The Rejection of Obedience

[Delvianna]

I've noticed over the decades such a negative reaction to the idea of obedience which tends to stem from the OSAS crowd.

For sake of argument, let's take salvation off the table because I don't want to turn this into a salvation debate. I want the sole focus to be about obedience.

Why, is there such a rejection for obedience? Like, if you bring it up, people just get auto-defensive and start yelling about works. But what happened to not doing something you shouldn't do, because you literally just shouldn't do it?

If God is likened to the aspect of a Father, why do we grow up as kids following our parents, but when it comes to the Father, it's like.. "I don't have to follow the rules."

Throughout scripture from old testament to new, God has been the same. He HATES sin. The message for repentance is prevalent from start to finish in scripture. Hell, the tribulation period is literally due to sin and how abundant it is everywhere. So why the reaction? Why such a distinct defensive response to something that God wants/likes? Why such the overt rejection of it?

 

[timf]

The law for Israel was supposed to have taught them their need for a Savior. Paul writes about the frustration he experienced trying to keep the law using his flesh (Romans chapter seven)

Christians are supposed to abandon the flesh in favor of the Spirit. This is a process of letting go of the selfishness that is at the core of our old nature and grow into the love (selflessness) of Christ. It is this love that is the fulfillment of the law.

By focusing on law and obedience, we focus on self and that elevates the flesh that frustrates our maturity. Christians have so much more available than the flesh, admonitions towards obedience tend to keep Christians as children.

1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

 

[ResidentAlien]

I've noticed over the decades such a negative reaction to the idea of obedience which tends to stem from the OSAS crowd.

For sake of argument, let's take salvation off the table because I don't want to turn this into a salvation debate. I want the sole focus to be about obedience.

Why, is there such a rejection for obedience? Like, if you bring it up, people just get auto-defensive and start yelling about works. But what happened to not doing something you shouldn't do, because you literally just shouldn't do it?

If God is likened to the aspect of a Father, why do we grow up as kids following our parents, but when it comes to the Father, it's like.. "I don't have to follow the rules."

Throughout scripture from old testament to new, God has been the same. He HATES sin. The message for repentance is prevalent from start to finish in scripture. Hell, the tribulation period is literally due to sin and how abundant it is everywhere. So why the reaction? Why such a distinct defensive response to something that God wants/likes? Why such the overt rejection of it?

Maybe some people have just never thought about it. They react in the way they've been taught to react by their denomination. I have no problem differentiating between obedience and works, but not everyone has reached a place where they can do that. There are an astounding number of people who call themselves Christian who don't seek the truth for themselves; they just lap up whatever doctrine or creed that is thrown at them.

 

[BartholomewB]

The law for Israel was supposed to have taught them their need for a Savior. Paul writes about the frustration he experienced trying to keep the law using his flesh (Romans chapter seven)

Christians are supposed to abandon the flesh in favor of the Spirit. This is a process of letting go of the selfishness that is at the core of our old nature and grow into the love (selflessness) of Christ. It is this love that is the fulfillment of the law.

By focusing on law and obedience, we focus on self and that elevates the flesh that frustrates our maturity. Christians have so much more available than the flesh, admonitions towards obedience tend to keep Christians as children.

1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

Quote: “Christians are supposed to abandon the flesh in favor of the Spirit.”

What does “are supposed to” mean? That wording suggests to me that Christians have a duty to obey a certain command ― in other words, to be obedient, to show obedience.

 

[timf]

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Christians have the option of not doing what they should or even could. Christians who feel that maturing in their faith is not that important may end up with an eternal regret.

 

[GWH]

I've noticed over the decades such a negative reaction to the idea of obedience which tends to stem from the OSAS crowd.

For sake of argument, let's take salvation off the table because I don't want to turn this into a salvation debate. I want the sole focus to be about obedience.

Why, is there such a rejection for obedience? Like, if you bring it up, people just get auto-defensive and start yelling about works. But what happened to not doing something you shouldn't do, because you literally just shouldn't do it?

If God is likened to the aspect of a Father, why do we grow up as kids following our parents, but when it comes to the Father, it's like.. "I don't have to follow the rules."

Throughout scripture from old testament to new, God has been the same. He HATES sin. The message for repentance is prevalent from start to finish in scripture. Hell, the tribulation period is literally due to sin and how abundant it is everywhere. So why the reaction? Why such a distinct defensive response to something that God wants/likes? Why such the overt rejection of it?

I think you meant the MFW crowd.
Our view is that obedience of laws is the old/childish/immature/inferior way of describing the relationship between friends.
The NT/mature/Christian way is cooperation/consensus/mutual submission/love of the HS.

 

[DavidLamb]

I've noticed over the decades such a negative reaction to the idea of obedience which tends to stem from the OSAS crowd.

For sake of argument, let's take salvation off the table because I don't want to turn this into a salvation debate. I want the sole focus to be about obedience.

