the meaning of baptism

[Beekeeper]

What was not discussed enough in my Baptist upbringing was:

1. why WB symbolizes SB, which is manifested by love rather than by tongues, and
2. why WB is unnecessary for salvation, although appropriate as a memorial and portrayal of being buried with Christ
(Rom. 6:4, Col. 2:12), and
3. why Mark 16:9-20 is problematic.

I have heard discussion of all those 3 points, though certainly not universal agreement.

What are your views on Mark 16:9-20?
I have looked at the textural dispute on that passage, and for my part concluded that it is a legitimate part of the Bible.
The signs mentioned in v.17 &18 were performed by the apostles, and there is no suggestion that are to be performed by every believing individual.
V.16 "Whosoever believes and is baptized.." has been used to teach baptisimal regeneration, but I would consider this a distortion of the words, because the teaching does not harmonize with the rest of the Bible.

 

[Beekeeper]

But dedication services referred to as "Infant Baptism" I'm fine with. We should start raising children as Christians from the start, and not wait until later to have them "officially" dedicated to living Christian lives. Nor should we, I think, make older converts think they could "go to Hell" unless they quickly jump into a pool to get Baptized.

Funny you should mention that.
I remember getting baptized as one coming to faith from outside, and think at the time one of my main motivations to do so was to get all the people off my back who were telling me to do it.
Pretty shallow really, but now that I have children who have all professed faith in Jesus as soon as they were able to, I feel compelled to get them baptized for the exact same reason. It did not make sense that I should not take their profession of faith seriously because of their young age, and now that they are believing teenagers that I should consider them still too immature to know.
I seek now to deepen my Biblical understanding of the matter, and am interested to hear from those who are persuaded that Baptism is also for the children of believers.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

I seek now to deepen my Biblical understanding of the matter, and am interested to hear from those who are persuaded that Baptism is also for the children of believers.

Precious friend, hope this is helpful:

Today, Under Grace, God Has Only ONE [ Spiritual ] Baptism for Grace believers (adults
and children).

------------------------------
And, precious friend(s), Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified
In The Lord Jesus Christ and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided:

The Bible: The BIG Picture

Amen.

 

[biblestudent78]

Since around 1517 some Christians have been dedicated to bifurcating Christianity into two competing theologies. In those following that fat Monk Luder, there is no physical act that has anything to do with salvation which is by faith through grace alone.

This is essentially the division of the body and the "soul". Accordingly, God has zero interest in you body, only in your soul (which itself is a Greek invention). Any step you take physically is of no interest to God according to this Catholic Monk and his myriad followers. That is because the foundational theology is that we can "do" nothing, even in obedience, that has any impact on our eternal soul. Over the last 450 yrs his devoted followers, knowling or not, subscribe to the his "reformed" theology. Disregard the body. God only values your soul.

Then there is the body of data starting with Jesus that contends with Luder. Jesus wants and expects your entire life, body and soul to be converted, transformed, empowered by the Holy Spirit to "every good work." According to Jesus we are to be our generation's Good Samaritans. Sacrificial love. Love of God and man united. Mankind restored to doing God's will, not just spouting proof texts. Contrary to our precious Monk, God has work for us to do. God wants us to be the voice and the life validating his Loving Sacrifice as we live lives of Loving Sacrifice. The monkism model is we are saved by a momentary prayer. Jesus concept of salvation is delivered in His longest speech recorded in Matthew 25. Belief alone, because we are told that is "all" that is required for "salvation" yet refusing baptism is the opposite of everything in the New Testament, but it is the hallmark of 21st Christianity where we abhor anything "inconvenient" about our religion. Nod you head to a 60 second pulpit prayer and heaven is guaranteed. Our marketing been has optimized to fill the pews.

Paul, in a very convoluted theology written in chapters 5-8 to the Romans describes salvation as both victory over the power of sin by faith in Jesus and the power of death which can only be achieve through baptism from which we arise from thee power of death by being buried in baptism in which we are joining in Christ's death and his resurrection as we are raised to live a new life.

The real problem with baptism is that its purpose leaves our shallow religiosity with a question that cannot be answered. When we do baptise, we repeat, "You are buried into Christ's death to raised to a new life.....but we have no path for that new live other than to sit, pray, sing and fill the offering plate. There is no joining in the mission and purpose of Jesus by the power of God, because we refuse the idea that what we do matter at all to God. He only want to know and value what we claim to believe....claim.

