The Plan of salvation.

[ForestGreenCook]

It does not say arranged themselves to hear Paul again.

I agree that the scripture does not say that, but you said that, in explaining that ordained ment arranged,, then going on to say that they were arranged (ordained) TO HEAR PAUL AGAIN. Check back to your post, and see the words for yourself.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Interesting that you didn't include the next verse from my post. v.45 explains who will come to Jesus. Those who have listened and learned from the Father.

And who is it that can listen and learn spiritual things from a spiritual Father?

i'm glad you asked. It's obvious you didn't bother to even read the very next verse, so here it is:
Jn 6:45 - It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

That answers your question.

John 10:26-28 - But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you, my sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me, and I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

The un-regenerant man cannot discern spiritual things, and thinks them to be foolishness (1 Cor 2:14).

True. But 1 Cor 2:14 STILL isn't about the gospel promise. Paul's description of Gentiles, who had no Law, had the Law written on their hearts. God created mankind with a conscience. That means everyone has a "moral ability". And shoots down the Calvinist claim that unregenerate man cannot believe apart from regeneration.

I've shown you that regeneration and salvation are equated in Eph 2;5. They go together. Show me one without the other in the Bible.

Can't do it. Then, in 2:8 we read that we are saved by grace through faith. This PROVES that faith PRECEDES salvation and regeneration.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I agree that the scripture does not say that, but you said that, in explaining that ordained ment arranged,, then going on to say that they were arranged (ordained) TO HEAR PAUL AGAIN. Check back to your post, and see the words for yourself.

My post was clear enough for anyone to follow, except maybe those who have such a bias that the facts don't get through.

Look, the issue comes down to WHO did the 'tasso-ing' of the Gentiles? The verb voice is either middle or passive. So which is it? The ONLY way to determine is by context, which I SHOWED you. v.42-44 shows the high interest in the people to hear Paul again, so the 'tasso' refers to the people acting on themselves. The middle voice negates the idea that God was ordaining them to eternal life.

The people did it to themselves. That is what the middle voice means.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

FreeGrace2 said:
Please show me ANY verse that clearly limits Christ's death for ONLY believers.

John 6:37-40
37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.
39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

Nope. Nothing about dying ONLY for some.

John 17:2 - For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.

Still nope. Nothing about dying ONLY for some.

Both texts speak of the fact that God the Father has given believers to His Son. That makes sense. But neither even addresses who He died for.

Here's my list of verses that clarifies all this:

John 1:29 - The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
John 4:42 - They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”
2 Cor 5-
14 For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.
15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.
19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
1 Tim 2-
3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior,
4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

I've heard all the ways Calvinists try to spin these verses trying to make them sound like Christ's death was limited.

Yet, there is no context for any of these passages that support the attempts by Calvinists.
1 Tim 4:10 - That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
1 John 2:2 - He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

You have heard of all of the defense scriptures explaining your misinterpretation of these scriptures, so I will not put you through that again, seeing that you have been indoctrinated in a false interpretation of them.

Your belief, if I am not mistaken, is that God gives mankind the freedom to make choices for himself, and that God will not usurp his authority over mankind's choice. I also believe that God gives mankind the freedom to make his own choices as to how he wants to live his life as he sojourns here in this world. That is why, by his foreknowledge, he saw that all of mankind's choices did not include seeking after him (Psalms 53:2-3). That is why it was necessary for God to choose some of them to be adopted, as his children, by Jesus's death on the cross, so that he would have a people that would praise and honor him, by giving him all of the glory, and taking no glory of themselves.

God will accomplish all of his will, by usurping his authority over his adopted family (Dan 4:35) as to their eternal inheritance.
[QUOTE="FreeGrace2, post: 4889118, member: 30492

 

[ForestGreenCook]

My post was clear enough for anyone to follow, except maybe those who have such a bias that the facts don't get through.

Look, the issue comes down to WHO did the 'tasso-ing' of the Gentiles? The verb voice is either middle or passive. So which is it? The ONLY way to determine is by context, which I SHOWED you. v.42-44 shows the high interest in the people to hear Paul again, so the 'tasso' refers to the people acting on themselves. The middle voice negates the idea that God was ordaining them to eternal life.

The people did it to themselves. That is what the middle voice means.

Matt 11:25 - I thank thee O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and has revealed them unto babes. Do you think of yourself as wise and prudent?

 

[Proverbs_Four]

The Plan of salvation was instituted immediately after the fall of man.

The Plan of Salvation was instituted here:

Genesis 1:3 "And God said, Let there be light: and there was light." (KJV)

-

 

[FreeGrace2]

You have heard of all of the defense scriptures explaining your misinterpretation of these scriptures, so I will not put you through that again, seeing that you have been indoctrinated in a false interpretation of them.

There is nothing to "interpret" with verses that say that Christ died for all.

Your belief, if I am not mistaken, is that God gives mankind the freedom to make choices for himself, and that God will not usurp his authority over mankind's choice. I also believe that God gives mankind the freedom to make his own choices as to how he wants to live his life as he sojourns here in this world.

