really ignorant because this is repeated in the book of revelation. read your bible!
The Rejection of Obedience
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The whole bible is prophecy. God made everything in 6 days and rested on the 7th. We've been here 6 days.
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
The last verse of Matthew 16..
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Study the third day, Jesus was here 2 days ago. It's everywhere, even Exodus... My signature is one. This post could go on for a very long time.
12 And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying, Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death:
13 There shall not an hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live: when the trumpet soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount.
14 And Moses went down from the mount unto the people, and sanctified the people; and they washed their clothes.
15 And he said unto the people, Be ready against the third day: come not at your wives.
16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.
17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount.
And from Jesus
32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.
2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.
Exodus 20
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
The last verse of Matthew 16..
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Matthew 17
1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Study the third day, Jesus was here 2 days ago. It's everywhere, even Exodus... My signature is one. This post could go on for a very long time.
Exodus 19
11 And be ready against the third day: for the third day the Lord will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.12 And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying, Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death:
13 There shall not an hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live: when the trumpet soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount.
14 And Moses went down from the mount unto the people, and sanctified the people; and they washed their clothes.
15 And he said unto the people, Be ready against the third day: come not at your wives.
16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.
17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount.
And from Jesus
Luke 13
31 The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee.32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.
John 2
1 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.
2 Peter 3
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Hello! It's the times we're living in, the times foretold in the Bible, the End Times when all the old sureties in society and especially in the church are breaking down.
Salvation is by grace, but those who have found the pearl of great price are all in, here I am and I have come to do your will oh Lord. But here are the times we're living in:
2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
We're living in times when popular authors say all sorts of things to obfuscate the clear teachings of the bible.
God Bless You
While I was referring to the people that are very direct that obedience isn't required there for, it doesn't matter if you do it, you'll still get to heaven (I gave my father as an example but I've heard it from so many people), I do understand the other crowd that feels as though walking in obedience feels as if you're earning salvation, and there for classify it as legalism or having no promises.
But the "gospel" includes what Jesus said, who advocated for obedience (Jesus was perfect in His obedience, hence why He knew no sin). So to reject obedience is rejecting the gospel (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John tend to be what people refer to as "the gospel"). I think what ends up happening is that so many people/denominations alter definitions or have their own personal definition of words so when you say "gospel" someone else is going to have a different view of that same word. Same with a lot of other words people reference.
But as far as no promises, God promised that if you follow him (walking in obedience through his commands, which incorporates a lot of aspects, not just what people call the law, but also faith and trust in Him), you will be saved. So it's not that obedience doesn't have promises, its that there seems to be this continued view point (perpetuated by some protestant denominations) that any form of obedience, automatically equals legalism which automatically shines a negative view on obedience in general. Like it's a bad thing.
Hi there! Amen and I agree. God bless you too! Thanks for sharingHello! It's the times we're living in, the times foretold in the Bible, the End Times when all the old sureties in society and especially in the church are breaking down.
Salvation is by grace, but those who have found the pearl of great price are all in, here I am and I have come to do your will oh Lord. But here are the times we're living in:
2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
We're living in times when popular authors say all sorts of things to obfuscate the clear teachings of the bible.
God Bless You
You are correct. The term "Torah" doesn't exclusively mean "Law". It literally means "instructions." The Torah includes the Law, yes, but it also includes "The Writings" and "The Prophets."
As we read the New Testament, we might run into the phrase "the law and the prophets" or another phrase, "the Law, the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings." These are idiomatic phrases that refer to the Torah.
Well because don't want the truth. But contiune to post truth.
Just for your information Martin was born under his father's last name which was Luder. Martin later changed his name.
Martin Luther changed his last name from "Luder" to "Luther" in the mid-1510s. This change was significant for several reasons:
Scholarly Identity: By adopting the name "Luther," he distanced himself from his peasant roots and aligned himself with the scholarly and reformative movements within the Church
Meaning of the Name: The name "Luther" is thought to be derived from the Latin "Eleutherius," meaning "the free one," which resonated with his beliefs about Christian freedom
Historical Context: The name change had already occurred by the time he posted his Ninety-Five Theses in 1517, indicating its importance in his public identity as a reformer
That's right. Obedience itself is not legalism and Jesus would never say that obedience is legalism. But my definition includes a provision you seem to ignore. Legalism is obedience for the wrong reason or with the wrong attitude and Jesus is critical of both.
This particular danger can be avoided if you take someone's word in context. @mailmandan did not mean to suggest that Christians should not obey Christ. I don't think anyone here is suggesting that we should disobey Christ. Our discussion centers on the question of WHAT did Jesus ACTUALLY command? When Jesus said, "If you love me, you will obey my commandments," some mistakenly conclude that Jesus is addressing the Mosaic Law or specifically The Ten Commandments. But that is NOT what he means by keeping his commandments. His statement is focused on HIS teaching.
Yes. But again, discussions on message boards rarely, if ever, question whether a Christian should obey Jesus' teaching. For instance, Jesus tells us that if we are commanded to carry a load for a mile, then carry it for two miles instead. I have never seen a debate about that. Jesus said that if someone strikes you on one cheek, turn the other cheek to him. I have never seen a debate about whether we should obey that. Understand?
The debate arises when someone insists that Christians are obligated to obey the Commandments that are part of God's covenant with Israel. Keeping the Sabbath Day Holy is a Jewish obligation, not an obligation on others.
