The Law Debacle Resolved

[atwhatcost]

Jesus Christ, the Good Shepherd, had two flocks, the original comprised of teh Children of Israel, and another flock, gentiles, whom He was to gather with the original flock.

He was born a Jew, lived as a Jew, and died the King of the Jews. He is our King.

He is teh Gate of the enemies of the Children of Israel, that being gentiles.

It seems tome if we have entered the Gate promised to Abrahams's descendants we are joining those inside. If we are subjects of teh King of the Jews, we are all Jews, and if we are to follow after Him in our lives we are to live as did He.

Keep in mind when Leah named Judah, she di so because she said, I will now praise YIah (Yahweh). This last phrase is more or the definition of the name, Judah, from which we have the shortened version Jew.

So if Jesus Christ is not your Example, if He is not you King, you do not praise God etc., then perhaps you are not Jewish.

I like taking it back to Noah's blessings to his three boys. Shem got The LORD God and the Canaans were his servants. (The forerunner of the Israelites.) I'm not of his branch. I'm of Japheph's branch. (The forerunner of the Gentiles.) I get to live in Shem's tent and Canaan is my servant. Not my tent, but my home now.

Gen. 9: 25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.26 And he said, Blessed be the Lord God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
27 God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

I might not be the original branch, but my home is still with The Vine. (No idea who Canaan is today though, unless that's the world. If it is, they're not serving well. lol)

 

[JaumeJ]

The Word teaches in no uncertain terms that the nations will serve Israel (the Israel of New Jerusalem.)

In my post on Jesus being a Jew, I had started it twice, omitting by accident the part where I said because I am sensitive on this subject I will depart from my own OP. Forgive me for this, but I do believe all who believe Jesus Christ are Jewish by translation, and also, I do not care for anything that smacks of being anti-Semite.

This should be another thread.

 

[gotime]

Sorry to hear you're unwilling to fight the good fight. God wins!

Not what you testified earlier saying you are still a slave to the law of sin and headed to death.

Just to remind you that you did say that:

I disagree. I'm in this state to this day:
Rom. 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:23 but I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity under the law of sin which is in my members.
24 Wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death?

 

[just-me]

Pretty much. The law was Jewish. I am not Jewish.

Jesus Christ, the Good Shepherd, had two flocks, the original comprised of teh Children of Israel, and another flock, gentiles, whom He was to gather with the original flock.

He was born a Jew, lived as a Jew, and died the King of the Jews. He is our King.

He is teh Gate of the enemies of the Children of Israel, that being gentiles.

It seems tome if we have entered the Gate promised to Abrahams's descendants we are joining those inside. If we are subjects of teh King of the Jews, we are all Jews, and if we are to follow after Him in our lives we are to live as did He.

Keep in mind when Leah named Judah, she di so because she said, I will now praise YIah (Yahweh). This last phrase is more or the definition of the name, Judah, from which we have the shortened version Jew.

So if Jesus Christ is not your Example, if He is not you rKing, you do not praise God etc., then perhaps you are not Jewish.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Romans 1:16

Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: Romans 2:9-10

Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. John 4:22

For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. Romasn 10:12

Disagreements in the ranks of the church is caused by the rejection of scripture. I was told yesterday that by quoting Acts 24:14 and Galatians 3:24-25 that I was quoting out of context even though they are both recorded words for the same apostle. Go figure.

 

[Kefa54]

I don't understand your questions.

Why won't you answer the questions I specifically asked you and then directed you too?

(Why are we asking questions constantly when we weren't before? lol)

 

[Kefa54]

I found #113. It pretty much proves my point. I didn't go there because I was trying to figure out the self righteous follow the law teachings here.

I have been to synagogue many times. This whole thread sounds just like Torah study.
At one time I studied Jewish Roots in Christianity.

Kefa

Kefa

 

[PeterJens]

I like Pauls description of what he preached

I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds.
Acts 26:20

Showing you have repented by your deeds. So your deeds demonstrate the change of heart, not justify yourself.

I am trying to get Pauls argument. It appears to be, though the law is useful, it works merely as a measure of righteousness, not its source. If given to an un-righteous people it will demonstrate their failure, but to the righteous it will demonstrate their achievement.

