The Rejection of Obedience

[Dave123]

Post #220

1 Corinthians 8:3, not 1:8

 

[Roger316]

Roger316
Can you name the commandments of which you write?

A contemporary author, Miguel González de Ponshierro, published a book titled The Commandments of Jesus Christ. In it, he surveys the entire New Testament and gathers fifty distinct commands spoken by Jesus—organized around:

• our relationship with God
• our relationship with fellow believers
• our relationship with the world

This is not a historical doctrine, nor a traditional Christian enumeration. It is a modern attempt to catalog everything Jesus commanded, beyond the Ten Commandments.

Below is a concise, organized list of 50 commands attributed to Jesus by modern compilers. They’re grouped for clarity and phrased in simple, memorable form.

When Jesus says, "Keep my commandments," he is talking about these.

• Repent — “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
• Believe the gospel — Trust the good news of the kingdom.
• Be born again — Enter the kingdom through new birth.
• Follow Me — Leave lesser loyalties behind.
• Abide in Me — Remain in Christ as the true vine.
• Seek first the kingdom — Prioritize God’s reign above all.
• Love God with all your heart — The greatest commandment.
• Worship God in spirit and truth — True worship is internal and sincere.
• Do not lay up treasures on earth — Invest in heaven.
• Do not be anxious — Trust the Father’s care.
• Ask, seek, knock — Persist in prayer.
• Pray in secret — Avoid showy spirituality.
• Pray the Lord’s Prayer — Pattern for kingdom prayer.
• Fast without display — Practice hidden devotion.
• Take up your cross — Embrace sacrificial discipleship.
• Deny yourself — Surrender self-rule.
• Be perfect (complete) in love — Reflect the Father’s character.

​

• Love your neighbor — The second great commandment.
• Love your enemies — Radical kingdom ethic.
• Forgive others — As God forgives you.
• Do unto others — The Golden Rule.
• Do not judge hypocritically — Judge with mercy.
• Reconcile quickly — Leave your gift and make peace.
• Honor marriage — Uphold covenant fidelity.
• Do not lust — Purity of heart.
• Do not swear oaths — Let your “yes” be “yes.”
• Give generously — Freely you have received.
• Invite the poor — Hospitality without repayment.
• Do not despise little ones — Value the vulnerable.
• Serve one another — Greatness through servanthood.
• Wash one another’s feet — Symbol of humble love.
• Be reconciled with your brother — Unity in the body.
• Bless those who curse you — Return good for evil.
• Go the second mile — Surprising generosity.
• Give to those who ask — Open-handed compassion.

​

• Let your light shine — Visible good works.
• Preach the gospel — Announce the kingdom.
• Make disciples — Baptize and teach.
• Baptize believers — Initiation into the kingdom.
• Teach everything I commanded — Full obedience.
• Be salt of the earth — Preserve and influence.
• Pray for laborers — Mission begins with prayer.
• Go into all the world — Global scope.
• Confess Me before men — Public allegiance.
• Take no anxious thought when persecuted — The Spirit will speak.

​

• Do not fear — God knows every sparrow.
• Beware of false prophets — Discern fruit.
• Enter by the narrow gate — Few find it.
• Lay down your life — True life through surrender.
• Do not be angry without cause — Guard the heart.
• Do not resist an evil person — Non-retaliation.
• Beware of covetousness — Life isn’t possessions.
• Be ready for the Son of Man — Watchfulness.
• Keep My commandments — Love expressed in obedience.
• Remember Me in the Lord’s Supper — Covenant remembrance.

Hope these are helpful.

 

[Delvianna]

You are correct. The term "Torah" doesn't exclusively mean "Law". It literally means "instructions." The Torah includes the Law, yes, but it also includes "The Writings" and "The Prophets."

As we read the New Testament, we might run into the phrase "the law and the prophets" or another phrase, "the Law, the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings." These are idiomatic phrases that refer to the Torah.

I'm sorry but that's not entirely correct.

The Torah - Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy. The word "Torah" means instruction/teaching/law. That's why those books are all law based or instruction based.

