The Rejection of Obedience

[PennEd]

Alright, you want to go to the Greek? Let's do this.

Matthew 5:48 - Ἔσεσθε οὖν ὑμεῖς τέλειοι, ὡς ὁ πατὴρ ὑμῶν ὁ οὐράνιος τέλειός ἐστιν.

Taking one of the possible english words out of a list doesn't make you correct. It's like the difference between saying "Oh look, there's a bear!" vs "You have the right to bear arms." Context shows which the word means. So why does this word τέλειος translate to "perfect" and not "complete" despite "complete" being in the lexicon? You have to go to the surrounding context of the sentence in order to get there.

τέλειοι is a predicate adjective agreeing with ὑμεῖς (“you”). So Jesus is making a statement about the state/character that His disciples are to be: they are to be τέλειοι. Just as who else is? The Father. If τέλειοι means complete, then if we are to be τέλειοι as the Father is τέλειός, and you want to substitute the word "complete" then what is the Father complete in that we have to be like Him? That doesn't even make contextual sense.

So I think you need to do a bit more learning instead of making points that aren't correct.

And as for the rest of your comment, you're missing the understanding of the Pharisees. Jesus literally told the people to follow what they say but DON'T do what they do because they were spiritually dead (white washed tombs). "Exceeding" righteousness of the scribes isn't a hard thing to do when you're going up against someone who is spiritually dead. Because the point of the Holy Spirit is to refine you INTO perfection, JUST as He is perfect, and Holy. You need to do some repenting if you think your actions don't matter or have eternal consequences.

Please see above to the other worker for salvation.

 

[DavidLamb]

Grading on a curve literally means you get to heaven without being perfect. Otherwise, he would require perfection without a curve. That should not be confused with the law that Christ fulfilled which is something completely separate which is taking our punishment for all the rules we broke.

Also Jesus said to a young man: Matthew 19:21 — Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

Did he say slightly perfect? Almost perfect? Be better? Be more holy? Nope. "Perfect". Which means, that is obtainable. That does not mean God only accepts those who are perfect, it means perfection IS obtainable. So your entire premise that someone can never be perfect in this world is false. The only way TO get there is by following Christ, but that doesn't negate that it isn't possible. Every single person to claims to follow Christ should be working towards perfection to be holy as He is holy.

The perfection by which entrance to heaven is granted is the perfection of Jesus Christ. Paul writes about that perfect righteousness:

NKJV Php 3:8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ
Php 3:9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;

When we actually go to heaven, we are told we shall be with Him and like Him. We will then be completely free from sin.

 

[Delvianna]

Please see above to the other worker for salvation.

Just don't forget that you're rejecting an order from God when He asks you, "Why do you call me Lord Lord and not do what I say?" Because your argument that you classify it as works isn't going to fly.

 

[Delvianna]

The perfection by which entrance to heaven is granted is the perfection of Jesus Christ. Paul writes about that perfect righteousness:

NKJV Php 3:8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ
Php 3:9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;

When we actually go to heaven, we are told we shall be with Him and like Him. We will then be completely free from sin.

You're conflating Christ's righteousness with the believer's own state of perfection. Philippians 3:9 does teach that Paul does not rely on a righteousness of his own that comes from the Law, but that does not mean Christ's personal perfection is simply substituted for the believer's obedience. In fact, the very next verses make that clear. Paul says, “Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on” (Philippians 3:12). He had already spoken of having righteousness “through faith in Christ” in verse 9, yet he explicitly says that he had not yet been perfected. Therefore, receiving righteousness from God through faith and actually being perfected are not presented as the same thing because it sounds like you're saying you are automatically perfect because Christ is.

Also, saying that we will ultimately be completely free from sin when we are with Christ doesn't mean that believers are considered already perfected in their present earthly state once you accept Christ. Scripture repeatedly distinguishes the righteousness received from God from the believer's ongoing pursuit of holiness and obedience. Christ's perfection is Christ's... the command to “be perfect” in Matthew 5:48 is given to His disciples. Again, if you're saying that Christ's perfection makes the believer's own pursuit of perfection unnecessary, Philippians 3:12–14 directly contradicts that. Paul had faith in Christ and righteousness from God, yet he was still actively pressing toward perfection as we are ordered/commanded to do.