So Paul develops the theme we are slaves to righteousness, obedient to doing good. The law simply echos this has been achieved. But the law in the Mosaic sense is a the shadow, so much is not relevent other than demonstrating the great work Jesus is doing in tearing down the barrier between holiness and humanness.

I really do understand the problem though. When I was a teenager, I accepted the theology of christianity, but it was like a formula but at a distance rather than in myself. Slowly the Lord pointed out my tendency to conform, to be part of the group, to take on the show and just accept things, rather than be a personal realisation. Over a series of weeks reading a book of the sufferings of Christ it became very personal. I understood how hard it was to choose the path and walk it against all the human ignorance and stupidity and still carry on. I was bowled over, undone, broken. How could I compare or even say my conformity or few words meant anything?

Righteousness or doing the right thing is not a thing you choose to do. It is because you heart shows you this is the way to deal with the situation no matter the cost. Now to those without this faith or love, it is just failure, because they do not have the power and do not know why. So it will be always with the religious without inspiration or heart. And unfortunately at times that includes all of us.

So I do not understand people talking legalism and then relating this to the pharisees. I do not see people here being hypocrites or even having a valid argument about not living a righteous life. So without scriptural foundation, if they say the cannot live righteously, they need to question their understanding of salvation and following Jesus and what their salvation experience actually was.

 

[JaumeJ]

Official: All may continue posting on whatever pops into their minds. It is interesting reading, and much is edifying and uplifting. Thank you all for your commentary...........j

 

[KJV1611]

I like Pauls description of what he preached

I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds.
Acts 26:20

Showing you have repented by your deeds. So your deeds demonstrate the change of heart, not justify yourself.

I am trying to get Pauls argument. It appears to be, though the law is useful, it works merely as a measure of righteousness, not its source. If given to an un-righteous people it will demonstrate their failure, but to the righteous it will demonstrate their achievement.

So Paul develops the theme we are slaves to righteousness, obedient to doing good. The law simply echos this has been achieved. But the law in the Mosaic sense is a the shadow, so much is not relevent other than demonstrating the great work Jesus is doing in tearing down the barrier between holiness and humanness.

I really do understand the problem though. When I was a teenager, I accepted the theology of christianity, but it was like a formula but at a distance rather than in myself. Slowly the Lord pointed out my tendency to conform, to be part of the group, to take on the show and just accept things, rather than be a personal realisation. Over a series of weeks reading a book of the sufferings of Christ it became very personal. I understood how hard it was to choose the path and walk it against all the human ignorance and stupidity and still carry on. I was bowled over, undone, broken. How could I compare or even say my conformity or few words meant anything?

Righteousness or doing the right thing is not a thing you choose to do. It is because you heart shows you this is the way to deal with the situation no matter the cost. Now to those without this faith or love, it is just failure, because they do not have the power and do not know why. So it will be always with the religious without inspiration or heart. And unfortunately at times that includes all of us.

So I do not understand people talking legalism and then relating this to the pharisees. I do not see people here being hypocrites or even having a valid argument about not living a righteous life. So without scriptural foundation, if they say the cannot live righteously, they need to question their understanding of salvation and following Jesus and what their salvation experience actually was.

What exactly do you mean by live righteously? No sin?

 

[just-me]

I like Pauls description of what he preached

I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds.
Acts 26:20

Showing you have repented by your deeds. So your deeds demonstrate the change of heart, not justify yourself.

I am trying to get Pauls argument. It appears to be, though the law is useful, it works merely as a measure of righteousness, not its source. If given to an un-righteous people it will demonstrate their failure, but to the righteous it will demonstrate their achievement.

So Paul develops the theme we are slaves to righteousness, obedient to doing good. The law simply echos this has been achieved. But the law in the Mosaic sense is a the shadow, so much is not relevent other than demonstrating the great work Jesus is doing in tearing down the barrier between holiness and humanness.

There is a subtlety that the adversary is using to cause people to totally miss a very important concept that everything written in the law reveals the epitome of God's character that He wants us to notice about Him. By rejecting even a smidgen, we can inadvertently take His name in vain. God fervently desires us to see Him in the reality He has revealed of Himself to us.

The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law. Deuteronomy 29:29

 

[Kefa54]

I lost interest in JaumeJ posts after he got snotty with Ember. Snotty is not a fruit of the Spirit. It kind of kills one witness for me.

