The new covenant with Christ Jesus

[Elin]

Elin I see you have about 5,000 some posts, mind you, I don't know you in person but I can tell what type of person you are just by the few that I have read from you. Sometimes it's best to stay quiet.

Do you follow you own advice?

 

[Elin]

Re: The new covenant of Christ Jesus

That verse is not talking about the covenant made with Israel at mount Sinai.
Exodus 24:8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said , Behold the blood of
the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.

Are you serious?

"It will not be like the covenant I made with your forefathers when
I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt." (Jer 31:32; Heb 8:9)

Your ignorance is appalling.

 

[achduke]

So the NT is lying when it states the old covenant has been made obsolete?

Anyway, "soon" was future 2,000 years ago. Is it still future?

To God a 1000 years is but a day.

 

[Elin]

Re: The new covenant of Christ Jesus

Or one may read where he said that the law is holy, righteous and good and that it's not the law but the sin in him that brought death perhaps he could come to understand
what the ministry that brought death means.

2Co 3:6-11 couldn't be any clearer:

"He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant--not of the letter (Law)
but of the Spirit; for the letter (Law) kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone,
came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because
of its glory, fading though it was, will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?

If the ministry that condemns men (eternal death) men is glorious,
how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness?
For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory.
And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!"

Your problem is simple--unbelief.

 

[Elin]

So the NT is lying when it states the old covenant has been made obsolete?

Anyway, "soon" was future 2,000 years ago. Is it still future?

To God a 1000 years is but a day.

Paul understands it differently than you do.

"He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant--not of the letter (Law)
but of the Spirit; for the letter (Law) kills, but the Spirit gives life." (2Co 3:6)

 

[cfultz3]

i've observed a tendency to say that those who adhere to NT teaching that the New Covenant
has made the Old obsolete
are rejecting the Old Testament.

can we just not confuse the two?
the Mosaic Covenant and the Old Testament writings (the Law and the Prophets, if you will)
are not the same things.

God's Word is all beautiful to His people.

MY.....MY......

 

[LEPIDUS]

Do you follow you own advice?

I speak when necessary, and your post are redundant.

2 Timothy 4:1-5



I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: 2preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. 3For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, 4and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. 5As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.


Proverbs 17:28 ESV
Even a fool who keeps silent is considered wise; when he closes his lips, he is deemed intelligent


Proverbs 29:20 ESV
Do you see a man who is hasty in his words? There is more hope for a fool than for him.


Proverbs 12:15 ESV
The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, but a wise man listens to advice.


Proverbs 18:2 ESV
A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion


Proverbs 10:19 ESV
When words are many, transgression is not lacking, but whoever restrains his lips is prudent.


Proverbs 21:23 ESV
Whoever keeps his mouth and his tongue keeps himself out of trouble.


Ecclesiastes 5:1-20 ESV
Guard your steps when you go to the house of God. To draw near to listen is better than to offer the sacrifice of fools, for they do not know that they are doing evil. Be not rash with your mouth, nor let your heart be hasty to utter a word before God, for God is in heaven and you are on earth. Therefore let your words be few. For a dream comes with much business, and a fool's voice with many words. When you vow a vow to God, do not delay paying it, for he has no pleasure in fools. Pay what you vow. It is better that you should not vow than that you should vow and not pay.

Take the advice.

 

[cfultz3]

Well spoken. God's love never fails so we could also call love a promise, or covenant completed through Christ by every word that God has ever spoken. It all ties together.

1 Corinthians 13:8a Love never fails

"Love a promise" (a grin so big, my face was swallowed).....Beautiful.....

God, throughout the Old Testament, promised to love us so much that He would send His Son so that we could stand righteous before Him according to the path of trusting Him (faith) and not of deeds. And that love became a new Covenant, whereby we cry, 'Abba!!!!' because He wanted us to be His sons who would walk pleasingly before Him, just as our Brother showed us.

 

[psychomom]

Re: The new covenant of Christ Jesus

Jer 33:14-16
Behold, days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will fulfill the good word which I have spoken concerning

the house of Israel and the house of Judah.


-the house of Isreal is still lost from world view,


the two nations come together later when sticks come together.


In those days and at that time I will cause a righteous Branch of David to spring forth;

and He shall execute justice and righteousness on the earth.


