THE OLD AND NEW COVENANT

Spiritual_Plague · Feb 20, 2012

How could you possibly come to the conclusion of tossing out God based on the new covenant replacing the Mosaic covenant?

No it wouldn't be saying God made a mistake if he had different covenants with man throughout time. There are many covenants God made with man- the Adamic covenant; the Noahic covenant; the Abramic; the Mosaic covenant; The New covenant.....are all covenants listed from the scriptures where people were instructed by God to live and behave in certain ways that are all different than each other. To live under the Noahic covenant would be sin under the Mosaic covenant.

I don't think you understand how God has worked with man under covenants throughout the beginning of time, and because of that....it's pretty confusing for you when you don't realize that when God provides a new covenant with man concerning laws, judgments, orders or whatever, it replaces the previous covenant. Apostle Paul told the church that in Galatians chapter 4; the writer of Hebrews says it plainly through the entire book; Colossians 2:14; Romans 7; and many other scriptures tell you the same.

New covenant believers need to get their mind on the new covenant that God has provided mankind to engage Him with and vise verse.

Avinu · Feb 20, 2012

In one post you gave the wrong word and the post you are currently referring to, you gave the "root" instead of the actual word used, which changed the meaning of what the verse was saying. The word used is "new" which is different than the word used for "renew". Then in another post you presented Hebrews 8:13 as saying that the 1st covenant mentioned can even be referred to as the "better" covenant, when that is the exact opposite of what the context is saying. So far you've been presenting dishonestly to try to make the scriptures say something that aren't saying at all
Do you understand what the root of a word means? Apparently not, and I never said 'better' covenant.

No, knowledge of the tanak? I know enough to know what the covenant from Sinai is in reference to Galatians 4 that apostle Paul said to throw out:As I said, no knowledge of tanak.

Exodus 24:4, 9
And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD. And he rose early in the morning, and built an altar at the foot of the mountain, and twelve pillars according to the twelve tribes of Israel. Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read in the hearing of the people. And they said, "All that the LORD has said we will do, and be obedient."
And what exactly do you think the book of the covenant consisted of?

The 10 commandments were apart of the book of the covenant...so those went too.

So you're saying the Ten Commandments are completely obsolete?

Spiritual_Plague · Feb 20, 2012

Quote:
Do you understand what the root of a word means? Apparently not, and I never said 'better' covenant.

Yes I understand what I means, and when you referenced the root word, it didn't hold true to the meaning of the word. "New" and "renew" are 2 different words whether they share the same root or not.

On page 2 of these posts (pretty sure page 2) You said "first" referred even to "what's best"....so I paraphrased. Whether you were just throwing out general definitions, it wasn't a witness that held true to what the scripture specifically says is the "best" or "better" covenant.

No, knowledge of the tanak? I know enough to know what the covenant from Sinai is in reference to Galatians 4 that apostle Paul said to throw out:As I said, no knowledge of tanak.

Exodus 24:4, 9
And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD. And he rose early in the morning, and built an altar at the foot of the mountain, and twelve pillars according to the twelve tribes of Israel. Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read in the hearing of the people. And they said, "All that the LORD has said we will do, and be obedient."

And what exactly do you think the book of the covenant consisted of?

Check out the context of Exodus 24:4 concerning "all the words of the Lord" that dealt with God's instruction to Moses and you will know everything the covenant consisted of.

The 10 commandments were apart of the book of the covenant...so those went too.

Avinu said:

The new covenant scriptures are saying the old covenant, which was contained in the book of the covenant that Moses wrote (Ex.24:4, 9), which did includ the 10 commandments (Ex. 34:28), have been made obsolete. Rom. 7; Col. 2:14; Gal. 4; Heb. 8:13; Heb. 9 stand as witness to this as many other scriptures I can't recall at the moment.

Grandpa · Feb 20, 2012

Avinu said:

Only for those who have been Saved by the Lord Jesus Christ.

Otherwise it is the schoolmaster for the rest of the world, designed to bring you to Him.

Avinu · Feb 20, 2012

Spiritual_Plague · Feb 20, 2012

Grandpa said:

Yes, I didn't consider those who do not have Christ yet.

Gal 3:23-25
But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor [to bring us] to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Grandpa · Feb 20, 2012

Avinu said:

We don't keep the 10 commandments, no one does.

But those that have been saved by the Lord Jesus don't break them either.

Romans 6

3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7For he that is dead is freed from sin.

We have been freed from sin. We have been freed from its curse. We have been freed from the Law.

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Spiritual_Plague · Feb 20, 2012

Avinu said:

They do....we'll start at

Romans 7:1-7
"1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

Paul is teaching we are "released" (same word used as abolished in Ephesians 2:15) from "the law". He quotes from the 10 commandments showing you that "the law" we have been released (abolished) from is the 10 commandments (the covenant from Sinai- Ex. 34:28; Deut. 4:13) and now we have been joined to Christ.

SAME contrast used in Galatians 4...let's check it out:

21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written: “Rejoice, O barren, You who do not bear! Break forth and shout, You who are not in labor! For the desolate has many more children Than she who has a husband.” 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

The covenant from Mount Sinai is to be CAST OUT...the covenant from Mount Sinai is....

Exd 34:28 "...He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments."

Deu 4:13 "So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone."