 

[DavidLamb]

You're conflating Christ's righteousness with the believer's own state of perfection. Philippians 3:9 does teach that Paul does not rely on a righteousness of his own that comes from the Law, but that does not mean Christ's personal perfection is simply substituted for the believer's obedience. In fact, the very next verses make that clear. Paul says, “Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on” (Philippians 3:12). He had already spoken of having righteousness “through faith in Christ” in verse 9, yet he explicitly says that he had not yet been perfected. Therefore, receiving righteousness from God through faith and actually being perfected are not presented as the same thing because it sounds like you're saying you are automatically perfect because Christ is.

Also, saying that we will ultimately be completely free from sin when we are with Christ doesn't mean that believers are considered already perfected in their present earthly state once you accept Christ. Scripture repeatedly distinguishes the righteousness received from God from the believer's ongoing pursuit of holiness and obedience. Christ's perfection is Christ's... the command to “be perfect” in Matthew 5:48 is given to His disciples. Again, if you're saying that Christ's perfection makes the believer's own pursuit of perfection unnecessary, Philippians 3:12–14 directly contradicts that. Paul had faith in Christ and righteousness from God, yet he was still actively pressing toward perfection as we are ordered/commanded to do.

I have said before that I do indeed believe that a Christian is to obey. Our obedience is not perfect in this life, though. John makes this clear in his first letter:

NKJV 1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

 

[Delvianna]

I have said before that I do indeed believe that a Christian is to obey. Our obedience is not perfect in this life, though. John makes this clear in his first letter:

NKJV 1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

What is the context of 1 John 1:8? You can't take “if we say we have no sin” as a standalone statement and use it as a universal declaration that makes it impossible to obey Christ's commands perfectly in every respect. John is addressing the denial of sin and the need for confession and cleansing. You have to reconcile that statement with the rest of John's letter rather than making 1 John 1:8 the controlling definition of Christian obedience.

In fact, John immediately says that he is writing these things “so that you may not sin” (1 John 2:1). He doesn't say, “so that you may continue sinning because perfection is impossible.” He then says, “he who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked” (1 John 2:6).

And this is the problem with your argument regarding Christ's command to “be perfect” in Matthew 5:48. If “we cannot be perfect in this life” means that Christ's command is fundamentally unattainable, then you're making Christ's command more burdensome than the Law in the very respect you're trying to argue against. Christ didn't say, “try to be better.” He said, “You shall be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

 

[PennEd]

I have said before that I do indeed believe that a Christian is to obey. Our obedience is not perfect in this life, though. John makes this clear in his first letter:

NKJV 1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

It’s a relatively new revelation to me that those that preach a sinless perfectionism doctrine, are the SAME that preach you can lose your salvation, and have your Heavenly Father toss you into Hell for doing or not doing something.

PLEASE, any new, or confused Christian reading this thread without comment, if you are a born again child of God do not follow this destructive doctrine.

 

[Delvianna]

It’s a relatively new revelation to me that those that preach a sinless perfectionism doctrine, are the SAME that preach you can lose your salvation, and have your Heavenly Father toss you into Hell for doing or not doing something.

PLEASE, any new, or confused Christian reading this thread without comment, if you are a born again child of God do not follow this destructive doctrine.

Just as Christ knew who was truly His when He called the disciples, Scripture also makes clear that perseverance matters. Christ knows who will remain faithful to Him, but Scripture is equally clear about the possibility of falling away. You can't dismiss those warnings simply by labeling them a “destructive doctrine.”

If anything, this thread is proof that it's far better to read scripture yourself and ask God to give you understanding than parroting/following worldly approved "doctrine".

 

[2Christ]

So there is no curve. The Bible tells us that we are all sinners. The only way we can gain access to heaven is by having9 a sinless Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ. A sinner either has his/her sins dealt with and forgiven by the Saviour, or not. There is no curve between "unsaved sinner" and "saved sinner."

I agree that saved sinners, Christians, are to pursue holiness.

Hello David,

Jesus started his ministry preaching repentance from sin and the kingdom of Heaven and he did tell everyone who heart, how to enter it!. His sacrifice atoning for our sins made all things possible but one must be willing to take they cross and follow him. the way is narrow and few find it.

 

[DavidLamb]

What is the context of 1 John 1:8? You can't take “if we say we have no sin” as a standalone statement and use it as a universal declaration that makes it impossible to obey Christ's commands perfectly in every respect. John is addressing the denial of sin and the need for confession and cleansing. You have to reconcile that statement with the rest of John's letter rather than making 1 John 1:8 the controlling definition of Christian obedience.