Kefa

Why won't you answer the questions I specifically asked you and then directed you too?

(Why are we asking questions constantly when we weren't before? lol)

 

[Grandpa]

I like Pauls description of what he preached

I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds.
Acts 26:20

Showing you have repented by your deeds. So your deeds demonstrate the change of heart, not justify yourself.

I am trying to get Pauls argument. It appears to be, though the law is useful, it works merely as a measure of righteousness, not its source. If given to an un-righteous people it will demonstrate their failure, but to the righteous it will demonstrate their achievement.

So Paul develops the theme we are slaves to righteousness, obedient to doing good. The law simply echos this has been achieved. But the law in the Mosaic sense is a the shadow, so much is not relevent other than demonstrating the great work Jesus is doing in tearing down the barrier between holiness and humanness.

I really do understand the problem though. When I was a teenager, I accepted the theology of christianity, but it was like a formula but at a distance rather than in myself. Slowly the Lord pointed out my tendency to conform, to be part of the group, to take on the show and just accept things, rather than be a personal realisation. Over a series of weeks reading a book of the sufferings of Christ it became very personal. I understood how hard it was to choose the path and walk it against all the human ignorance and stupidity and still carry on. I was bowled over, undone, broken. How could I compare or even say my conformity or few words meant anything?

Righteousness or doing the right thing is not a thing you choose to do. It is because you heart shows you this is the way to deal with the situation no matter the cost. Now to those without this faith or love, it is just failure, because they do not have the power and do not know why. So it will be always with the religious without inspiration or heart. And unfortunately at times that includes all of us.

So I do not understand people talking legalism and then relating this to the pharisees. I do not see people here being hypocrites or even having a valid argument about not living a righteous life. So without scriptural foundation, if they say the cannot live righteously, they need to question their understanding of salvation and following Jesus and what their salvation experience actually was.

You have an incorrect view of the law and true righteousness.

No person looks to the law and thinks to themselves 'I have achieved that'.

If they could do that then they wouldn't need the Lord Jesus Christ. They could achieve their own righteousness.

What the law can show us is that we have changed since coming to Christ. The law still points out our failings but it also shows our growth in Christ.

You can't claim you have lived a righteous life. That is what a Pharisee does. Only Christ can claim that you are righteous. And it is only by His Work and His Word that you are.

Haven't you ever read the prayer of the publican and the pharisee? The law shows you your sin, each time, every time. It never, ever shows you your own righteousness. If it did, then you would be Christ. I don't think you are claiming that, are you?

I think just by claiming you are righteous before the law that you are sinning. Its a lack of humility, arrogance. Its weird that you can actually be righteous, but if you state it you no longer are...

Its like saying 'nothing can stop us now'... lol Or, 'this boat is un-sinkable'...

 

[PeterJens]

What exactly do you mean by live righteously? No sin?

You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
Romans 6:18


The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.
1 Tim 1:5


Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.
John 14:21

A positive approach to righteous living is putting love into action. If sin comes in, you repent and walk on.
The power of righteousness is love and the commands of Jesus.

Think on this idea. When is a person righteous? The normal definition is doing the right thing until they do the one thing that means they have failed. But being righteous in Gods sense is walking in love, and if you stumble, you sort it out and walk on. It is not saying stumbles will not happen but that is not your heart. It is the changed heart that changes who you are and the Kingdom you belong to.

The problem is often our hearts dwell on unwholesome ideas and motivations, but love works these things out and changes us.

Does this help?

 

[JaumeJ]

Young man, when I am, as you have termed, snoty, you will know it. Until then, watch your third party conversations about others, especially your Keep quiet.

I lost interest in JaumeJ posts after he got snotty with Ember. Snotty is not a fruit of the Spirit. It kind of kills one witness for me.

Kefa

 

[just-us-2]

I lost interest in JaumeJ posts after he got snotty with Ember. Snotty is not a fruit of the Spirit. It kind of kills one witness for me.

Kefa

But it doesn't bother you that ember and her comrades are far nastier than saying "snotty" to several people in here? Wow.
"Then Kefa addressed them: "I now understand that God does not play favorites," Acts 10:34

 

[Kefa54]

I think what I just don't get is. Why turn back to the law when we have the Spirit of Christ living in us?
The Holly spirit convicts me, teaches me, and gives me the strength to do what he wants.
The Holly Spirit has shown me my gifts and given me the strength and wisdom to do them..... Gifts that I never would have stepped out and done on my own in the law..