Nevi'im - (Prophets.) These consist of Joshua, Judges, 1&2 Samuel, 1&2 Kings, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, Malachi, etc.

Ketuvim - (Writings.) These are Psalms, Proverbs, Job, Song of Songs, Ruth, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Daniel, Ezra, etc.

So if you account for anything/everything referencing the Torah, it might not be accurate because the Torah is only towards the first 5 books.

 

[Roger316]

I'm sorry but that's not entirely correct.

The Torah - Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy. The word "Torah" means instruction/teaching/law. That's why those books are all law based or instruction based.

Nevi'im - (Prophets.) These consist of Joshua, Judges, 1&2 Samuel, 1&2 Kings, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, Malachi, etc.

Ketuvim - (Writings.) These are Psalms, Proverbs, Job, Song of Songs, Ruth, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Daniel, Ezra, etc.

So if you account for anything/everything referencing the Torah, it might not be accurate because the Torah is only towards the first 5 books.

Thanks for the correction.

 

[Delvianna]

Thanks for the correction.

Welcome and thank you for having such a good attitude about it

 

[2Christ]

Yup exactly,.
Anyway you have a nasty tone so I am moving on.

i am sorry about my tone but there is urgency but you are right My tone was inappropriate and I apologize.

 

[2Christ]

You're missing the point that Jesus was making. And I never said that the commandments didn't matter, those would be the extremes that you paint that I mentioned earlier. Are you perfect, meaning without sin? Being 'perfect' is what the Law requires for justification. Because Jesus was perfect for us, we are justified by His life when we are placed into Him, the One True Church. Have you ever broken any of the commandments that Jesus listed in Matthew 19? If yes, you are not perfect for justification, and can never be. Therefore you cannot have eternal life based on your merits.

Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

The prefect that justifies us before God is what Jesus did, since we have all failed already. (Romans 10:1-4) If you have broken one commandment, then you can no longer justify yourself because your life is not perfect. (James 2:10)

Outside of the context of justification, because justification requires perfection for ones whole life, being made perfect/mature is what happens to a person who is already justified. It's an evidence. Remember, being made perfect, practical sanctification, still does not qualify a person to be justified. Since we have all sinned, and all fall short of the glory of God. We, beginning with the Spirit (the source of good), are perfected/matured by that same Spirit to Christlikeness. It's an evidence, not a merit.

Galatians 3:2-3 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

It's the Spirit that gives life and makes us perfect, not the flesh (Romans 8:9-11). This is for believers who are indwelt and justified already. God gets the glory, not our flesh. It's the fruit of the Spirit, we do not get to merit this, since we have already failed.

The listeners of Jesus in that moment (Mathew 19) knew what He was saying. That's why they replied, "What then can man do?" (meaning, they knew it was impossible). Jesus, replied, "for what is impossible for man is possible for God". Not, what is impossible for man can be possible with God's help. For someone who is a stickler for sticking with what the text says, and not going beyond that, you have sure taken some liberties with that passage. Remember, the man who Jesus asked about the commandments said that He had kept them from his youth. That's a deliberate statement. Not, 'I became this way', rather, 'from the the time when I became accountable before the Law, I always kept these commandments'. When speaking of a state that one reaches as a result of being in Christ and already justified by what Jesus did, that perfection, or maturity does not justify us, nore can it, because the Law requires a lifetime of perfect obedience. What justifies is a lifetime of obedience, no sin, no not one.

You're taking evidences and applying them to justification. Scripture will not allow that. Perfect is used in both those senses in Scripture. In Mathew 19, Jesus is speaking of positional sanctification, or justification. In Galatians 3:2-3, Paul is speaking of practical sanctification.



Can you please quote one person who said that obedience doesn't matter?



That's an evidence statement, not a justification statement.



Again, with the false extremes.