In fact, John immediately says that he is writing these things “so that you may not sin” (1 John 2:1). He doesn't say, “so that you may continue sinning because perfection is impossible.” He then says, “he who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked” (1 John 2:6).

And this is the problem with your argument regarding Christ's command to “be perfect” in Matthew 5:48. If “we cannot be perfect in this life” means that Christ's command is fundamentally unattainable, then you're making Christ's command more burdensome than the Law in the very respect you're trying to argue against. Christ didn't say, “try to be better.” He said, “You shall be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

Yes, of course Christians must strive for holiness, and I have tried to emphasize the fact that I am certainly not saying that we shouldn't bother about obeying God quite the opposite! However, the notion that we can become absolutely sinless in this life is not found in Scripture. You quote Jesus saying that we are to be "perfect." Does that mean sinless? I don't know Greek, but I understand from the concordance that the word translated "perfect" does not mean "sinless" but "complete":

"G5046
τέλειος
teleios
tel'-i-os
From G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect.
Total KJV occurrences: 19"

The only Person described in the Bible as being sinless is the Lord Jesus Christ:

NKJV Heb 4:15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.

Let me ask you, do you claim to be sinless? To live every moment of your life loving God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength?

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Let me ask you, do you claim to be sinless? To live every moment of your life loving God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength?

Why do you keep falsely accusing people who encourage obedience to God of claiming this? It is a deflection of your own responsibility to God. Do you not care about God and what He says on the matter?

We obey God because that is what makes Him happy. The focus is on HIM, not on us excusing sin because of our imperfection.

Please, this is not about us anymore. It's about living with God in a good reciprocal relationship with Him and making Him happy.

 

[DavidLamb]

Why do you keep falsely accusing people who encourage obedience to God of claiming this? It is a deflection of your own responsibility to God. Do you not care about God and what He says on the matter?

We obey God because that is what makes Him happy. The focus is on HIM, not on us excusing sin because of our imperfection.

Please, this is not about us anymore. It's about living with God in a good reciprocal relationship with Him and making Him happy.

I didn't accuse anybody. I wouldn't do such a thing. I was asking a question, not accusing. Sorry that you seem to have misunderstood. Nor have I excused sin because of our imperfection. My post started with these words: "Yes, of course Christians must strive for holiness, and I have tried to emphasize the fact that I am certainly not saying that we shouldn't bother about obeying God quite the opposite!" Can you tell me what I wrote that made you think that I was accusing anybody, or that I was seeking to excuse sin, so that if I worded something carelessly and gave those impressions, I can try to avoid doing so in future. Thank you.

 

[2Christ]

Yes, of course Christians must strive for holiness, and I have tried to emphasize the fact that I am certainly not saying that we shouldn't bother about obeying God quite the opposite! However, the notion that we can become absolutely sinless in this life is not found in Scripture. You quote Jesus saying that we are to be "perfect." Does that mean sinless? I don't know Greek, but I understand from the concordance that the word translated "perfect" does not mean "sinless" but "complete":

"G5046
τέλειος
teleios
tel'-i-os
From G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect.
Total KJV occurrences: 19"

The only Person described in the Bible as being sinless is the Lord Jesus Christ:

NKJV Heb 4:15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet

Hello David, Many do make this mistake, that is to say that people who promote obedience by following what Christ commanded us are sinless and promote this. this is absolutely false and it is used as a common excuse but is not, no one here promotes this sinless perfection only God/Jesus is perfect.

 

[Delvianna]

Yes, of course Christians must strive for holiness, and I have tried to emphasize the fact that I am certainly not saying that we shouldn't bother about obeying God quite the opposite! However, the notion that we can become absolutely sinless in this life is not found in Scripture. You quote Jesus saying that we are to be "perfect." Does that mean sinless? I don't know Greek, but I understand from the concordance that the word translated "perfect" does not mean "sinless" but "complete":

Yes it does mean sinless just as the Father is sinless. I broke down the greek already for this verse and it does not mean complete. See post #499, otherwise you have to ask what does the Father do in order to be "complete" since we are supposed to be like Him. That context is inferring the Father isn't perfect. I said to PennEd, please stop selecting words from the Lexicon when you have to draw the context surrounding the verse. Again, please see post #499

The only Person described in the Bible as being sinless is the Lord Jesus Christ:

NKJV Heb 4:15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.