In my opinion, that is exactly why baptism in water is "controversial." We have no idea of biblical conversion. No idea of rejecting sin in our lives and and being converted from self-interest, self-promotion, self-fulfillment and self-satisfaction to loving who God loves. Loving like God loves, sacrificing like God sacrificed, healing like God heals, driving reconciliation like God has done. At best, we are baptised to get our name on a church ledger.

Our objection to water baptism is because we reject that obedience means anything to God, just so long as we "believe" right. Using the bible like a celestial weegie board endlessly spinning the wheel until it says, your dogmas are good enough. God has no say once you speak the magic words: "I believe."

 

[randyk]

Funny you should mention that.
I remember getting baptized as one coming to faith from outside, and think at the time one of my main motivations to do so was to get all the people off my back who were telling me to do it.
Pretty shallow really, but now that I have children who have all professed faith in Jesus as soon as they were able to, I feel compelled to get them baptized for the exact same reason. It did not make sense that I should not take their profession of faith seriously because of their young age, and now that they are believing teenagers that I should consider them still too immature to know.
I seek now to deepen my Biblical understanding of the matter, and am interested to hear from those who are persuaded that Baptism is also for the children of believers.

In Christianity, commitment is everything. In fact, it is a covenant made between God and the individual.

So, when someone professes faith in Christ either for the first time or for the first time seriously then one should dedicate himself or herself, preferably in a public way (though not necessarily so). If you are in a country where converting to Christianity is illegal I do not advise public ceremonies celebrating that conversion!

It is really the commitment that is vital--not the ceremony. But ceremonies have their value. It marks a major turning point in a person's life, and a ceremonial commitment helps make that change.

Infant Baptism is really a dedication made by the parents. The water doesn't magically change anybody. The ceremony, if required by someone, constitutes legalism. If it is simply a free expression of commitment, it is best of all.

 

[biblestudent78]

In Christianity, commitment is everything. In fact, it is a covenant made between God and the individual.

So, when someone professes faith in Christ either for the first time or for the first time seriously then one should dedicate himself or herself, preferably in a public way (though not necessarily so). If you are in a country where converting to Christianity is illegal I do not advise public ceremonies celebrating that conversion!

It is really the commitment that is vital--not the ceremony. But ceremonies have their value. It marks a major turning point in a person's life, and a ceremonial commitment helps make that change.

Infant Baptism is really a dedication made by the parents. The water doesn't magically change anybody. The ceremony, if required by someone, constitutes legalism. If it is simply a free expression of commitment, it is best of all.

On a biblical level, infant baptism has nothing to do with conversion or committment. It's a just in case God is so legalistically constrained and brutally oriened that he will send the baby to hell if the parents don't "save it."

More importantly, in reality, it is just a way to bind a child to a particular Christian cult. Get them before they can get away. Baptism is for the remission of sins for those who believe and have repented as was described in the very first gospel sermon. According to Paul we are save from the power of sin by faith in God's grace and we are saved from the power of death by recreating and participating in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. Kick back, have a beer and read Romans 5-8.

 

[randyk]

On a biblical level, infant baptism has nothing to do with conversion or committment. It's a just in case God is so legalistically constrained and brutally oriened that he will send the baby to hell if the parents don't "save it."

Well, some people may feel that way, but that is a mild form of legalism. There are Scriptures that seem to indicate Baptism is necessary for Salvation, but looking at the complete testimony of NT Scripture we do not find that Water Baptism is the essential Baptism--Spirit Baptism is, or in other words, spiritual conversion.

More importantly, in reality, it is just a way to bind a child to a particular Christian cult. Get them before they can get away. Baptism is for the remission of sins for those who believe and have repented as was described in the very first gospel sermon. According to Paul we are save from the power of sin by faith in God's grace and we are saved from the power of death by recreating and participating in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. Kick back, have a beer and read Romans 5-8.

How silly--"have a beer and read the Bible?" I was, for a time, an alcohol counselor and recognize that sending a message to Christians that drinking alcohol is good can be bad in our society full of excesses. Christians need a message better than that!