Who is He that loves Him, but he who is justified. (1 Corinthians 1:8)



Try to understand the context of Jesus' words. These are evidences, not merit. You cannot deliver yourself from the penalty of sin. It's impossible. You cannot deliver yourself from the power of sin. It's impossible. You cannot conform yourself to Christlikeness, it's God who does that also. We call that last part the evidences of one who is already justified by what Jesus did. When we see someone being obedient, we see a person who is evidencing something. You can tell a tree by it's fruit. A good tree cannot bare bad fruit (the Holy Spirit), and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit (the flesh). That's why Jesus, in Matthew 19, speaking from His humanity (fully man) said "Why do you call Me good, God alone is good." And elsewhere, speaking from His Deity, said "I am the vine and you are the branches, without Me, you can do nothing [good]". You see, this obedience is God's gift to us, and not a merit that we can claim. The one who obeys God's commands is already justified, born again, and beginning to be conformed to what God already reckons him to be legally in Jesus Christ, perfect.

Dave

the perfect thing there as you put it is a corruption of scripture, it simply means that he loved money more than GOD himself that is breaking the first commandment but it does not change the fact that Jesus did tell us to Keep the commandments, never mentioned perfectly but people use this twisted argument to get out of it, You cannot Fool GOD. trying to devise scripture against the truth is not a good idea.

 

[Bible_Locket]

Just for your information Martin was born under his father's last name which was Luder. Martin later changed his name.
Martin Luther changed his last name from "Luder" to "Luther" in the mid-1510s. This change was significant for several reasons:

Scholarly Identity: By adopting the name "Luther," he distanced himself from his peasant roots and aligned himself with the scholarly and reformative movements within the Church

Meaning of the Name: The name "Luther" is thought to be derived from the Latin "Eleutherius," meaning "the free one," which resonated with his beliefs about Christian freedom

Historical Context: The name change had already occurred by the time he posted his Ninety-Five Theses in 1517, indicating its importance in his public identity as a reformer

Thank you for reiterating the importance of Martins known last name as a primary member of the Reformation.

 

[Roger316]

Welcome and thank you for having such a good attitude about it

When you love the truth, you love correction.

 

[Delvianna]

When you love the truth, you love correction.

Amen!

 

[Burn1986]

I've noticed over the decades such a negative reaction to the idea of obedience which tends to stem from the OSAS crowd.

For sake of argument, let's take salvation off the table because I don't want to turn this into a salvation debate. I want the sole focus to be about obedience.

Why, is there such a rejection for obedience? Like, if you bring it up, people just get auto-defensive and start yelling about works. But what happened to not doing something you shouldn't do, because you literally just shouldn't do it?

If God is likened to the aspect of a Father, why do we grow up as kids following our parents, but when it comes to the Father, it's like.. "I don't have to follow the rules."

Throughout scripture from old testament to new, God has been the same. He HATES sin. The message for repentance is prevalent from start to finish in scripture. Hell, the tribulation period is literally due to sin and how abundant it is everywhere. So why the reaction? Why such a distinct defensive response to something that God wants/likes? Why such the overt rejection of it?

It’s like obeying the law of gravity. If you obey it, you get the benefits

 

[Blade]

"I've noticed over the decades such a negative reaction to the idea of obedience which tends to stem from the OSAS crowd."

I've noticed over the decades such a negative reaction to the idea of obedience which tends to stem from the OSAS crowd.

For sake of argument, let's take salvation off the table because I don't want to turn this into a salvation debate. I want the sole focus to be about obedience.

Why, is there such a rejection for obedience? Like, if you bring it up, people just get auto-defensive and start yelling about works. But what happened to not doing something you shouldn't do, because you literally just shouldn't do it?

If God is likened to the aspect of a Father, why do we grow up as kids following our parents, but when it comes to the Father, it's like.. "I don't have to follow the rules."

Throughout scripture from old testament to new, God has been the same. He HATES sin. The message for repentance is prevalent from start to finish in scripture. Hell, the tribulation period is literally due to sin and how abundant it is everywhere. So why the reaction? Why such a distinct defensive response to something that God wants/likes? Why such the overt rejection of it?

Hi.. it seems it comes down to how one interprets scripture huh And how one sees "salvation" which you made part of "obedience". You have to decide what HE died for.. what He no longer will ever see. You know OT that sacrifice only covered sin but that Lamb of GOD that sin He died for is gone. My self.. I don't keep repenting if I "sin" hoping He will forgive me. As Paul told them ..those Jewish believers would sin and they go make a sacrifice for that sin. He .. GOD told them.. there is no more sacrifice for that sin.. Christ cannot die again. This many seem not to understand.