The ark of the covenant was the "container" of the covenant....meaning inside it was the covenant. Inside the ark was..."the tablets of the covenant"- Yes the 10 commandments. (Hebrews 9:4)

OK...so now that we know that the covenant from Mount Sinai was the 10 commandments, we see that Paul tells us to CAST OUT that covenant in Galatians 4, just as he told the Romans in chapter 7 the same in a different manner.

Let's keep moving....Colossians 2:14

Col 2:14, 16
"14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross...16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,"

"The hand writing of requirements" is a reference to "the law" contained in the book of the covenant (which also contained the 10 commandments) that the people were held to (Exodus 24:7)...this included sabbaths, festivals, new moons, etc.... Paul says it's been WIPED OUT, so don't let people judge you over not participating in them.

Let's keep moving....Hebrews 8:13; 9:1, 4

"13 In that He says, "A new [covenant]," He has made the first obsolete...9:1 Then indeed, even the first [covenant] had...4 which had...the tablets of the covenant;"

1st Covenant was made obsolete that had the tablets of the covenant (the 10 commandments)

There are plenty more scriptures that speak of "the law", which we know is referring to the book of the covenant that Moses wrote which included the 10 commandments.

"We are not under the law" (Rom. 6:14; Gal. 5:18).
"Christ is the end of the law" (Rom. 10:4).
"Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ .... we are no longer under a schoolmaster" (Gal. 3:24, 25)
"The law" has been abolished (Eph. 2:15).

No, I do not believe in following the covenant from Sinai that we are supposed to throw out- the 10 commandments. I believe in following Jesus through the teachings He established for his disciples to follow under the New Covenant that He established with His death and Resurrection.

That being said....we do have SOME of the SAME commands under the NEW Covenant in Christ beyond the 10 commandments. Specifically out of the 10 commandments, I only identify 1 that is NOT the same under the New Covenant- new are no longer required to observe the Sabbath...only that we do not forsake gathering together with other believers (there is no mode or weekly amount of times we are required to gather together- some gathered daily under the new covenant to encourage one another in The Lord).

As of other commands that are different from the Old....we are aloud to eat whatever we like as long as it doesn't bruise our conscience or the conscience of the ones we are eating with.

Start embracing the New Covenant....it's "a better covenant build on better promises" (Hebrews 8:6)

loveme1 · Feb 20, 2012

Grandpa said:

If you are saved, it does not give you a free pass to break the commandments, if anything you are expected to obey and fear them more than those who do not know of them!!

Laodicea · Feb 20, 2012

Matthew 13:52
(52) Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure
things new and old.

Notice that Jesus said things new and old. What we want is not just the Old , not just the New But, both.

eternally-gratefull · Feb 20, 2012

I think the problem is people misunderstand the first covenant.

The first started with the tablets. The ten commands. If you follow these. I will be your God. I will give you peace, I will give you have a relationship with you.

later, many laws were added, And a means was given to restore relationship if a command was broken. This means was first introduced at the passover, and later at the temple, called animal sacrifice. As the author of Hebrews states, without the shedding of blood there can be no forgiveness.

looking at a whole, there were only two ways to be right with God.

1. Perfect adherence to the law. Only Christ was able to do this
2. Animal sacrifice.

However, As the author of Hebrews also states. The blood of bulls and goats can NEVER take away sin. So the old covenant was flawed.

As Grandpa stated. It is a teaching tool, to lead us by the hand to Christ. Because Christ came to fulfill the law (the requirement) by giving the one sacrifice which could take away sin.

This is where the new covenant comes in.

If you want to be saved by the old. there is only one way, sinless perfection. Otherwise the old can not save you.

The new covenant states Christ came and became that "lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world"

This does not give us a license to sin however. If you want to be blessed by God, live in peace (spiritual) and have a close relationship with God. The law still stands. However, no aspect of the Old will save you in any way. People who believe it will are in danger, because they reject the new covenant, and try to replace it with the old.

Israel · Feb 20, 2012

Laodicea said:

Matthew 9:16-17

16No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse.

17Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

Why?

Matthew 6:19-21

19Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

20But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

21For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Matthew 23

1Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

2Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

4For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

5But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,

6And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,

7And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.

8But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

10Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

11But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

12And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

13But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

14Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

15Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

16Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

17Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?

18And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.

19Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?

20Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.

21And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.

22And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.

23Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

24Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

25Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

26Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

27Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

28Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

29Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

30And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

31Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

32Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

34Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

36Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

39For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Grandpa · Feb 20, 2012

loveme1 said:

Everybody knows Gods Law. There is no one that thinks it is ok to kill other people. There is no one that thinks it is ok to steal. The People who break Gods Law are condemned by Gods Law and themselves.

Those who are saved are not under the Law, otherwise they would be condemned too.

The Law only points out your sin and therefore your condemnation. Keep looking to it if thats what you want to see.

If you want to see your Salvation you must look to Jesus. There is nowhere else to go.

The strength of your own obedience will not save you. Or make you Holy.

Only Jesus will save you and only Jesus can make you Holy.

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THE OLD AND NEW COVENANT

Spiritual_Plague

Senior Member

Avinu

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Spiritual_Plague

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Grandpa

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Avinu

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Spiritual_Plague

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Grandpa

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Spiritual_Plague

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loveme1

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Laodicea

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eternally-gratefull

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Israel

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Grandpa

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