The context of Habakkuk 2:4 does not present the righteous living by faith as being an alternative to living in obedience to the Law of God. In Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is the Law of God, and in 1 John 3:4-7, everyone who is a doer of righteous works in obedience to the Law of God is righteous, so the righteous living by faith does not refer to a manner of living that is not in obedience to it. We can do works that embody our faith, such as with James 2:18 saying that he would show his faith through his works and with the examples of faith listed in Hebrews 11 being examples of works, so in regard to our salvation it is not that we need have faith instead of works, but rather we need to do works through faith instead of works in order to earn it as the result. God is trustworthy, therefore His instructions are also trustworthy (Pslam 19:7-11), so the way to trust in God is by obediently trusting in His instructions and it would be contradictory for someone to have faith in God but not in His instructions. In Psalm 119:30, he chose the way of faith by setting the Law of God before him.
The Rejection of Obedience
- Thread starter Delvianna
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Soyeong:
I like your approach. I think the obedience to Mosaic Law is stretched a little far. Not that the intention was for the every evolving Torah law to be obeyed, because there is no evidence that the vast majority of Hebrews who ever lived prior to about 250 BC never knew that corpus of law, nor was there any evidence on the ground than anyone, except the Kings dozens of scribes who spent their time merging and integration various religious traditions into the Torah. My point is that the average Judean from 1,000 BC - 250 BC could not have obeyed the Torah as they had never seen or heard it declared. Another reason Prophets like Isaiah talk about the law which is not the Law as we know it starts with fact that he lived from about 740 BC to 686 BC... There was no literary Hebrew until, at the earliest, about 800 BC. Thus there could by be a literary text like the book of Isaiah written and distributed to anybody in the general public who could even read literary Hebrew much less obey 612 ordanenes. Nearly all of the Hebrew Bible is written in Biblical Hebrew, with much of its present form in the dialect that scholars believe flourished around the 6th century BCE, during the time of the Babylonian captivity. Egypt ruled Canaan from around 1,500 bc until about 1150 bc. Letter written from Canaan in the 14th century were written in cuneiform in the Akkadian language. In the 8th Century BCE (Widespread Epigraphic & Literary Flourish): Epigraphic records grow exponentially (such as the Siloam Inscription), and mainstream academic consensus dates the composition and systemic writing of foundational early biblical texts (such as archaic poetry like the Song of Deborah in Judges 5) to this era.
I like your approach. I think the obedience to Mosaic Law is stretched a little far. Not that the intention was for the every evolving Torah law to be obeyed, because there is no evidence that the vast majority of Hebrews who ever lived prior to about 250 BC never knew that corpus of law, nor was there any evidence on the ground than anyone, except the Kings dozens of scribes who spent their time merging and integration various religious traditions into the Torah. My point is that the average Judean from 1,000 BC - 250 BC could not have obeyed the Torah as they had never seen or heard it declared. Another reason Prophets like Isaiah talk about the law which is not the Law as we know it starts with fact that he lived from about 740 BC to 686 BC... There was no literary Hebrew until, at the earliest, about 800 BC. Thus there could by be a literary text like the book of Isaiah written and distributed to anybody in the general public who could even read literary Hebrew much less obey 612 ordanenes. Nearly all of the Hebrew Bible is written in Biblical Hebrew, with much of its present form in the dialect that scholars believe flourished around the 6th century BCE, during the time of the Babylonian captivity. Egypt ruled Canaan from around 1,500 bc until about 1150 bc. Letter written from Canaan in the 14th century were written in cuneiform in the Akkadian language. In the 8th Century BCE (Widespread Epigraphic & Literary Flourish): Epigraphic records grow exponentially (such as the Siloam Inscription), and mainstream academic consensus dates the composition and systemic writing of foundational early biblical texts (such as archaic poetry like the Song of Deborah in Judges 5) to this era.
Do you affirm or deny that God gave the Torah to Israel through Moses at Sinai?
Good question but there is no basis for it. First, the command to Paul was from the Jerusalem Church. While James was a leader of that church, he was not THE leader as we know that Peter and potentially other apostles and disciples were present during the discussion that resulted in the modified approach to Gentile conversion. I don't accept the Law of Noah as these laws were written down only after literary hebrew was possible i
I believe that is the story in the Hebrew Bible. There was no written language capable of complex texts then (whatever date you care to attach) until the 8th century when "biblical Hebrew" was even possible. The last "scroll of the Torah was not "discovered" until the reign of king Josiah in the late 7th Century. There are no "original" texts of the Torah in any language. The earliest complete Torah text is the Bologna Torah Scroll, dating from approximately 1155 to 1225 CE. This scroll is recognized as the oldest extant complete Torah scroll, containing the full text of the five Books of Moses in Hebrew. That is 2,600+ years between the setting for Moses and our very earliest complete Torah Scroll. We know that later writers of the Hebrew Bible invented their past based on there current reality. Do not ask me to demonstrate it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with believing the text of the Moses story and its subsequent validation of the history of Israel and Judah. It adds no validation and the story, though horribly flawed, is compelling for a people wishing, hoping and praying that it is history not literature.