-did Christ execute judgement on anyone the first time here,

he will execute justice when he returns.

In those days Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will dwell in safety;
and this is the name by which she will be called:

- does Jerusalem be in safety yet, the city of peace will not have till return.


in those days , after those days, has not happened yet


at that time we will all know the Lord

yes, as with many prophecies, it's a 'now', and a 'not yet'.

 

[Atwood]

Re: The new covenant of Christ Jesus

yes, as with many prophecies, it's a 'now', and a 'not yet'.

I realize that such a statement has been made many times, but what is the proof of it?

In those verses quoted from Jer 33, where is there any "now"?

 

[LEPIDUS]

I speak when necessary, and your post are redundant.

Elin, I apologize for this post, I feel convicted and feel I need to address it. I should not be condescending towards you and though at times my blunt replies often seem that way, I don't intend to be condescending towards anyone, so I apologize.

I understand you have a certain belief as to the topic of this thread, but I'd like to encourage you instead of making assertions or presenting arguments. You ask questions and lots of them, by questions, I mean those that will edify your understanding of why someone believe what they do. I think this will allow for the discussion to move forward rather than in circles. Again I apologize, my intention is not to tear you down. I do pray that everyone comes to truth and that when it presents itself, are willing to accept it wholeheartedly.

If by the off chance ones view may be wrong, why then oppose something that might be truth.

Hosea 4
6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge;
because you have rejected knowledge,
I reject you from being a priest to me.
And since you have forgotten the law of your God,
I also will forget your children.

Hosea 4:14
I will not punish your daughters when they play the whore,
nor your brides when they commit adultery;
for the men themselves go aside with prostitutes
and sacrifice with cult prostitutes,
and a people without understanding shall come to ruin.

 

[fredjames]

Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed .


Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.


Our Lord Jesus Christ was endowed with the fullness of His Father's Spirit unlike any other human. He was also born in the flesh, and therefore He is known as the Son of Man and the Son of God. According to the previously quoted verses neither Christ nor His Father (our Father in heaven) have changed their motives since the beginning.


John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?


Now there are many professing Christians who will say that the covenant of the Old Testament is obsolete and void because Israel didn't live up to the requirements and statutes of God. They will never say that God was guilty of breaking covenant, even though they say that the covenant is disannulled and obsolete.


My questions are these.
Now that we have a new covenant with Christ, does that covenant also become obsolete and void because of disobedience, or does God now (through the new covenant) look at His requirements and statutes differently than He did during the old covenant?


Is the only change in God's statutes the priesthood from Aaron (Levi) to Yeshua Messiah (Judah), plus the temple made with hands, and the new made without hands, or does the change make everything in the old covenant void, annulled, and obsolete?

What we are witnessing is, what was Spiritual, made in the Old Law and placed as a custodian over a community, even as if written in the conscience of the Gentiles(non Jews), became weak to the flesh/carnal man, resulted in sin and death.

But was made perfect through the SPIRIT/spirit man JESUS and HE proclaimed them as; "It is accomplished.", to those who were dead in the flesh/carnal in the sight of GOD, and now resurrected with HIM believing HE is their savior and who has redeem them and gave the New Law of the SPIRIT of life that liberates and from condemnation, placed at hand, as a parent over HIS children, as they 'abide' and 'excel' in righteousness to all of them and run their way home.

It is also spoken in the New about the Old, favored men and women who pleased GOD, not according to a written Law, but have faith and performed what HE has said, even in humble and humility understanding their imperfection in HIS written words and knowing a liberator to come to deliver them from imperfection. Also prophecy of the Old is highlighted, for the liberator have fulfilled all of them and justified as the MESSIAH to come and HE is indeed JESUS of Nazareth.

Those who are dead with CHRIST, who also fulfilled the Old for them, now resurrected to live in the established New, according to the New Covenant.

JESUS said in the Gospel to a follower who want to follow HIM and yet look back at the things of the Old;

"Let the dead bury the dead.When someone starts plowing, they are not to look back."

Whatever is of importance that the people of the New need to know about the Old, is already added in the New for references. The remaining Old that are not written in the New are bitter history of imperfection of the flesh/carnal, ruled by sin and death. Unless those who do not delight and practice the New and move forward, but still continue to set their minds and works according to the things of the flesh/carnal once again, tend to look back and delight the Old may be applicable with the New and introduce them once again and have. For one example, 'tithing'.