The law can't do that.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws on their hearts and write them on their minds,

 

[Kefa54]

Not going to play this game.

Young man, when I am, as you have termed, snoty, you will know it. Until then, watch your third party conversations about others, especially your Keep quiet.

 

[JaumeJ]

So you cast the stone, then you hide the hand. What kind of person does such a thing? You know, for you ae such.

Now, if you wish to make third party comments about others you should be able to continue in that game you started.

No, I did not ask to be in the game YOU started, but you sure were alright with talking about me to another, slurring my integrity. Do you call this good works produced by God? shame on you.

Not going to play this game.

 

[PeterJens]

I think just by claiming you are righteous before the law that you are sinning. Its a lack of humility, arrogance. Its weird that you can actually be righteous, but if you state it you no longer are...

Its like saying 'nothing can stop us now'... lol Or, 'this boat is un-sinkable'...

Paul appears to be saying he is righteous through Jesus. But he is not saying he has a check list and says this is where I pass or fail. He is saying we are to live righteously, in purity etc.

But there is a problem with the righteous verses sinner argument. Giving up righteous living because of problems or failure.
Jesus is saying you have the power to live righteously through Him. So anything I say in regard to how I live is purely because of Jesus and His love, not myself, so how can I say I have achieved anything separate from Him.

Though we stumble, it does not obscure our direction and membership of the Kingdom.
And yes I do look at the law and say, I have achieved that in the power of Jesus. It is always a work in progress, transforming my heart, understanding the precepts and principles, sowing good things and doing that which is honourable.

Now if all of this is totally unachievable, why are you a christian? Why do you even believe morality matters? Surely we are just beasts of the field attempting to mimic morality but in the end slaves to the flesh and sin.

As Paul would say, this is the world of unbelief. If Jesus did not conquer sin and death, the cause of our slavery, then slavery to righteousness as he writes does not exist. That is the problem of the pharisees who had sold out.

If the church is not full of sinners walking in righteousness powered by the Spirit of God, then what is the point?
I know people stumble, mistakes are made, people fake many things, but if all the standards are just a mirage, then so is the faith.

 

[just-us-2]

I think what I just don't get is. Why turn back to the law when we have the Spirit of Christ living in us?
The Holly spirit convicts me, teaches me, and gives me the strength to do what he wants.
The Holly Spirit has shown me my gifts and given me the strength and wisdom to do them..... Gifts that I never would have stepped out and done on my own in the law..

The law can't do that.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws on their hearts and write them on their minds,

If you want to ignore some parts of the Bible - such as the law - or having the fruit of the Spirit - for instance, you are refusing Jesus Himself because He was the Word made flesh. God does not change. And if one has had this explained to him/her and refused to humbly pray and study, as the Bereans did, then the conclusion can be drawn that he/she is not a true Christian so that person is under the law - he is lawless. And that conclusion should be drawn so he/she can be treated as 'unsaved' and brought to a saving knowledge of the Messiah. You have used the scripture in Luke 9:62, "To him Yeshua said, "No one who puts his hand to the plow (man's own 'works') and keeps looking back (as Lot's wife did) is fit to serve in the Kingdom of God." This talking about our own 'field' of pre-salvation life, NOT God's 'field' which He plowed for His children with the written Law as given to Moses!

As I said before: It appears you have overlooked a detail that makes all the difference. You said, "I have the same spirit that rose Jesus from the dead living in me. I don't need the law +Jesus. The spirit guides me every day" So many times I have seen this doctrinal point of view expressed and have to wonder why people think such a thing. That doctrine says that professing Christians don't need the law because the Holy Spirit writes the Torah/law on their hearts.

First of all, there are at least three places in the Bible (1 in the OT and 2 in the NT) where we are told that man does not live by bread alone but by EVERY WORD of God. Deuteronomy 8:3, Matthew 4:4, Luke 4:4
Second Jesus is the Word. John 1:1
Third, the Holy Spirit is going to write the same things on a believer's heart as God stated in the Torah because God does NOT change. Malachi 3:6