He made new man in me.. yet I still have the old man which loves to sin.. its no longer I that sin but sin that is in me. No God forbid I do not have right to freely sin. If I sin.. that sin He already died for.... but in this world sin has a price.. and that price is death. So repent to that nothing is between me and Him. What gets..haha got me in whats believing Yeshua came in the flesh.. died on the cross for the worlds sin was buried rose the 3rd day and is the only way to the Father. Some are secure in this some are not.

Some work to keep this salvation. But this .. what I see read mostly on "Christian" forums form Christains.. how OSAS believe you can freely sin all you want. Something I have never heard of by them. Grace preacher some go after.. something he said.. that I promise you is never posted never talked about from him. He said.. we focus on the good not the sin.. he said.. we don't have the right to freely sin.. we must repent. Yet what he said.. on video.. is never posted. Always some "stay away form super grace..." blah blah blah. I can't speak for all of them but this one.. anyway..

We love our GOD with all our heart all our soul all our mind..we love each other as He loves us. Shall I keep going? That alone is obeying Him is it not? I don't play these games? No offense with OSAS or you can lose your salvation. I can find how I am a citizen of Heaven.. I have been saved so forth so on. We get up dust off keep going.. .. We truly do not seem to understand what happen when the LAMB of GOD... the Son of the living GOD.. gave His life for the world.. for GOD so loved the world.. what matters is are you saved today? Do you know Christ? As for the past.. wont touch it any more.. the future? Not happened yet.. so I only have this moment.. come lord JESUS NOW!

 

[Burn1986]

If you have the Holy Spirit then it’s similar to asking a drunk man to act drunk. If he wasn’t drunk, then he would have to force it. It takes the alcohol for him to obey without even trying (in a sense).

 

[Delvianna]

"I've noticed over the decades such a negative reaction to the idea of obedience which tends to stem from the OSAS crowd."


Hi.. it seems it comes down to how one interprets scripture huh And how one sees "salvation" which you made part of "obedience". You have to decide what HE died for.. what He no longer will ever see. You know OT that sacrifice only covered sin but that Lamb of GOD that sin He died for is gone. My self.. I don't keep repenting if I "sin" hoping He will forgive me. As Paul told them ..those Jewish believers would sin and they go make a sacrifice for that sin. He .. GOD told them.. there is no more sacrifice for that sin.. Christ cannot die again. This many seem not to understand.

He made new man in me.. yet I still have the old man which loves to sin.. its no longer I that sin but sin that is in me. No God forbid I do not have right to freely sin. If I sin.. that sin He already died for.... but in this world sin has a price.. and that price is death. So repent to that nothing is between me and Him. What gets..haha got me in whats believing Yeshua came in the flesh.. died on the cross for the worlds sin was buried rose the 3rd day and is the only way to the Father. Some are secure in this some are not.

Some work to keep this salvation. But this .. what I see read mostly on "Christian" forums form Christains.. how OSAS believe you can freely sin all you want. Something I have never heard of by them. Grace preacher some go after.. something he said.. that I promise you is never posted never talked about from him. He said.. we focus on the good not the sin.. he said.. we don't have the right to freely sin.. we must repent. Yet what he said.. on video.. is never posted. Always some "stay away form super grace..." blah blah blah. I can't speak for all of them but this one.. anyway..

We love our GOD with all our heart all our soul all our mind..we love each other as He loves us. Shall I keep going? That alone is obeying Him is it not? I don't play these games? No offense with OSAS or you can lose your salvation. I can find how I am a citizen of Heaven.. I have been saved so forth so on. We get up dust off keep going.. .. We truly do not seem to understand what happen when the LAMB of GOD... the Son of the living GOD.. gave His life for the world.. for GOD so loved the world.. what matters is are you saved today? Do you know Christ? As for the past.. wont touch it any more.. the future? Not happened yet.. so I only have this moment.. come lord JESUS NOW!

