The Law of Grace

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
F

feedm3

Guest
#41
#41
Laodicea said:
So the real issue you have is with the sabbath
Click to expand...
No, not only the sabbath. I guess the real issue is that the Bible clearly states the law of Moses is done away in Christ. But most see this in the NT and then use that to teach we are not under any law at all.

Teaching that grace nullifies obedience is false, and many are deceived by it.

Of course the real reason I am pushing for an answer concerning the sabbath is I am trying to test your consistency, I have no problem admitting that.

Of course, The law was given by Moses but grace and truth through Christ, but this has nothing to do with there being no kind of law at all.

Jn 14:15, Heb 5:9, etc. The NT is full of commands for the Christian.

I have no idea where you stand on this, That is why I am just trying to feel you and others out through these questions.
Although I have to remind myself, you are not saying we have no law,but that the law of God is still binding.
I am trying to have to conversations at once on another thread, forgive me if I get a little mixed up.
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#42
#42
feedm3 said:
No, not only the sabbath. I guess the real issue is that the Bible clearly states the law of Moses is done away in Christ. But most see this in the NT and then use that to teach we are not under any law at all.

Teaching that grace nullifies obedience is false, and many are deceived by it.

Of course the real reason I am pushing for an answer concerning the sabbath is I am trying to test your consistency, I have no problem admitting that.

Of course, The law was given by Moses but grace and truth through Christ, but this has nothing to do with there being no kind of law at all.

Jn 14:15, Heb 5:9, etc. The NT is full of commands for the Christian.

I have no idea where you stand on this, That is why I am just trying to feel you and others out through these questions.
Although I have to remind myself, you are not saying we have no law,but that the law of God is still binding.
I am trying to have to conversations at once on another thread, forgive me if I get a little mixed up.
Click to expand...
The ceremonial Law along with the ceremonial sabbaths have been done away But, not the 10 commandmdnts.
 
F

feedm3

Guest
#43
#43
Laodicea said:
The ceremonial Law along with the ceremonial sabbaths have been done away But, not the 10 commandmdnts.
Click to expand...
Well that to me is inconsistent sense the Sabbath is specifically mentioned along with the other nine.

"ceremonial sabbath," or any other all the same.

There is no mistake in which the sabbath in exodus mentioned with other 9 commands was to keep the sabbath day holy, do no work.

If you believe this is still binding you must keep it i would assume, if you don't, then I really don't understand where your coming from.
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#44
#44
feedm3 said:
Well that to me is inconsistent sense the Sabbath is specifically mentioned along with the other nine.

"ceremonial sabbath," or any other all the same.

There is no mistake in which the sabbath in exodus mentioned with other 9 commands was to keep the sabbath day holy, do no work.

If you believe this is still binding you must keep it i would assume, if you don't, then I really don't understand where your coming from.
Click to expand...
As I said before, you have an incorrect understanding of the Law. I suggest you do a study into the Law.
 
G

gotime

Senior Member
#45
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
88
48
#45
feedm3 said:
Well that to me is inconsistent sense the Sabbath is specifically mentioned along with the other nine.

"ceremonial sabbath," or any other all the same.

There is no mistake in which the sabbath in exodus mentioned with other 9 commands was to keep the sabbath day holy, do no work.

If you believe this is still binding you must keep it i would assume, if you don't, then I really don't understand where your coming from.
Click to expand...
Hi Feedm3. I find your posts confusing. I am not sure where you are coming from. I read one post and it seems you are against the law then in another you say you are not. could you please explain your view and where the problem is for me if you have the time.

Thanx and God bless
 
F

feedm3

Guest
#46
#46
gotime said:
Hi Feedm3. I find your posts confusing. I am not sure where you are coming from. I read one post and it seems you are against the law then in another you say you are not. could you please explain your view and where the problem is for me if you have the time.

Thanx and God bless
Click to expand...
Sure. Thanks for asking and not attacking me.

When we are speaking of the law, I am referring to the law of Moses. In which I see is done away with by the new testament.
So I would be against the view that we must keep the Law of Moses today, and/or any part of it.