He was sinless from the beginning, but that doesn't mean that with the Holy Spirit, that is something we cannot obtain as I gave scripture. Here is another verse from 1 John:
1 John 3:6

“Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.”

Let me ask you, do you claim to be sinless? To live every moment of your life loving God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength?

You seriously misunderstand what I'm saying. There are two arguments here.

1) Striving in obedience is a walk you continue to do (pick up your cross). The pursuit of perfection is where salvation lies because you are repenting (turning) from sin. No where did I say you have to cross that finish line in order to be saved. So No, I'm not claiming I'm perfect, I AM striving to get there because I love the Father and I want to do His will, as should EVERYONE who claims to follow Christ.

2) Perfection is a state that everyone can get to with the Holy Spirit. To say this is wrong, is to say scripture is wrong. As you are rejecting verses.

 

[Roger316]

Yes it does mean sinless just as the Father is sinless. I broke down the greek already for this verse and it does not mean complete. See post #499, otherwise you have to ask what does the Father do in order to be "complete" since we are supposed to be like Him. That context is inferring the Father isn't perfect. I said to PennEd, please stop selecting words from the Lexicon when you have to draw the context surrounding the verse. Again, please see post #499

He was sinless from the beginning, but that doesn't mean that with the Holy Spirit, that is something we cannot obtain as I gave scripture. Here is another verse from 1 John:
1 John 3:6



You seriously misunderstand what I'm saying. There are two arguments here.

1) Striving in obedience is a walk you continue to do (pick up your cross). The pursuit of perfection is where salvation lies because you are repenting (turning) from sin. No where did I say you have to cross that finish line in order to be saved. So No, I'm not claiming I'm perfect, I AM striving to get there because I love the Father and I want to do His will, as should EVERYONE who claims to follow Christ.

2) Perfection is a state that everyone can get to with the Holy Spirit. To say this is wrong, is to say scripture is wrong. As you are rejecting verses.

David is correct. The adjective is more akin to "complete" than "sinless". Jesus tells us what he means. An "incomplete" love will only do good things for our friends, but God's love is complete in that he does good things for everyone including his enemies. He not only forgives his friends, he forgives his enemies.

 

[NightTwister]

I find it interesting that it's the judaizers who often break one of the two commandments: "Love your neighbor as yourself." So much for "obedience."

 

[Delvianna]

David is correct. The adjective is more akin to "complete" than "sinless". Jesus tells us what he means. An "incomplete" love will only do good things for our friends, but God's love is complete in that he does good things for everyone including his enemies. He not only forgives his friends, he forgives his enemies.

Greek grammar disagrees with you, but that's okay. You are free to believe what you want since you're now injecting context that isn't there.

 

[Delvianna]

David is correct. The adjective is more akin to "complete" than "sinless". Jesus tells us what he means. An "incomplete" love will only do good things for our friends, but God's love is complete in that he does good things for everyone including his enemies. He not only forgives his friends, he forgives his enemies.

I asked AI to explain the breakdown:

In Matthew 5:48, τέλειος should be translated “perfect,” not “complete,” because the context is moral and comparative, not merely structural or developmental.

The word τέλειος can have several senses depending on context. It can mean complete, mature, full-grown, or perfect. Greek does not force the same English gloss every time. The correct English word has to match what the sentence is actually describing.

In Matthew 5, Jesus is not talking about something being “finished” or “complete” like a task, object, or process. He is talking about righteous conduct and character.

The entire section leading up to verse 48 establishes that:

• do not merely avoid murder — deal with anger
• do not merely avoid adultery — deal with lust
• do not merely technically fulfill oaths — be truthful
• do not merely limit retaliation — respond righteously
• do not merely love your friends — love your enemies

Then Jesus says:

“Therefore, you shall be τέλειοι, as your heavenly Father is τέλειος.”

The word οὖν — “therefore” makes verse 48 the conclusion of everything He just taught.

So the question becomes: what quality is Jesus describing?

He is describing a righteousness that does not stop short of the standard He has just given.

That is why “perfect” fits.

There is another grammatical/contextual reason: Jesus uses the same adjective for both the disciples and God.

ὑμεῖς τέλειοι — you are to be τέλειοι
ὁ πατὴρ... τέλειος — the Father is τέλειος

God is not “complete” because He finished developing. He is not “mature” because He grew into maturity. Jesus is pointing to the Father's perfect character as the standard.

That matters.

If the sentence were about completing a task, completing a process, reaching maturity, or becoming fully developed, “complete” could easily be the better English word.