Hey there, thanks for your comment. I understand where you're coming from but I wanted to touch on some things you've mentioned.

I know there is this popular concept that Christ is the "sacrifice" for all sins, so Temple sacrifices aren't needed. Hebrews 10 says the blood of animals don't take away sins. Why do people keep perpetuating that they do? Jesus also wasn't ritualistic sacrificed. He was nailed to a cross outside the city, not in a temple or on an altar. The word "sacrifice" is in the context is, as an example, if someone sacrifices themselves by running to save a child about to be hit by a car, not in a ritualistic sense. He "sacrificed" himself to save us all. There's a lot of nuances to this and how this ties into "fulfillment of the law" and how that works out, but this message would be far too long if I went into everything, so I'm trying to keep it less convoluted.

Think about it this way... if ritual sacrifices had the means to take away sins, then the power would be in the act, not through God or having anything to do with God, correct? It would be attributed like some sort of witchcraft ability (same concept of witchcraft, not calling it witchcraft, just so you understand where I'm coming from.) If sacrifices could take away sins, then humans don't need God. Sacrifice the animal and you're fine. Same concept for ritual sacrifices in pagan practices actually. Do a sacrifice, it, itself, has the ability to do what you want. How does that fit when heaven is literally God's house? That would make the act more powerful than God wouldn't it?

It has always been a relationship with the creator which includes obedience. Jesus even said, "why do you call me Lord Lord and do not do what I say?" Abraham believed God, followed Him, obeyed Him. It has always been God's grace, His forgiveness that fixes the distance between us and Him and what truly saves us. Obeying in some areas and not in others doesn't make you obedient because there is still disobedience. And not repenting after sin is willfully rejecting Him every time. It's keeping that distance between you and God. It's like if you did/said something wrong towards your wife but you tell her "I don't need to repent for what I did/said." Saying you don't need to repent is literally doing that same thing. We are God's wife, are we not? If you love the Lord with all your heart, why wouldn't you try to continually repair the relationship every time you do something against Him?

This goes beyond just salvation requirements, as if you can just check off some boxes and claim you're fine. This is a relationship, a contract, a marriage you willingly entered in and that requires us to upkeep that relationship. How do you think God feels every time you hurt His feelings by sinning and then saying, "I don't need to repent"? And then use Christ's sacrifice, beaten to an inch of his life, gone through horrible pain, just to take the sentence that justice requires, and use it as a means to literally argue and say you don't need to obey which was the very reason Christ was placed on the cross in the first place, because you sin.

 

[Soyeong]

By Keep, do you mean obey perfectly? That's what the Law requires. I do not keep the ten commandments. Only Jesus fulfilled the Law. You can assume worst case scenarios at this point, but as I said, no believer here is advocating to live by the flesh because of grace.

How about you, did Jesus misspeak when He said 'what is impossible for man is possible for God'? You have two choices. It's either you or Jesus who you trust in. One fulfills the Law for you. One puts you under the Law, guaranteeing that you will be judged by it at the great White throne judgment. Here is us under the Law --"then who can be saved"? "What is impossible for man is possible for God". Jesus came to fulfill the Law for us.

We do not earn, or maintain grace, if that were the case, it would not be grace. We evidence it.

D

Thread 'GOOD NEWS FOR LAWBREAKERS'

Jul 25, 2026

GOOD NEWS FOR LAWBREAKERS

Romans 3:19-20 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

There is just no way to wriggle out of it. The facts stare us in the face. None of us can look into the mirror of God's Law and feel good about ourselves. Not if we are honest. Along with everyone else, we are accountable to God. His holy standard makes us...

• Dave123
• Replies: 1
• Forum: Miscellaneous

• 

The Law of God came with instructions for what to do when His children sinned, so it did not require perfect obedience. If we needed to have perfect obedience, then repentance would have no value, but the fact that repentance has value demonstrates that we are not required to have perfect obedience. In Romans 10:5-8, Paul referred to Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to the righteousness that is by faith proclaiming that the Law of God is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a possibility and as a choice, not as the need for perfect obedience.