I believe in Salvation by Grace through faith, which is synonymous with our response to God's word calling us to repent. So we are saved for righteousness, and not so that we can have a beer or two. If you want to drink on your own time and speak of it outside of sites serious about reaching people for Christ I have no problem with that.

Baptizing infants is a good thing because it is the parents promising to raise their children in Christ. It is actually a Dedication Service. You have a problem with that??

 

[NightTwister]

On a biblical level, infant baptism has nothing to do with conversion or committment. It's a just in case God is so legalistically constrained and brutally oriened that he will send the baby to hell if the parents don't "save it."

While this is true of Catholic doctrine, it is not a true representation of the Protestant doctrine and practice of infant baptism.

 

[Beekeeper]

On a biblical level, infant baptism has nothing to do with conversion or committment. It's a just in case God is so legalistically constrained and brutally oriened that he will send the baby to hell if the parents don't "save it."

More importantly, in reality, it is just a way to bind a child to a particular Christian cult. Get them before they can get away.

Any serious Bible student will soon find out that Baptism is neither salvation or membership in a cult, or denomination.
I see your argument is good only as a refutation of the traditional Roman Catholic understanding.
What about those parents that baptize their children without believing that it is about salvation?
If in their understanding they are dedicating their child to Jesus, who has "made us kings and priests unto God and his Father" (Revelations 1:6), just as AAron was commanded to baptize his sons. Exodus 29:4.
Of course they will continue to pray for the child's salvation.

I can not take seriously an understanding of Baptism that uses only the NT to the exclusion of the OT.
JTB was a Levite, and persuaded many Hebrews to accept his baptism using only the Old Testament.

 

[biblestudent78]

Any serious Bible student will soon find out that Baptism is neither salvation or membership in a cult, or denomination.
I see your argument is good only as a refutation of the traditional Roman Catholic understanding.
What about those parents that baptize their children without believing that it is about salvation?
If in their understanding they are dedicating their child to Jesus, who has "made us kings and priests unto God and his Father" (Revelations 1:6), just as AAron was commanded to baptize his sons. Exodus 29:4.
Of course they will continue to pray for the child's salvation.

I can not take seriously an understanding of Baptism that uses only the NT to the exclusion of the OT.
JTB was a Levite, and persuaded many Hebrews to accept his baptism using only the Old Testament.

Please cite the OT passage where God commanded baptism in the OT.

 

[biblestudent78]

While this is true of Catholic doctrine, it is not a true representation of the Protestant doctrine and practice of infant baptism.

Please explain the difference.

 

[biblestudent78]

I have heard discussion of all those 3 points, though certainly not universal agreement.

What are your views on Mark 16:9-20?
I have looked at the textural dispute on that passage, and for my part concluded that it is a legitimate part of the Bible.
The signs mentioned in v.17 &18 were performed by the apostles, and there is no suggestion that are to be performed by every believing individual.
V.16 "Whosoever believes and is baptized.." has been used to teach baptisimal regeneration, but I would consider this a distortion of the words, because the teaching does not harmonize with the rest of the Bible.

Paul says, "Or are you ignorant that as many as have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?". He explains that this baptism signifies a union with Christ, where believers are buried with Him, die to sin, and are raised to walk in newness of life.
"What then shall we say? Shall we continue in sin so that grace may increase? Certainly not! How can we who died to sin live in it any longer? Or aren’t you aware that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? We were therefore buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may walk in newness of life.

For if we have been united with Him like this in His death, we will certainly also be united with Him in His resurrection. We know that our old self was crucified with Him so that the body of sin might be rendered powerless, that we should no longer be slaves to sin. For anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with Him. For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, He cannot die again; death no longer has dominion over Him. The death He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life He lives, He lives to God. So you too must count yourselves dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

And why does it not "harmonize" with Romans 6:3 Paul says, "

 

[Beekeeper]

And why does it not "harmonize" with Romans 6:3 Paul says, "

I don't know how it happened, but your second "Beekeeper said" quote actually came from another person.
What I meant about "baptisimal regeneration" is the belief that water baptism saves people.

 

[Beekeeper]

Please cite the OT passage where God commanded baptism in the OT.