JESUS clearly corrected the Jews in the flesh/carnal and yet want to perceive and receive the New, that;

"You cannot put new wine into an old wine bag skin, for it will only swell and burst and the wine loss. New wine should be put in a new wine bag skin."

Old wine bag skin, may refer to those who are still in the flesh/carnal ignorance to the actual requirement of the Law of Moses sound doctrine. And new wine may refer to JESUS's ministry and teachings, written in the New Covenant. And also new wine bag skin may refer to those who GOD allow to perceive through the Law of Moses, the coming MESSIAH, the liberator of their bondage and recognizing HIM when HE arrives and by HIM be born from above not only of water but also of the HOLY SPIRIT(and henceforth perceive and receive and work with HIM the New Testament, in order to excel in righteous that exceeds the Pharisees.

i hope these that i have been guided to share, helps those who have faith, in reminder and in stir up of memory to be built up by the LORD.

 

[just-me]

A covenant can be broken because there are two parties involved. One or the other can break the covenant.
With that said, making void, or disannulling the covenant cannot be done by anybody else except the one who initiated it, and wrote the terms thereof.
Therefore if the covenant/contract is broken by the one who agreed to the terms, the one who initiated it has the right to take legal action.
There is only one way that legal action is not taken, and that is if the covenant is voided out by the initiator.
Now religion can say that the legal action was taken out on Jesus Christ at Calvary. I believe that.
With that said, we also have to realize that there is still a covenant through Christ. What happens if we break that covenant. Legal action is exacted the same way as the old covenant unless it is made void by the initiator.
Question then, "If we break the covenant of Christ, does that covenant also become disannulled, abolished, and void henceforth having no consequence?
If that be the case, what is the purpose of faith?

Post 132 says

Originally Posted by just-me
A covenant can be broken because there are two parties involved. One or the other can break the covenant.
With that said, making void, or disannulling
the covenant cannot be done by anybody else except the one who initiated it, and
wrote the terms thereof.

Those are the terms.

It would be better if you didn't wing it, make it up as you go, and got informed.

Start with the nature of contracts.

You evidently believe that man has power over God's endorsements written in covenant when they are disobedient, and demand not to live accordingly. Just wondering if you believe that we can void out the covenant through Christ also.
Try signing a contract and then refuse to live up to the terms that you agreed with from the start and see what happens. I would expect that you will be sued in claims court.

 

[just-me]

Re: The new covenant of Christ Jesus

Stop it with the shoe horning already.

In Heb 8:7-13, the writer is talking without interruption about the "new covenant,"
and is quoting what is called the "new covenant" in Jer 31:31-34.

You could use a basic hermeneutics class.

You are very uninformed, and are teaching misinformation on the old and new covenants.

I will mention to all again what Hebrews 8:1-6 says that leads to Hebrews 8:7-13, and into the following 9th chapter. You are indicating that there are 2 separate covenants being addressed by explanation using the old and new temple as a mediator or something. I'm saying that these 2 scriptures are talking about the new temple, and the old temple, and the ordinances thereof that include the words of the covenant.

New temple as follows
1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched , and not man.

Old temple as follows
3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer .
4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See , saith he , that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

New temple as follow
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

First was with fault so there was need for another
7 For if that first covenant (added word in KJV) had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Taking out added word covenant
7 For if that first had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Then the writer quote Jeremiah in verses 8-12
31 Behold, the days come , saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake , although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying , Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Then the writer sums it all up, and tells us why he explained it the way he did.
13 In that he saith , A new covenant,(added word in the KJV) he hath made the first old . Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Taking out the added word covenant
13 In that he saith , A new he hath made the first old . Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Hebrews 9:1 Then verily the first covenant (added word in the KJV)had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
Taking out added word covenant
1 Then verily the first had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.

I read all this in context, and you seperate the intireity into 2 distinct, and separate meanings that have no relation one with the other.

 

[Zmouth]

I'll stick with the United States Constitution as the Covenant, Christ as my Creator

 

[just-me]

What we are witnessing is, what was Spiritual, made in the Old Law and placed as a custodian over a community, even as if written in the conscience of the Gentiles(non Jews), became weak to the flesh/carnal man, resulted in sin and death.