On the other hand, some views go to the extreme in saying that the law of Moses is done away, but also all law in general.
And since a Christian is under grace, there is no law whatsoever bound upon him/her.

I disagree with both of these views. The Bible teaches the law of Moses is done away with - Col 2:14.
Yet it has been replaced by the law of Chirst, in which we must obey in adherence to the will of God - Matt 7:21-23; Jn 14:15; II Cor 6:1, Heb 5:8,9.

Hope that clears it up.
 
F

feedm3

Guest
#47
#47
Laodicea said:
As I said before, you have an incorrect understanding of the Law. I suggest you do a study into the Law.
Click to expand...
Okay man, and you haven't shown how or where my understanding is incorrect. The passages you have attempted to show do not support what you are saying.
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#48
#48
feedm3 said:
Well that to me is inconsistent sense the Sabbath is specifically mentioned along with the other nine.

"ceremonial sabbath," or any other all the same.

There is no mistake in which the sabbath in exodus mentioned with other 9 commands was to keep the sabbath day holy, do no work.

If you believe this is still binding you must keep it i would assume, if you don't, then I really don't understand where your coming from.
Click to expand...
The ceremonial Sabbaths are not the same as the weekly Sabbath
Leviticus 23:24
(24) Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation.
Leviticus 23:3
(3) Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

The ceremonial Sabbaths were called a sabbath while the weekly sabbath was called the sabbath

The Law of Moses included Laws such as circumcision
Luke 2:21-22
(21) And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.
(22) And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;
Acts 15:1
(1) And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

God wrote a 2nd copy of the 10 commandments which was placed inside the ark of the covenant
Exodus 34:1
(1) And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.
Deuteronomy 10:2
(2) And I will write on the tables the words that were in the first tables which thou brakest, and thou shalt put them in the ark.

The Laws that Moses wrote was placed on side of the ark and notice it says written by Moses
Deuteronomy 31:24-26
(24) And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,
(25) That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying,
(26) Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

Colossians says handwriting of ordinances
Colossians 2:14
(14) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

It is talking about the handwriting of ordinances written by Moses. The 10 commandments including the sabbath had nothing to do with ordinances and was not handwritten.





 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#49
#49
So because the 10 commandments have not been done away then we still need grace for with no Law there is no sin and with no sin there is no need for grace But the NT says this.
1 John 3:4
(4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Which Law is he talking about?
1 Samuel 15:24
(24) And Saul said unto Samuel, I have sinned: for I have transgressed the commandment of the LORD, and thy words: because I feared the people, and obeyed their voice.
Daniel 9:11
(11) Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.

This is clear that 1 John 3:4 is referring to the 10 commandments and because of that we need the grace of God



 
I

Israel

Guest
#50
#50
Laodicea said:
So because the 10 commandments have not been done away then we still need grace for with no Law there is no sin and with no sin there is no need for grace But the NT says this.
1 John 3:4
(4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Which Law is he talking about?
1 Samuel 15:24
(24) And Saul said unto Samuel, I have sinned: for I have transgressed the commandment of the LORD, and thy words: because I feared the people, and obeyed their voice.
Daniel 9:11
(11) Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.

This is clear that 1 John 3:4 is referring to the 10 commandments and because of that we need the grace of God
Click to expand...

Are not all the 10 commandments summed up in love? If so how is the sabbath obeyed in love?

Is, let's say eating pork, a sin according to the 10 commandments?
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#51
#51
Israel said:
Are not all the 10 commandments summed up in love? If so how is the sabbath obeyed in love?

Is, let's say eating pork, a sin according to the 10 commandments?
Click to expand...
Isaiah 58:13-14
(13) If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
(14) Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
Psalms 119:174
(174) I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight.
Romans 7:12
(12) Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.


 
I

Israel

Guest
#52
#52
Laodicea said:
Isaiah 58:13-14
(13) If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
(14) Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
Psalms 119:174
(174) I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight.
Romans 7:12
(12) Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Click to expand...
You write scripture, but you didn't answer any of the questions.


Are not all the 10 commandments summed up in love? If so how is the sabbath obeyed in love?

Is, let's say eating pork, a sin according to the 10 commandments?
 