Grace Ambassador cited them earlier in the thread, you might have missed it that's ok.

Exodus 29:4 And Aaron and his sons thou shalt bring unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and shalt wash them with water.

Numbers 8:6 Take the Levites from among the children of Israel, and cleanse them.
7 And thus shalt thou do unto them, to cleanse them: Sprinkle water of purifying upon them, and let them shave all their flesh, and let them wash their clothes, and so make themselves clean.

The qualification for this Levitical baptism was that the subject was to be without blemish (Leviticus 21:21), making John's baptism controversial, as it was given to sinners from other tribes.

The KJV uses the word "wash" in Exodus 29:4, but it also uses "washings" for these Levitical practices in Hebrews 9:10, and the word is translated from "baptismos".

 

[Beekeeper]

And why does it not "harmonize" with Romans 6:3 Paul says, "

For people who think that water baptism has the power to save, Luke 7:29-30.

 

[GWH]

I have heard discussion of all those 3 points, though certainly not universal agreement.

What are your views on Mark 16:9-20?
I have looked at the textural dispute on that passage, and for my part concluded that it is a legitimate part of the Bible.
The signs mentioned in v.17 &18 were performed by the apostles, and there is no suggestion that are to be performed by every believing individual.
V.16 "Whosoever believes and is baptized.." has been used to teach baptisimal regeneration, but I would consider this a distortion of the words, because the teaching does not harmonize with the rest of the Bible.

I agree that Mark 16:16 does not jibe with the rest of NT teachings.

Water baptism is akin to physical circumcision: good as symbolic of Spirit baptism, which is salvific.

 

[NightTwister]

Please explain the difference.

Key Aspects of Reformed Baptism

• Sign and Seal: Baptism acts as a "visible word," sealing God's promise of grace to the baptized, similar to how a ring seals a marriage covenant.
• Replacement of Circumcision: Reformed theology sees baptism as the New Testament replacement of Old Testament circumcision, signifying entry into the covenant community.
• Covenant Children: Reformed churches practice infant baptism (paedobaptism), baptizing the children of believers because they are considered members of the covenant family.
• Not Regenerating: Baptism is not believed to guarantee salvation or automatically produce regeneration. Rather, it is a pledge of God's faithfulness, and its benefits are received through faith.
• Signification: It symbolizes washing away sins, being buried with Christ, and resurrection into new life.

 

[biblestudent78]

Well, some people may feel that way, but that is a mild form of legalism. There are Scriptures that seem to indicate Baptism is necessary for Salvation, but looking at the complete testimony of NT Scripture we do not find that Water Baptism is the essential Baptism--Spirit Baptism is, or in other words, spiritual conversion.

How silly--"have a beer and read the Bible?" I was, for a time, an alcohol counselor and recognize that sending a message to Christians that drinking alcohol is good can be bad in our society full of excesses. Christians need a message better than that!

I believe in Salvation by Grace through faith, which is synonymous with our response to God's word calling us to repent. So we are saved for righteousness, and not so that we can have a beer or two. If you want to drink on your own time and speak of it outside of sites serious about reaching people for Christ I have no problem with that.

Baptizing infants is a good thing because it is the parents promising to raise their children in Christ. It is actually a Dedication Service. You have a problem with that??

In general, have a problem hearing Martin Luder's words over and over again as if repeating them make them gospel. 21st century Protestant and non-denominational Christianity (which I am a part) continue to bifurcate humanity into a stand alone mind and a stand alone human body which we continue to claim we own and is of no concern of God's. Thus we parse the New Testament for anything that relieves us of any non-mental conversion. Thus, God has no interest and no claim on anything but our brains where we get save by claiming belief. In reality there is no such thing salvation by belief, in our dogmas, catechisms, creeds and popular culture compliance. We believe that somehow our minds contain our souls thus it is logical to say we are saved by what is in our mind. How convenient. A head nod to a 60 pulpit prayer and we have complied fully with the entire will of God....

The sad truth is that God created us mind and body. We an undivided whole. Thus we do not get to claim saving faith in our minds and live like we damn well please because any attempt to obey any physical thing is heretical as it reeks of "works based salvation."

The key to 21st century Protestant and ND Christianity is that we believe God's only interest is in what we think, what dogmas we support. The Gospel Truth is that Christ came to save the entire person. He came to save humanity not just human brains.