But was made perfect through the SPIRIT/spirit man JESUS and HE proclaimed them as; "It is accomplished.", to those who were dead in the flesh/carnal in the sight of GOD, and now resurrected with HIM believing HE is their savior and who has redeem them and gave the New Law of the SPIRIT of life that liberates and from condemnation, placed at hand, as a parent over HIS children, as they 'abide' and 'excel' in righteousness to all of them and run their way home.

It is also spoken in the New about the Old, favored men and women who pleased GOD, not according to a written Law, but have faith and performed what HE has said, even in humble and humility understanding their imperfection in HIS written words and knowing a liberator to come to deliver them from imperfection. Also prophecy of the Old is highlighted, for the liberator have fulfilled all of them and justified as the MESSIAH to come and HE is indeed JESUS of Nazareth.

Those who are dead with CHRIST, who also fulfilled the Old for them, now resurrected to live in the established New, according to the New Covenant.

JESUS said in the Gospel to a follower who want to follow HIM and yet look back at the things of the Old;

"Let the dead bury the dead.When someone starts plowing, they are not to look back."

Whatever is of importance that the people of the New need to know about the Old, is already added in the New for references. The remaining Old that are not written in the New are bitter history of imperfection of the flesh/carnal, ruled by sin and death. Unless those who do not delight and practice the New and move forward, but still continue to set their minds and works according to the things of the flesh/carnal once again, tend to look back and delight the Old may be applicable with the New and introduce them once again and have. For one example, 'tithing'.

JESUS clearly corrected the Jews in the flesh/carnal and yet want to perceive and receive the New, that;

"You cannot put new wine into an old wine bag skin, for it will only swell and burst and the wine loss. New wine should be put in a new wine bag skin."

Old wine bag skin, may refer to those who are still in the flesh/carnal ignorance to the actual requirement of the Law of Moses sound doctrine. And new wine may refer to JESUS's ministry and teachings, written in the New Covenant. And also new wine bag skin may refer to those who GOD allow to perceive through the Law of Moses, the coming MESSIAH, the liberator of their bondage and recognizing HIM when HE arrives and by HIM be born from above not only of water but also of the HOLY SPIRIT(and henceforth perceive and receive and work with HIM the New Testament, in order to excel in righteous that exceeds the Pharisees.

i hope these that i have been guided to share, helps those who have faith, in reminder and in stir up of memory to be built up by the LORD.

The key is to understand the spiritual concepts of the old through faith. As we know according to Jesus' words that nothing will be taken from the law and the prophets, (nothing) until all is complete, and heaven and earth will pass away. Jesus also said that man will live by every word that God has ever spoken. Therefore, to indicate that anything in the old has vanished is very big mistake. If we have this mindset, we can understand scripture as it was originally intended to be understood.

Proving the point, the Old covenant contains promises of a new covenant. Consider the wine skins that you mentioned. The new cannot promise something that is already done. So the wine of the new covenant cannot make the old as good as the new is, for if it could there would be no reason for the new. On the same token, the old can promise something that hasn't happened yet. So the wine of the old can be consumed for the sake of understanding that the new is better. It's just like the garment Jesus talks about. The new garment doesn't need to be patched, but why take new cloth, trying to make the old garment like new? Yet we can see the the old and new garment, and the old and new wineskins are containers of wine and body. So the covenant is the container of God's word. What's inside these containers is still relevant.

 

[just-me]

Re: The new covenant of Christ Jesus

Originally Posted by chubbena
Or one may read where he said that the law is holy, righteous and good and that it's not the law but the sin in him that brought death perhaps he could come to understand
what the ministry that brought death means.

2Co 3:6-11 couldn't be any clearer:

"He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant--not of the letter (Law)
but of the Spirit; for the letter (Law) kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone,
came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because
of its glory, fading though it was, will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?

If the ministry that condemns men (eternal death) men is glorious,
how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness?
For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory.
And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!"

Your problem is simple--unbelief.

Just curious if you think Paul used another source besides the words contained in the old covenant to prove the new covenant was valid.

 

[BradC]

Re: The new covenant of Christ Jesus

Look at moral decline. What has brought this to bear? Ya think it might be that some (such as yourself) have preached that the instructions concerning the love of God must be abolished because of the new covenant? Or are Christians suppose to be oblivious to reality in your opinion?

