Jesus nailed to His cross. Just because Apostle Paul said he believed everything written does not mean he failed to recognize the end of those old blood ordinances in the old covenant.

I think you might have missed what I highlighted in read from the post you strongly disagreed with. Further, I will quote Paul and also Jesus Christ.

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.Romans 12:1

And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. Luke 9:23

The spiritual aspects of the temple ordinances still apply in Christ, Him being the High Priest who will never die. Hebrews 8:13 The physical (flesh/carnal) of those ordinances are gone however.

 

[just-me]

Personally, I think Ben had a point. You push the envelope, place the bull's eye on you on multiple posts, just about clogging up the board with them, and then act like you have no idea why everyone is up in arms. Don't play the victim.

(I'm not a victim either.)

Why contend with unchanging, instigated diversity? Romans 16:17

He's been off my ignore list for 3 days now. Haven't heard a peep from the man since he knew I took him off. No PM or nothing. There is something else however that is new to me.
Conversation Between BenFTW and just-me

You ever seen something like this before? I haven't

 

[just-me]

There is something ironic in CC that has been around ever since I joined. But it is getting more pronounced, so I will step back and let the stories in the 4 “Gospels” define the precedence of events, as we remember them, in comparison to the tactics the Pharisees used who had a major problem with Jesus Christ.

There is something inverted in CC that more and more people are becoming aware of lately, and that is that these same Pharisaical tactics are noticed here in the same “precedence of events” recorded in scripture. This is clearly bothering the stalkers in that there have been threads started to disparage, and parry the obvious.

The records in the Gospels clearly tell us the the Pharisees were consistently confronting Jesus, trying to catch Him in a verbal trap and dispute so all those in the near proximity would come to the false conclusion that Jesus was wrong in what He taught. The Pharisees were beginning to lose their notoriety, and that's what lead to our Saviors death.

In CC there are some who are doing the exact same thing, attempting to call those that they follow around from thread to thread a Pharisee, Judaizer, HRM person, legalizer, etc. with an obvious purpose, and that is to stop esteeming the entire Bible, and every word of God as relevant to the believer in Christ. At first this was a little hard for me to understand what the real deal was but it isn't anymore.

There are some that just cannot bear the thought that “Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God,” as Jesus quoted the law to Satan. Deuteronomy 8:3

Why? The word of God is seen as limited and not everlasting according to the Spirit of truth.

 

[Kefa54]

Off and on I have been coming here sense May 16, 2010. Names have changed. Same old stuff. ( I guess we got way off topic)

Ecclesiastes 1:9-What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done; there is nothing new under the sun.

There is something ironic in CC that has been around ever since I joined. But it is getting more pronounced, so I will step back and let the stories in the 4 “Gospels” define the precedence of events, as we remember them, in comparison to the tactics the Pharisees used who had a major problem with Jesus Christ.

There is something inverted in CC that more and more people are becoming aware of lately, and that is that these same Pharisaical tactics are noticed here in the same “precedence of events” recorded in scripture. This is clearly bothering the stalkers in that there have been threads started to disparage, and parry the obvious.

The records in the Gospels clearly tell us the the Pharisees were consistently confronting Jesus, trying to catch Him in a verbal trap and dispute so all those in the near proximity would come to the false conclusion that Jesus was wrong in what He taught. The Pharisees were beginning to lose their notoriety, and that's what lead to our Saviors death.

In CC there are some who are doing the exact same thing, attempting to call those that they follow around from thread to thread a Pharisee, Judaizer, HRM person, legalizer, etc. with an obvious purpose, and that is to stop esteeming the entire Bible, and every word of God as relevant to the believer in Christ. At first this was a little hard for me to understand what the real deal was but it isn't anymore.

There are some that just cannot bear the thought that “Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God,” as Jesus quoted the law to Satan. Deuteronomy 8:3

Why? The word of God is seen as limited and not everlasting according to the Spirit of truth.