But that is not what Matthew 5 is discussing.

It is discussing moral righteousness, and the benchmark is:

“as your heavenly Father...”

So “perfect” communicates the meaning more accurately in English.

The simplest way to put it is:

τέλειος can mean “complete” in some contexts, but Matthew 5:48 is not describing completion of a process. It is describing moral character measured against the character of God. Because Jesus makes the Father Himself the standard, “perfect” is the appropriate English translation. “Complete” would only be correct if the context were about something being completed, developed, or brought to an end, which this passage is not.

And this is also why merely saying “the lexicon lists ‘complete’” proves nothing. A lexicon gives possible meanings. The chapter determines which one applies.

 

[Roger316]

Greek grammar disagrees with you, but that's okay. You are free to believe what you want since you're now injecting context that isn't there.

Here is the context of the verse you cited.

Matthew 5:43-48
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

I bolded the text you cited. The previous 5 verses make up the context of the verse.

The core idea Jesus presses in Matthew 5:43–48 is beautifully simple and deeply demanding: to be “perfect” like the Father is perfect, you must love the way the Father loves—not selectively, but generously, indiscriminately, even toward those who oppose you.


Jesus contrasts natural human love with God’s supernatural love. Humans love those who love them back. God loves even those who resist Him.
.
Jesus says to love your enemies and pray for your persecutors. Why? Because this is how God Himself loves.When you love those who oppose you, you reflect the family resemblance — you show you belong to the Father.

Jesus points to creation itself:God gives sunlight and rain — the basic gifts of life — to both the righteous and the wicked.He does not limit His kindness to His friends.His generosity flows toward all.

Loving only those who love you is nothing special.Even tax collectors and Gentiles — groups viewed as outsiders — do that.If your love never rises above reciprocity, it does not yet resemble God’s.

When Jesus says, “Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect,”He is not talking about flawlessness.He is talking about full‑grown love — love that mirrors God’s own character.To be perfect is to love in a way that is whole, complete, and unrestricted.

Jesus teaches that true perfection is God‑like love — love that reaches beyond friends to enemies. God shows kindness to all, even those who oppose Him, and His children must reflect that same generous, boundary‑breaking love.

 

[Roger316]

I asked AI to explain the breakdown:

In Matthew 5:48, τέλειος should be translated “perfect,” not “complete,” because the context is moral and comparative, not merely structural or developmental.

The word τέλειος can have several senses depending on context. It can mean complete, mature, full-grown, or perfect. Greek does not force the same English gloss every time. The correct English word has to match what the sentence is actually describing.

In Matthew 5, Jesus is not talking about something being “finished” or “complete” like a task, object, or process. He is talking about righteous conduct and character.

The entire section leading up to verse 48 establishes that:

• do not merely avoid murder — deal with anger
• do not merely avoid adultery — deal with lust
• do not merely technically fulfill oaths — be truthful
• do not merely limit retaliation — respond righteously
• do not merely love your friends — love your enemies

Then Jesus says:



The word οὖν — “therefore” makes verse 48 the conclusion of everything He just taught.

So the question becomes: what quality is Jesus describing?

He is describing a righteousness that does not stop short of the standard He has just given.

That is why “perfect” fits.

There is another grammatical/contextual reason: Jesus uses the same adjective for both the disciples and God.



God is not “complete” because He finished developing. He is not “mature” because He grew into maturity. Jesus is pointing to the Father's perfect character as the standard.

That matters.

If the sentence were about completing a task, completing a process, reaching maturity, or becoming fully developed, “complete” could easily be the better English word.

But that is not what Matthew 5 is discussing.

It is discussing moral righteousness, and the benchmark is:


So “perfect” communicates the meaning more accurately in English.

The simplest way to put it is:



And this is also why merely saying “the lexicon lists ‘complete’” proves nothing. A lexicon gives possible meanings. The chapter determines which one applies.

in Matthew 5:48 the word translated “perfect” is τέλειος (teleios), not τέλος (telos), though teleios is directly derived from telos. Jesus is using a word built on the idea of goal, end, completion, maturity — not flawlessness.

I disagree with the AI because either complete or perfect is a good translation. But we are not limited to the lexicon in order to understand what Jesus means. As I demonstrated in my previous post, perfect love, which is possible for anyone to do, is enemy love. We can obey Jesus' command to love our enemies whenever we want. The only question is, "What do you want?"