Why, is there such a rejection for obedience? Like, if you bring it up, people just get auto-defensive and start yelling about works. But what happened to not doing something you shouldn't do, because you literally just shouldn't do it?

If God is likened to the aspect of a Father, why do we grow up as kids following our parents, but when it comes to the Father, it's like.. "I don't have to follow the rules."

Throughout scripture from old testament to new, God has been the same. He HATES sin. The message for repentance is prevalent from start to finish in scripture. Hell, the tribulation period is literally due to sin and how abundant it is everywhere. So why the reaction? Why such a distinct defensive response to something that God wants/likes? Why such the overt rejection of it?

I know you said that you don't want to discuss salvation, but I feel that I need to mention it in order to say that I find some people muddle up what is required for a sinner to be saved with what God expects from a sinner who has been saved. Paul makes it clear in Ephesians 2:1-9 that sinners are not saved by their works, but by grace. Then in Ephesians 2:10, he says that sinners are saved for good works. We are not saved by our obedience or our good works, but as saved people, we certainly are to obey God and do good works. Paul himself is a good example of this. Before he was saved, what had he been doing? Breathing out threats against disciples of Jesus. Far from obeying God, he was on his way to round up all the Christians he could find in Damascus, for punishment. Jesus said this was persecuting Him. But immediately God had saved him, he obeyed. It is right and biblical to reject obedience/good works as the means by which we are saved. However, once we have been saved by the work of Jesus Christ on the cross, we are to obey God in our Christian lives.

 

[BartholomewB]

I think you meant the MFW crowd.
Our view is that obedience of laws is the old/childish/immature/inferior way of describing the relationship between friends.
The NT/mature/Christian way is cooperation/consensus/mutual submission/love of the HS.

TMA, DR

 

[2Christ]

I've noticed over the decades such a negative reaction to the idea of obedience which tends to stem from the OSAS crowd.

For sake of argument, let's take salvation off the table because I don't want to turn this into a salvation debate. I want the sole focus to be about obedience.

Why, is there such a rejection for obedience? Like, if you bring it up, people just get auto-defensive and start yelling about works. But what happened to not doing something you shouldn't do, because you literally just shouldn't do it?

If God is likened to the aspect of a Father, why do we grow up as kids following our parents, but when it comes to the Father, it's like.. "I don't have to follow the rules."

Throughout scripture from old testament to new, God has been the same. He HATES sin. The message for repentance is prevalent from start to finish in scripture. Hell, the tribulation period is literally due to sin and how abundant it is everywhere. So why the reaction? Why such a distinct defensive response to something that God wants/likes? Why such the overt rejection of it?

I see the same thing as you did about rejecting obedience, Jesus explained that some people reject obedience because they do not truly want to come into the light. They may claim to know God, but they do not want their actions to be examined or changed.

“And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, lest his works should be reproved. But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God.” (John 3:19–21 ASV)

Jesus also showed that some people honor God with their words while their hearts remain far from Him: “This people honoreth me with their lips; But their heart is far from me. But in vain do they worship me, Teaching as their doctrines the precepts of men.” (Matthew 15:8–9 ASV)

And He asked: And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?” (Luke 6:46 ASV)

Therefore, that defensive reaction against obedience may come when people hear obedience as a threat to a belief they have been taught, or when obedience brings attention to actions they do not want to change. Jesus did not reject obedience. He showed that the person who truly hears Him will also do what He says.

Blessings.

 

[GWH]

I know you said that you don't want to discuss salvation, but I feel that I need to mention it in order to say that I find some people muddle up what is required for a sinner to be saved with what God expects from a sinner who has been saved. Paul makes it clear in Ephesians 2:1-9 that sinners are not saved by their works, but by grace. Then in Ephesians 2:10, he says that sinners are saved for good works. We are not saved by our obedience or our good works, but as saved people, we certainly are to obey God and do good works. Paul himself is a good example of this. Before he was saved, what had he been doing? Breathing out threats against disciples of Jesus. Far from obeying God, he was on his way to round up all the Christians he could find in Damascus, for punishment. Jesus said this was persecuting Him. But immediately God had saved him, he obeyed. It is right and biblical to reject obedience/good works as the means by which we are saved. However, once we have been saved by the work of Jesus Christ on the cross, we are to obey God in our Christian lives.

Christians COOPERATE with the loving HS in their hearts (Rom. 5:5).

 

[GWH]

TMA, DR

Moral Free Will
New Testament
Holy Spirit

 

[passion84god]

Hebrews 5:9

King James Bible
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

 

[DavidLamb]

Christians COOPERATE with the loving HS in their hearts (Rom. 5:5).

Sorry, but I don't see where in Romans 5:5 it says anything about co-operating with the Holy Spirit:

(Rom 5:5 NKJV) Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

It mentions three things: Hope not disappointing, God's love having been poured into our hearts, and the Holy Spirit having been given to us, but nothing there about co-operation. Perhaps you are using a translation that puts the verse differently.