F

feedm3

Guest
#53
#53
Laodicea said:
The ceremonial Sabbaths are not the same as the weekly Sabbath
Leviticus 23:24
(24) Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation.
Leviticus 23:3
(3) Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

The ceremonial Sabbaths were called a sabbath while the weekly sabbath was called the sabbath

The Law of Moses included Laws such as circumcision
Luke 2:21-22
(21) And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.
(22) And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;
Acts 15:1
(1) And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

God wrote a 2nd copy of the 10 commandments which was placed inside the ark of the covenant
Exodus 34:1
(1) And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.
Deuteronomy 10:2
(2) And I will write on the tables the words that were in the first tables which thou brakest, and thou shalt put them in the ark.

The Laws that Moses wrote was placed on side of the ark and notice it says written by Moses
Deuteronomy 31:24-26
(24) And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,
(25) That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying,
(26) Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

Colossians says handwriting of ordinances
Colossians 2:14
(14) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

It is talking about the handwriting of ordinances written by Moses. The 10 commandments including the sabbath had nothing to do with ordinances and was not handwritten.





Click to expand...
Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

This seems self explanatory and does not agree with what you are saying.
 
F

feedm3

Guest
#54
#54
Laodicea said:
So because the 10 commandments have not been done away then we still need grace for with no Law there is no sin and with no sin there is no need for grace But the NT says this.
1 John 3:4
(4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Which Law is he talking about?
1 Samuel 15:24
(24) And Saul said unto Samuel, I have sinned: for I have transgressed the commandment of the LORD, and thy words: because I feared the people, and obeyed their voice.
Daniel 9:11
(11) Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.

This is clear that 1 John 3:4 is referring to the 10 commandments and because of that we need the grace of God
Click to expand...
Laodicea said:
So because the 10 commandments have not been done away then we still need grace for with no Law there is no sin and with no sin there is no need for grace But the NT says this.
1 John 3:4
(4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Which Law is he talking about?
1 Samuel 15:24
(24) And Saul said unto Samuel, I have sinned: for I have transgressed the commandment of the LORD, and thy words: because I feared the people, and obeyed their voice.
Daniel 9:11
(11) Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.

This is clear that 1 John 3:4 is referring to the 10 commandments and because of that we need the grace of God
Click to expand...
Wow man, you really twisting scripture here. I Jn has nothing at all to do with the 10 commandments.

what your saying has some dangerous implications:

If I Jn 3:4 is concerning only the 10 commandments then that would imply everything else commanded in the NT is pointless. Why? because if we choose to disobey it, it is not sin.

What about what Christ said? Since he said much that are not found in the 10 Commandments, your saying disobeying them are not sin?

Is it ok to not love Christ as long as we keep the 10 commands?
Jn 14:15 - if ye love me keep my commands

What about homosexuality? That is not in the 10 commands, so if one choose to live such a lifestyle it is not sin now?

One again you trying to force one definition on many different contexts. John says "the law" it means any of God's laws that are binding today, it is laws in general, nothing in the context suggests he is speaking of the 10 commandments. You cannot force it there no matter how hard you try.

You cant go to the book of Samuel and Daniel and find similar wording describing the law they were under and say it clear it must every time we find this term anywhere no matter what the time or context.

This is not using the Bible for support, but using it in a deceptive way.
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#55
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,189
113
#55
feedm3 said:
Wow man, you really twisting scripture here. I Jn has nothing at all to do with the 10 commandments.

what your saying has some dangerous implications:

If I Jn 3:4 is concerning only the 10 commandments then that would imply everything else commanded in the NT is pointless. Why? because if we choose to disobey it, it is not sin.

What about what Christ said? Since he said much that are not found in the 10 Commandments, your saying disobeying them are not sin?

Is it ok to not love Christ as long as we keep the 10 commands?
Jn 14:15 - if ye love me keep my commands

What about homosexuality? That is not in the 10 commands, so if one choose to live such a lifestyle it is not sin now?

One again you trying to force one definition on many different contexts. John says "the law" it means any of God's laws that are binding today, it is laws in general, nothing in the context suggests he is speaking of the 10 commandments. You cannot force it there no matter how hard you try.