According to Galatians 5:14, everyone who has loved their neighbor has fulfilled the entire law, so it refers to something that countless people have done and should continue to do in perpetuity, not to Jesus loving our neighbor for us. In Titus 2:11-13, the content of our gift of salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so if Jesus had fulfilled the law for us instead of graciously teaching us to fulfill it, then he would have been removing his gift of salvation from us, so thankfully he did not do that.

Only the doers of the Law of God will be justified (Romans 2:13), so being judged by the law is much preferable than perishing. In Psalm 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before Him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of the Law of God (1 John 3:4), so the reason why our salvation requires us to be a doer of the Law of God has nothing to do with trying to earn it as the result, but rather Jesus graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of it is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it.

 

[Soyeong]

You're missing the point that Jesus was making. And I never said that the commandments didn't matter, those would be the extremes that you paint that I mentioned earlier. Are you perfect, meaning without sin? Being 'perfect' is what the Law requires for justification. Because Jesus was perfect for us, we are justified by His life when we are placed into Him, the One True Church. Have you ever broken any of the commandments that Jesus listed in Matthew 19? If yes, you are not perfect for justification, and can never be. Therefore you cannot have eternal life based on your merits.

We can't earn our righteousness even as the result of having perfect obedience to the Law of God, so that was never the reason for why we are required to obey it. In Romans 3:21-22, it does not say that the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God comes as the result of having sinless obedience, but rather the only way to become righteous that is testified about in the Law and the Prophets is through faith in Christ for all who believe. In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus affirmed that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments, and something that we inherit is a gift, so he was speaking about what is intrinsically required to experience the gift of eternal life, not about the way to be good enough to earn it.

Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

Jesus was speaking about being whole, mature, or complete, not about being sinless.

The prefect that justifies us before God is what Jesus did, since we have all failed already. (Romans 10:1-4)

In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in his way that he and Israel might know Him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the law is to graciously teach us how to know God and Jesus, which is His gift of eternal life (John 17:3).

In Romans 9:30-10:4, it does not say that the reason why they failed to attain righteousness not because they fell short of perfect obedience. Rather, the Israelites had a zeal for God, but it was not based on knowing Him, so they failed to attain righteousness because they misunderstood the goal of the law by pursuing it as though righteousness were earned as the result of their works in order to establish their own instead of pursuing the law as through righteousness were by faith in Christ, for knowing Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith.

If you have broken one commandment, then you can no longer justify yourself because your life is not perfect. (James 2:10)

In James 2:1-11, he was speaking to people who had already sinned, so he was not telling them that they needed to be sinless because that would have already been too late and he was not discouraging the from trying to obey the Law of God, but rather he was encouraging them to repent and obey it more consistently. The fact that James was encouraging them to repent means that he was not saying that they needed to have perfect obedience.

Outside of the context of justification, because justification requires perfection for ones whole life, being made perfect/mature is what happens to a person who is already justified. It's an evidence. Remember, being made perfect, practical sanctification, still does not qualify a person to be justified. Since we have all sinned, and all fall short of the glory of God. We, beginning with the Spirit (the source of good), are perfected/matured by that same Spirit to Christlikeness. It's an evidence, not a merit.

The fact that everyone who will be declared righteous has not had perfect obedience means that it is not a requirement.

Galatians 3:2-3 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

The Law of God is truth (Psalm 119:142), so Paul criticizing the Galatians for turning from the truth should not be interpreting as criticizing the for obeying the Law of God. The fact that the Law of God was never given for the purpose of attaining the Spirit as the result does not mean that we are not required to obey it for the reasons for which it was given.

It's the Spirit that gives life and makes us perfect, not the flesh (Romans 8:9-11). This is for believers who are indwelt and justified already. God gets the glory, not our flesh. It's the fruit of the Spirit, we do not get to merit this, since we have already failed.