Again, we are talking about why someone keeps a commandment and what attitude they adopt while they do it. Don't be like those who flatten the commandments, suggesting that it doesn't matter WHY we do what we do. ONLY thing that matters is that we DO them. That might sound like good advice, but it isn't Biblical.
No, but I think people are confused and forget that while Jesus was alive, He was living under OT law
The sad confusion between 'law keeping' and freedom in Christ crops up again and again and again in this forum. Obviously many do not seem to understand God tore the curtain from the top down and made us His Children in His Son.
Soyeng:
I read of your position that all must keep the Torah. That is a very difficult position because keeping Torah today will get you put in prison, potentially for life.
Torah: A man can have as many wives as he can afford and see as many prostitutes as pleases him, but if his wife commits adultery she must be put to death. Both debt and chattel slavery are endorsed, but a woman enslaved to a man over debt can never go free. If a women who claimed to be raped in a city and nobody heard her cry out, is put to death. A women raped in the country where nobody can hear her cry out is innocent. The ability to keep the Torah was destroyed when the Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD and again permanently in 130 AD. Additionally, there is no evidence that anyone in Judea/Samaria kept the Torah prior to the start of the Synagogue system and the start of the Maccabean was around 250 BC. Prior to that there is no physical evidence of Torah knowledge or Torah practices in the Jewish population. After that time every evidence of Torah keeping widely seen in the Judean population. While there may have been some Torah-lite writings prior to the Babylonian captivity there is no evidence any every day Jew knew anything about it.
pinebeach
That is an interesting perspective. Jesus followers frequently violated the Torah and Jesus defended their actions. The Gospels document several instances where religious leaders, particularly the Pharisees, accused Him of violating Sabbath laws. These accusations often arose from His healing activities and the actions of His disciples, such as picking grain on the Sabbath.
And believing that keeping the Torah is God's requirement for salvation perverts the Gospel and might get you put in hell for heresy.
You're missing the point that Jesus was making. And I never said that the commandments didn't matter, those would be the extremes that you paint that I mentioned earlier. Are you perfect, meaning without sin? Being 'perfect' is what the Law requires for justification. Because Jesus was perfect for us, we are justified by His life when we are placed into Him, the One True Church. Have you ever broken any of the commandments that Jesus listed in Matthew 19? If yes, you are not perfect for justification, and can never be. Therefore you cannot have eternal life based on your merits.
Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."
The prefect that justifies us before God is what Jesus did, since we have all failed already. (Romans 10:1-4) If you have broken one commandment, then you can no longer justify yourself because your life is not perfect. (James 2:10)
Outside of the context of justification, because justification requires perfection for ones whole life, being made perfect/mature is what happens to a person who is already justified. It's an evidence. Remember, being made perfect, practical sanctification, still does not qualify a person to be justified. Since we have all sinned, and all fall short of the glory of God. We, beginning with the Spirit (the source of good), are perfected/matured by that same Spirit to Christlikeness. It's an evidence, not a merit.
Galatians 3:2-3 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?
It's the Spirit that gives life and makes us perfect, not the flesh (Romans 8:9-11). This is for believers who are indwelt and justified already. God gets the glory, not our flesh. It's the fruit of the Spirit, we do not get to merit this, since we have already failed.
The listeners of Jesus in that moment (Mathew 19) knew what He was saying. That's why they replied, "What then can man do?" (meaning, they knew it was impossible). Jesus, replied, "for what is impossible for man is possible for God". Not, what is impossible for man can be possible with God's help. For someone who is a stickler for sticking with what the text says, and not going beyond that, you have sure taken some liberties with that passage. Remember, the man who Jesus asked about the commandments said that He had kept them from his youth. That's a deliberate statement. Not, 'I became this way', rather, 'from the the time when I became accountable before the Law, I always kept these commandments'. When speaking of a state that one reaches as a result of being in Christ and already justified by what Jesus did, that perfection, or maturity does not justify us, nore can it, because the Law requires a lifetime of perfect obedience. What justifies is a lifetime of obedience, no sin, no not one.
You're taking evidences and applying them to justification. Scripture will not allow that. Perfect is used in both those senses in Scripture. In Mathew 19, Jesus is speaking of positional sanctification, or justification. In Galatians 3:2-3, Paul is speaking of practical sanctification.
Can you please quote one person who said that obedience doesn't matter?
That's an evidence statement, not a justification statement.
Again, with the false extremes.
Who is He that loves Him, but he who is justified. (1 Corinthians 1:8)
Try to understand the context of Jesus' words. These are evidences, not merit. You cannot deliver yourself from the penalty of sin. It's impossible. You cannot deliver yourself from the power of sin. It's impossible. You cannot conform yourself to Christlikeness, it's God who does that also. We call that last part the evidences of one who is already justified by what Jesus did. When we see someone being obedient, we see a person who is evidencing something. You can tell a tree by it's fruit. A good tree cannot bare bad fruit (the Holy Spirit), and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit (the flesh). That's why Jesus, in Matthew 19, speaking from His humanity (fully man) said "Why do you call Me good, God alone is good." And elsewhere, speaking from His Deity, said "I am the vine and you are the branches, without Me, you can do nothing [good]". You see, this obedience is God's gift to us, and not a merit that we can claim. The one who obeys God's commands is already justified, born again, and beginning to be conformed to what God already reckons him to be legally in Jesus Christ, perfect.
Dave