Just like all parents know, when you ask a child to do something you expect them to do more than say, "Yeah, I believe that." Christians have been asked to accept the Power of the Holy Spirit to change our lives, not just change some thoughts. We all crave salvation, but we stubbornly resist conversion. If we think right we don't have to live right. That is unspoken reality on the ground,

The apostle Paul makes it clear what you may think of as "saving grace" is just noise, IF you are not fully loving. As we all know, loving is defined by our actions over time. Not by the fact we say the words or have a momentary emotion. If we are not moving toward being the loving, walking, kneeling, praying, healing, repenting and source of reconciliation of our leader, Jesus the Christ, then all the 16th century theological excuses we have invented to deny God the ownership of our life is in vain. Read Matthew 25 again,
Here is Jesus's description of his disciple's conversion.
Character of the New Person
Be light – Let your light shine Matt 5:16. If you have ever met a Christian whose light is always on, always at the ready, always asking, “How can I help?”
Be salt Matt 5:17 Salt was what preserved the food of life.
Be a servant Matt 23:11. Perhaps one of our poets put it best
Be a reconciler Matt 5:23-24, 18:15-17
Be on guard against greed and sin Luke 12:15
Take sin very seriously (Matthew 5:29–30)
Be perfect (in love) Matt 5:48
Be forgiving Matt 18:21-22
Be repentant Matt 4:17
Be born again John 3:5
Be the person who will go the second mile Matt 5:41
Be the person who can turn the other cheek Matt 5:39
Be the person who always gives to those who ask Matt 5:42
Be the person who will always loan their stuff Matt 5:42
Be the person who seeks God's Kingdom first Matt 6:33
Be the person who honors their marriage Mark 10:6-9
Be poor in spirit Matt 5:3
Be meek Matt 5:5
Be the person who hungers and thirsts for righteousness Matt 5:6
Be merciful Matt 5:7
Be pure of heart Matt 5:8
Be peace makers 5:9

Heart of the New Person
Love and pray for your enemies Matt 5:44-46
Love God and your neighbor as yourself Matt 22:37-39
Love one another as I have loved you John 13:34, John 15:12
Love and invite the poor into your life Luke 14:12-14
Show your love by:
Feeding the hungry and quenching the thirsty Matt 25:35
Inviting in the stranger Matt 25:35
Clothing the naked Matt 25:36
Visiting the sick Matt 25:36
Visiting those in prison Matt 25:36

Things the New Person should avoid
Don’t judge others Matt 7:1
Don’t lust Matt 5:27-30
Don’t fear those that can kill the body Matt 10:28
Don’t store up treasures on earth Matt 6:19

The Mission of the New Person
Find and enter the narrow gate Matt 7:13-14
Ask God for more harvest workers Matt 9:37-38
Make disciples, baptize them and teach them to obey my commandments Matt 28:19-20
Let your light shine before all people (Matthew 5:16)
Be reconciled to one another (Matthew 5:23–24)

 

[biblestudent78]

For people who think that water baptism has the power to save, Luke 7:29-30.

Water baptism has no "power" it is the absolute minimal submission to obedience. Faith claimed in opposition to obedience is theological fantasy. Cheap and disobedient salvation.

 

[biblestudent78]

Key Aspects of Reformed Baptism

• Sign and Seal: Baptism acts as a "visible word," sealing God's promise of grace to the baptized, similar to how a ring seals a marriage covenant.
• Replacement of Circumcision: Reformed theology sees baptism as the New Testament replacement of Old Testament circumcision, signifying entry into the covenant community.
• Covenant Children: Reformed churches practice infant baptism (paedobaptism), baptizing the children of believers because they are considered members of the covenant family.
• Not Regenerating: Baptism is not believed to guarantee salvation or automatically produce regeneration. Rather, it is a pledge of God's faithfulness, and its benefits are received through faith.
• Signification: It symbolizes washing away sins, being buried with Christ, and resurrection into new life.

I like your imagery of the ring and the seal. I just wish it had a more grounded theological basis.
I think your replacement of circumcision is fundamentally flawed. Circumcision was exclusively for males. Christianity is for males and females for which circumcision is inappropriate.