The Law of God was given in order to teach us how to embody His character traits and His character traits are the fruits of the Spirit, which is why the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey it (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

Try to understand the context of Jesus' words. These are evidences, not merit. You cannot deliver yourself from the penalty of sin. It's impossible. You cannot deliver yourself from the power of sin. It's impossible. You cannot conform yourself to Christlikeness, it's God who does that also. We call that last part the evidences of one who is already justified by what Jesus did. When we see someone being obedient, we see a person who is evidencing something. You can tell a tree by it's fruit. A good tree cannot bare bad fruit (the Holy Spirit), and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit (the flesh). That's why Jesus, in Matthew 19, speaking from His humanity (fully man) said "Why do you call Me good, God alone is good." And elsewhere, speaking from His Deity, said "I am the vine and you are the branches, without Me, you can do nothing [good]". You see, this obedience is God's gift to us, and not a merit that we can claim. The one who obeys God's commands is already justified, born again, and beginning to be conformed to what God already reckons him to be legally in Jesus Christ, perfect.

Dave

In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession whoa re zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe that Jesus has paid the penalty for our sin is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Law of God (Acts 21:20). The purpose of obeying the Law of God is not for us to conform ourselves to Christlikeness, but rather God graciously teaching us to embody it is the way that He is giving us his gift of conforming us to Christlikeness.

 

[Soyeong]

And believing that keeping the Torah is God's requirement for salvation perverts the Gospel and might get you put in hell for heresy.

The Gospel requires us to obey the Torah (Matthew 4:15-23), so teaching that it not a requirement is what servers the Gospel. Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and it is by the Torah that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so Jesus graciously teaching us to be a doer of the Torah is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it and it would be contradictory for someone to be saved from not being a doer of the Torah while they are not a doer of it.

 

[Soyeong]

Exactly! And He fullfilled it. He made us free.

In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to free us from the Law of God but in order to free us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in the freedom that we have in Christ is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Law of God (Act 21:20) while the way to reject the freedom that we have in Christ would be by returning to the lawlessness that he gave himself to free us from.

Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law in contrast with saying that he came not to abolish it and he warned against relaxing the least part of it, so you should not interpret Jesus fulfilling the law as meaning no, he really came to abolish and relax it. According to Galatians 5:14, anyone who has loved their neighbor has fulfilled the entire law, so it refers to something that countless people have done and should continue to do in perpetuity, not to Jesus freeing us from loving our neighbor. In Galatians 6:2, bearing one another's burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, yet you do not consistently interpret that as freeing us from the Law of Christ.

 

[Soyeong]

I am of the ISAS crowd, If saved always saved. The reason for this negative reaction is because most of Christianity is stuck in romanism till this day. You must perform for your salvation and if you do enough good works you may make it, then again maybe not and maybe you will have to go to purgatory for a while. The pentecostals, methodists and many others aren't romanists but they side with the RCC on the core topic of the reformation which was justification.

I can only speak for myself, there is no rejection of obedience but a concern for the Gospel. If you have no promises but only warnings, you are going to burn yourself out and go full force into the world. I have seen it happen many times.

The content of a gift can be the experience of getting to do something, such as giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari, where the gift intrinsically requires them to do the work of driving it in order to experience driving it, but where doing that work contributes nothing towards earning the opportunity to drive it as the result. In Titus 2:11-13, the content of our gift of salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not extrinsically required to have first done enough of those works in order to earn our salvation as the result, but rather we are intrinsically required to be a doer of those works because God graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of them is part of the content of His gift of salvation. If someone is participating in that training, but then they reject the content of their gift of salvation by becoming a doer of what is ungodly and renouncing doing what is godly, righteous, and good, then they are no longer participating in that training.

 

[GWH]

Amen!

Then you should love this truth:

It is wrong for Messianic Jews to believe obeying the Torah is how they are saved.

The OT/Torah prepared the way for the NT Gospel and sometimes the OT moral laws of Moses overlap/are reaffirmed by the new command of Jesus (love).

However, the issue per NT teaching is that Torahism or obedience of laws is the old/childish/immature/inferior way of describing the relationship between God and believers.

Christianity is the new/mature/superior and thus superseding way per the NT (e.g. Heb. 7:11-10:10) is cooperation/consensus/mutual submission/love of the Holy Spirit.

If Torahists would speak of walking in the Spirit instead of obeying the Torah (applying John 3:30),
they could avoid the charge of seeming to be Pharisaic/legalists and there would be no problem.