You cant go to the book of Samuel and Daniel and find similar wording describing the law they were under and say it clear it must every time we find this term anywhere no matter what the time or context.

This is not using the Bible for support, but using it in a deceptive way.
Click to expand...
What are the commands of Christ that are not covered by the 10 commandments?

Didn't the Lord say the Law could be summed up in the two commands, Love thy God with all thy heart and mind, and Love thy neighbor as thyself?
 
iamsoandso

iamsoandso

Senior Member
#56
Oct 6, 2011
7,857
1,565
113
#56
now,,,,they took Adam and they set Adam up on that cross,,,and he fell asleep,,,and then they looked inside of him and saw an "rib",and they were confused,,and so they then put an spear into his side to see if he was asleep,,,and out gushed water and blood and an woman and he called her name Eve and she was the mother of the living.and then it was close upon the day of rest, so as night fell,,,they set Adam to rest in his tent,and after three of the days,,,he and his wife Eve awoke,,,,,,,
 
Allin

Allin

Banned
#57
Jan 6, 2012
1,233
10
0
#57
Wow, I'll have to get back to this one later.
 
Allin

Allin

Banned
#58
Jan 6, 2012
1,233
10
0
#58
Israel, you said, "There is no such thing as a law of grace." Is that right. Your avatar seems to say differently, but then it's just an avatar. But it's probably a difference engendered by words and definitions. For the sake of agreement, I won't try to explain something that hasn't yet been revealed.

I meant for this thread to major on Grace-- not the false Grace churches teach-- but it seems to have turned quickly to Law. What does keeping the sabbath have to do with liberty (Grace)?

I call it the 'Law of Grace' because a law is something that is decreed, final, presides over, etc. When Jesus died, rose, and ascended to Heaven, He instituted Grace as president over every single Law that can be manipulated by evil spirits (principalities and powers, etc.) and human beings to become hostile towards people and the Creation. Because Grace prevails over judgments <against us>, it is therefore also a Law. The dictionary begins the definition of law as "the principles and regulations established in a community by some authority and applicable to its people..." The Law of Grace is simply, in its simplest form, "God's heart (ways) and from it His primary method (ways) of operation". They are two sides of the same coin: God and God's ways which are one and the same. Anyone who knows God is holy knows Grace doesn't nullify a Christian's responsibility to live holy as God said, "Be holy as I am holy." So, if Grace is God and His ways (Himself from the inside out), then we know that whatever God is or has in Himself (eg. righteousness, Love, justice, mercy, judgment, equity, wisdom, might, victory, suffering, etc.) is what Grace then is to us. Why so much argument about such simple things? I find that Christians seem to only know how to talk when we're either arguing or talking about superficial things. Is there a time to get past learning and knowledge and move into experience-- to start living the Life and stop arguing? So, Grace is who God is ("God is Love"), and whatever flows from God is what Grace is for us. God's Grace is God's Love as it appears or manifests when it comes out from Him (in the form of Love) and is extended toward humanity and the Creation. God is Love (with all His other character traits); but when His Love (character, ways) are expressed outward from Himself towards us, they become Grace; the very same Love with a different appearance just as the same God the Father but manifesting in God the Son. God so loved the world, therefore, "we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten Son of the Father, full of Grace and truth... And of His fullness <of Grace and truth> have we all received, and Grace upon Grace" (Jn. 1:14, 16). Isn't it time to move on from doctrine and learning and to live and experience God.
 
Last edited:
peacefulbeliever

peacefulbeliever

Senior Member
#59
Feb 21, 2012
3,794
199
63
#59
I believe that the law is summed up in this: Master which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. this is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace Ephesians 2:13-15
I believe that verse says that the law of commandments were abolished.

But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for the just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but The man that doeth them shall live in them. If you live by the law you have to do all the law.

The whole point is that now we do not have to live in the law but by doing the two great commandments, the rest will follow because we want to please God not because we have to.


 
Allin

Allin

Banned
#60
Jan 6, 2012
1,233
10
0
#60
Yep. Something like that.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.