So far, this is correct, yes.

That is why, by his foreknowledge, he saw that all of mankind's choices did not include seeking after him (Psalms 53:2-3).

Uh, did you bother to read v.1? Who is the subject in this passage?

That is why it was necessary for God to choose some of them to be adopted, as his children, by Jesus's death on the cross, so that he would have a people that would praise and honor him, by giving him all of the glory, and taking no glory of themselves.

lol. So, basically, this comes down to the idea that God created humanity and then foresaw that NONE of them would praise and honor Him, so He had to choose out of the whole batch, some and make them praise and honor Him. Unbelievable. Seriously??

God will accomplish all of his will, by usurping his authority over his adopted family (Dan 4:35) as to their eternal inheritance.
Yeah, right. Usurp. Force. Arm twist. etc.

You aren't even in the same universe as the Bible.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Matt 11:25 - I thank thee O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and has revealed them unto babes. Do you think of yourself as wise and prudent?

Same as young Timothy.

2 Tim 3:15 - and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus

Real disappointing that you totally ignored the FACT about the middle voice evidence in Acts 13:48.

Kinda shows that you really aren't into the truth as much as into your own opinions.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

There is nothing to "interpret" with verses that say that Christ died for all.


So far, this is correct, yes.


Uh, did you bother to read v.1? Who is the subject in this passage?


lol. So, basically, this comes down to the idea that God created humanity and then foresaw that NONE of them would praise and honor Him, so He had to choose out of the whole batch, some and make them praise and honor Him. Unbelievable. Seriously??

You sound like the critics, in Jesus's days on earth, who rejected his doctrine, and are still doing the same in this day and time.

 

[studentoftheword]

The Plan of salvation was instituted immediately after the fall of man. Adam and Eve broke the 10 commandments of which demanded them to die after proving them guilty. For this case Elohim had to seek a way of purging out sin from mankind;

No ------I think your wrong here in your assumption --------God's plan for Salvation was planned before God created the Earth ----you see God is omniscient----God already knew the choice Adam would make to disobey Him before He created the world -------His Plan from the beginning was to bring His Son into this Physical world to repair what was about to happen in the Garden -----

EPHESIANS 1:4
AMP
just as [in His love] He chose us in Christ [actually selected us for Himself as His own] before the foundation of the world, so that we would be holy [that is, consecrated, set apart for Him, purpose-driven] and blameless in His sight. In love

And Adam and Eve didn't break any of the 10 Commandments as the 10 Commandments were not Given until Moses comes into the picture later -----they disobeyed God's One command not to eat of the tree of Good and Evil -----God then had to punish the sin they committed -----but it had nothing to do with the 10 given a Mount Sinai ------

Also interesting to note In Genesis in the Garden is that God made clothes for Adam and Eve out of Animal skins ------so 2 animals had to have been slaughtered by God to clothe them in animal skins --

So was ----Blood shed in the Garden to cover Adam and Eve's sin -?????-----I personally think so ------I believe this was God fulfilling His own plan for animal Sacrifices to cover sin for a time until it was time to bring His Son into this world to shed His Blood to cover all sin for all time -------

GENESIS 3:21
AMP
The Lord God made tunics of [animal] skins for Adam and his wife and clothed them.


This is from Christianity>com
The Old Testament Situation
To understand animal sacrifice, we must start at the beginning. Genesis 3 records the story of the fall of humanity, during which Adam and Eve disobeyed God, bringing sin into the world.

Genesis 3:21 then records the first death in the Bible, when God made clothes for Adam and Eve out of animal skin. Presumably, this would have been shocking and horrifying to the first couple. It was a graphic demonstration of the nature of their sin. Because they sinned, they now had to be clothed, or covered. That covering was only accomplished by the shedding of blood, a metaphor for their spiritual death and a foreshadowing of things to come.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Same as young Timothy.

2 Tim 3:15 - and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus

Real disappointing that you totally ignored the FACT about the middle voice evidence in Acts 13:48.

Kinda shows that you really aren't into the truth as much as into your own opinions.

What is your misinterpretation of this scripture? John 17:2?

 

[FreeGrace2]

You sound like the critics, in Jesus's days on earth, who rejected his doctrine, and are still doing the same in this day and time.

Could you explain how I "sound" like critics of Jesus' doctrine when I believe Jesus' doctrine?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Runningman said:
This isn’t personal for me. I just make sure your heresies don’t drag other people down with you and put Christianity in a negative light. If I see anything like your words that blatantly makes God looks bad I’ll refute it agin, and again, and again.

What is your misinterpretation of this scripture? John 17:2?

How about we finish what has already been started, ok?

Reply to my response above. Then I'll deal with John 17:2.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

You sound like the critics, in Jesus's days on earth, who rejected his doctrine, and are still doing the same in this day and time.