Moral decline, which has been going on since the time of the fall of Adam, began with a transgression but resulted with the transference of a deceitful heart filled with a sin nature making the whole head sick with no soundness and is responsible for producing every and all sin. It is through this sin nature we have inherited through Adam that we have a body of sin and death having been passed upon all men and resulting in the lust of the flesh. Moral decline begins with the imaginations that come from a sick head and a faint heart and there is no law that can change that. It got so bad that God destroyed the earth with a flood preserving only eight souls. The law will always reveal the wickedness of a man's heart that is separated from God and can modify behavior when adhered to through the flesh, but it has no power to transform the heart and mind and that is why Israel, despite the law, had no power to abstain from transgressing the law except through the flesh and when they failed and fell short they were condemned by the law. The flesh is no match for the holiness of the law and it took the ministration and condemnation of the law to reveal that.

Under the new covenant, that has been ratified by the blood that was shed on the cross through the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, the old sin nature has been crucified with all of it affections and lusts. Before the cross, under the old covenant, the old sin nature had not been crucified and people were left to fend for themselves in the flesh under the law that came by Moses. Christ came to do away (not destroy) with the enforcement of the first by introducing the second (new) with grace and truth making the first old. The first (old) covenant was under the law and you kept it with the flesh. The second (new) covenant is under grace which we enter into by faith through the Spirit. You can't fit the NT believer who is under the grace of the new covenant into the laws of the old covenant. The NT believer can appreciate what the old covenant did for those under the law but the NT believer has something much greater then what was administered under the law. The NT believer has the Spirit of grace and truth abiding in him to lead and guide him in the path of righteousness and the will of God all by faith and not by any the deeds of the law. This goes beyond justification which the NT believer has already when he believed the gospel.

 

[john832]

Paul understands it differently than you do.

"He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant--not of the letter (Law)
but of the Spirit; for the letter (Law) kills, but the Spirit gives life." (2Co 3:6)

So, a minster of a covenant of the Spirit of what? THE LAW!

 

[just-me]

Re: The new covenant of Christ Jesus

Moral decline, which has been going on since the time of the fall of Adam, began with a transgression but resulted with the transference of a deceitful heart filled with a sin nature making the whole head sick with no soundness and is responsible for producing every and all sin. It is through this sin nature we have inherited through Adam that we have a body of sin and death having been passed upon all men and resulting in the lust of the flesh. Moral decline begins with the imaginations that come from a sick head and a faint heart and there is no law that can change that. It got so bad that God destroyed the earth with a flood preserving only eight souls. The law will always reveal the wickedness of a man's heart that is separated from God and can modify behavior when adhered to through the flesh, but it has no power to transform the heart and mind and that is why Israel, despite the law, had no power to abstain from transgressing the law except through the flesh and when they failed and fell short they were condemned by the law. The flesh is no match for the holiness of the law and it took the ministration and condemnation of the law to reveal that.

Under the new covenant, that has been ratified by the blood that was shed on the cross through the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, the old sin nature has been crucified with all of it affections and lusts. Before the cross, under the old covenant, the old sin nature had not been crucified and people were left to fend for themselves in the flesh under the law that came by Moses. Christ came to do away (not destroy) with the enforcement of the first by introducing the second (new) with grace and truth making the first old. The first (old) covenant was under the law and you kept it with the flesh. The second (new) covenant is under grace which we enter into by faith through the Spirit. You can't fit the NT believer who is under the grace of the new covenant into the laws of the old covenant. The NT believer can appreciate what the old covenant did for those under the law but the NT believer has something much greater then what was administered under the law. The NT believer has the Spirit of grace and truth abiding in him to lead and guide him in the path of righteousness and the will of God all by faith and not by any the deeds of the law. This goes beyond justification which the NT believer has already when he believed the gospel.

It is good that God provided sacrifice for atonement of sins beginning with the old, and then sacrifice being confirmed through Christ Jesus for the remission of sins by the new. Being justified by faith are both in the old and the new.

Habakkuk 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written , The just shall live by faith.

Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back , my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

It is good for all mankind that the righteous judgment of God always is with truth and grace confirmed by the blood of the covenant.

Exodus 34:5-6
5 And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.
6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed , The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering , and abundant in goodness and truth,