 

[mailmandan]

No genuine Christian would reject authentic obedience in the Christian life. What Christians reject is legalism masked as obedience, which culminates in works salvation and self-righteousness. (Matthew 7:22-23; Luke 18:9; Romans 10:1-4)

 

[Delvianna]

The law for Israel was supposed to have taught them their need for a Savior. Paul writes about the frustration he experienced trying to keep the law using his flesh (Romans chapter seven)

Christians are supposed to abandon the flesh in favor of the Spirit. This is a process of letting go of the selfishness that is at the core of our old nature and grow into the love (selflessness) of Christ. It is this love that is the fulfillment of the law.

By focusing on law and obedience, we focus on self and that elevates the flesh that frustrates our maturity. Christians have so much more available than the flesh, admonitions towards obedience tend to keep Christians as children.

1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

That's contradictory. While I agree with you that growth in love is fulfillment of the law, then I'd have to conclude that the ones who aren't obedient, have no love in them. Doing the law is righteousness (Deut 6:25), but according to you, doing the law focuses on the flesh, so how can that be righteousness? Which is why I say it's contradictory.

 

[Delvianna]

Maybe some people have just never thought about it. They react in the way they've been taught to react by their denomination. I have no problem differentiating between obedience and works, but not everyone has reached a place where they can do that. There are an astounding number of people who call themselves Christian who don't seek the truth for themselves; they just lap up whatever doctrine or creed that is thrown at them.

I absolutely agree with you.

 

[Delvianna]

I know you said that you don't want to discuss salvation, but I feel that I need to mention it in order to say that I find some people muddle up what is required for a sinner to be saved with what God expects from a sinner who has been saved. Paul makes it clear in Ephesians 2:1-9 that sinners are not saved by their works, but by grace. Then in Ephesians 2:10, he says that sinners are saved for good works. We are not saved by our obedience or our good works, but as saved people, we certainly are to obey God and do good works. Paul himself is a good example of this. Before he was saved, what had he been doing? Breathing out threats against disciples of Jesus. Far from obeying God, he was on his way to round up all the Christians he could find in Damascus, for punishment. Jesus said this was persecuting Him. But immediately God had saved him, he obeyed. It is right and biblical to reject obedience/good works as the means by which we are saved. However, once we have been saved by the work of Jesus Christ on the cross, we are to obey God in our Christian lives.

While I disagree with some nuances, I'm not going to get into it because again, I don't want this to devolve into just another salvation debate. But I do agree with you that everyone (as I said in the OP) who is following Christ, should be obedient. But for some reason, any mention of obedience, people just devolve into a salvation debate and it's like their argument is against obedience in general. My dad is actually a great example of this. His quote is, "Jesus died so you can just go live your life." And he's not the only one I've heard this from as over the years its been hundreds of people. And the majority of the time, it's these people who have the worst attitudes.

 

[ResidentAlien]

That's contradictory. While I agree with you that growth in love is fulfillment of the law, then I'd have to conclude that the ones who aren't obedient, have no love in them. Doing the law is righteousness (Deut 6:25), but according to you, doing the law focuses on the flesh, so how can that be righteousness? Which is why I say it's contradictory.

Now I'm a little curious. When you say "obedience," what do you mean? Obedience to what: Christ, the Law, both?

 

[DavidLamb]

While I disagree with some nuances, I'm not going to get into it because again, I don't want this to devolve into just another salvation debate. But I do agree with you that everyone (as I said in the OP) who is following Christ, should be obedient. But for some reason, any mention of obedience, people just devolve into a salvation debate and it's like their argument is against obedience in general. My dad is actually a great example of this. His quote is, "Jesus died so you can just go live your life." And he's not the only one I've heard this from as over the years its been hundreds of people. And the majority of the time, it's these people who have the worst attitudes.

Thanks. I would just briefly assure you that although I don't believe we are saved on the basis of our obedience, I certainly don't say that once we are saved we can just get on with our lives as your Dad said, but that Christians are to obey their Lord and Saviour. Unlike you I don't t think I have ever come across a Christian who says that obedience is totally unnecessary. Thanks again.

 

[Delvianna]

Now I'm a little curious. When you say "obedience," what do you mean? Obedience to what: Christ, the Law, both?

Obedience to Christ is obedience to the Law. They aren't distinct since the law came from God. It's not like the law just suddenly appeared out of no where, so following the law is being obedient to God, but partially due to the additions that Christ added or expounded on while he was here (like the last supper, baptism, sin that can extend to thoughts, etc). But loving the Lord with all your heart, soul and mind, while also loving your neighbor as yourself, would be fulfillment of the law. The law teaches us how to live/love righteously. Just like any parent teaches you as a child what is right/wrong. Same concept.