John 9:39-41 NLT - "Then Jesus told him, "I entered this world to render judgment--to give sight to the blind and to show those who think they see that they are blind." Some Pharisees who were standing nearby heard him and asked, "Are you saying we're blind?" "If you were blind, you wouldn't be guilty," Jesus replied. "But you remain guilty because you claim you can see."

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Could you explain how I "sound" like critics of Jesus' doctrine when I believe Jesus' doctrine?

You may think that you believe Jesus's doctrine, but your comments tend to prove that you do not.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You may think that you believe Jesus's doctrine, but your comments tend to prove that you do not.

Prove what you claim that my comments prove.

I use verses that say what I claim. Which is why I claim them.

But, prove your case.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

How about we finish what has already been started, ok?

Correct me, if I am wrong, but is "what has already been started" refer to your statement that your faith is responsible for delivering you eternally? If so, your faith can be responsible for delivering you from many different things as you sojourn here, but your faith can never deliver you eternally.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Correct me, if I am wrong, but is "what has already been started" refer to your statement that your faith is responsible for delivering you eternally?

No, I didn't say that. God saves those who believe. From 1 Cor 1:21

If so, your faith can be responsible for delivering you from many different things as you sojourn here, but your faith can never deliver you eternally.

God does all the delivering. Why do you think I said what you think I said?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Prove what you claim that my comments prove.

I use verses that say what I claim. Which is why I claim them.

But, prove your case.

Refer to my post #77. If you believe that all of the salvation scriptures are referencing eternal deliverance, then you are believing in eternal deliverance by your good works. This is why you are believing that your faith is responsible for your eternal deliverance.

I am trying to reflect on exactly what our disagreement is over. If it is over 2 Tim 3:15 - Our faith which is in Christ Jesus makes us wise (gives us knowledge) through the scriptures that our eternal deliverance (salvation) was accomplished, not by our faith, but by the faithfulness of Jesus going to the cross to redeem us from our sins. (Eph 2:8 & Gal 2:16)

and if it is over Acts 13:48 - Arrangement (ordained) to eternal life is explained in Eph 1

Your problem is in the fact that you are preconceived in rejecting that eternal deliverance only comes through God's sovereign grace, without any action on the part of mankind, and this misunderstanding is because you are not accepting that save=deliver, saved=delivered, salvation=deliverance., and most of them are referring to deliverances that his elect receive as they sojourn here in this world.

Within the inspired scriptures is the explanation of how God eternally delivered his elect by adopting them as his children by Jesus's death on the cross (Eph 1). The inspired scriptures are directed to God's elect, and are instructions in how he wants them to live their lives as they sojourn here on earth, and are not written to the non-elect instructing them how they can get delivered eternally..

 

[FreeGrace2]

Refer to my post #77. If you believe that all of the salvation scriptures are referencing eternal deliverance, then you are believing in eternal deliverance by your good works.

I DON'T believe that eternal deliverance comes by one's "good works". Your premise is wrong.

This is why you are believing that your faith is responsible for your eternal deliverance.

No, my faith is NOT NOT NOT responsible for my eternal deliverance.

Do you know what "Jesus saves" refers to? It seems not.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Who is doing the saving in this verse?

I am trying to reflect on exactly what our disagreement is over. If it is over 2 Tim 3:15 - Our faith which is in Christ Jesus makes us wise (gives us knowledge) through the scriptures that our eternal deliverance (salvation) was accomplished, not by our faith, but by the faithfulness of Jesus going to the cross to redeem us from our sins. (Eph 2:8 & Gal 2:16)

and if it is over Acts 13:48 - Arrangement (ordained) to eternal life is explained in Eph 1

Please rephrase so I can understand each pont It think you are trying to make in the 2 paragraphs.

Your problem is in the fact that you are preconceived in rejecting that eternal deliverance only comes through God's sovereign grace

Wrong again. Of course God's sovereign grace is the basis of everything, including our salvation.

However, it seems that the words "Sovereign grace" is code for Calvinism.

This is how God's grace is involved in salvation.

Titus 2:11 - For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

Do you understand what this verse is saying?

without any action on the part of mankind, and this misunderstanding is because you are not accepting that save=deliver, saved=delivered, salvation=deliverance., and most of them are referring to deliverances that his elect receive as they sojourn here in this world.

So you obviously deny that salvation is offered to man, and man must accept the offer then.

Within the inspired scriptures is the explanation of how God eternally delivered his elect by adopting them as his children by Jesus's death on the cross (Eph 1).

Please don't give me a chapter. Give me the exact verses that say what you are claiming here.

The inspired scriptures are directed to God's elect

Titus 2:11 includes everyone.

and are instructions in how he wants them to live their lives as they sojourn here on earth, and are not written to the non-elect instructing them how they can get delivered eternally..

Then explain why Paul wasted his time answering the jailer's question about what he MUST DO to be saved.

According to your theology, can cannot do anything for salvation. Man is simply picked for it, unconditionally, or not picked for it.

Either way, there should be nothing the jailer can to to be saved. Yet Paul gave him an answer.

What say you?