I was thinking about this today, I think when I heard Ro 8:2 in passing through the morning traffic, where "of life" noticeably struck me with emphasis, "the law of the Spirit of life," which I noticed you've left out of your citation. Anyway, as I was cruising along my thoughts wandering into the often-discussed aspect of God's unchanging character that is oft used in argument for keeping the law. But then, when I considered exactly how much of a gamechanger that God really is.... I mean, I was losing and, all of a sudden, I'm given victory! Right? I was defeated and, lo and behold, I'm more than a conqueror! After all, what does grace and mercy do if it doesn't change the game?! Anyone would have to agree that, if going from death to life isn't a game changer, I don't know what is.
Um news flash. If you want to get to God by your onedience. you better be perfect.
Not even abraham was perfect. But Christs righteousness was imputed to him (romans 4)
You better be perfect.
Be ye perfect as your father in heaven is perfect.
If you want to be under law. Your in serious trouble
I pray you stop filtering the gospel through your own righteounsess and submit to the righteousness of Christ. pain for on the cross.
Or your eternity will not be very happy
Amen
God changes us, we are no longer dogs, eating our vomit. we are sheep being led by the shepperd (christ)
I literally said “woah!” Upon reading your twisted interpretation of Jesus’s Words. I genuinely fear for you.
The ENTIRE point of the exchange with the rich young ruler was to get him to see that Jesus was God, (“why do you call Me good?
No one is good but One, that is God.”)
Jesus was telling him “you’re right to say I’m good, therefore….i’m God!”
He further illustrates that the rich young ruler could NEVER get there by keeping the commandments, because no one can perfectly keep the commandments.
What were the greatest commandments according to Jesus? Love the Lord, and love your neighbor. How could that man be so rich, while seeing the suffering around him, and still perfectly love his neighbors?
Begs the question. Have YOU sold everything you possess and given it to the poor? If not, how are
YOU getting to heaven according to your doctrine?
The Matthew 7 post is a little easier.
Did these guys go before Jesus and say “Lord, Lord! Did we not trust in You, in Your perfect sacrifice for us!?”
No. They brought THEIR works, and put them before Jesus! “ Did WE, not do this, did WE not do that…” Basically the very thing YOU are promoting!
Finally, we KNOW for absolute certainty that these guys were NEVER saved, because Jesus Himself tells us so!
“I NEVER knew you!” Not, I knew you at one time, and you didn’t or did do something and became lost.
HE NEVER KNEW THEM!
Please DONT suffer the same fate! Repent and trust in Jesus alone to save you, AND keep you saved!
Hey b
"The just shall live by faith", I believe that 'faith' in that instance, like Hebrews 12:2, is a metaphor for the life (Acts 3:15) that we receive after we initially believe (Life defined---->Romans 8:9-11, Life received --->Ephesians 1:13-14, Galatians 3:2-3). The question of justification is about the initial belief, before we receive that life. When we are placed into Christ, and He into us (indwelling), we're imputed with the righteousness of God, that's what justifies us, what Jesus did (Romans 10:1-4). The passages that you're quoting are about evidences, not a merit that justifies us. Remember, when we're saved/delivered from the penalty of sin, that's justification, and at that same time we're saved from the power of sin, born again (all the result of being placed into Christ Jesus), that's what starts the process (evidence) of literally being saved/delivered from the sin in our lives, not legally, but practically. Being conformed to Christlikeness. The first two happen the moment that we first trust in Jesus and the Gospel message. The ongoing faith, as I call it, the life, is Spirit powered from within, it's the fruit of the Spirit. It's the evidence of a saved person. A good tree bears good fruit (Spirit), and a bad tree bears bad fruit (flesh).
Initial faith/believe and the ongoing faith, the life, I started a thread on that topic.
If we believe in "God's unchanging Character" then we must accept Him as all the biblical descriptions describe Him.
He can suffer deep regret
He demands mass murders out of anger and commits mass murder out of anger. (when you think about Anger it means when something totally unexpected happens for which you were not expecting. It is logically impossible to be angry if you know in advance exactly what is going to happen. Anger comes from frustration, disappointment and surprise bad behavior.
He commits mass murders just to teach King David a lesson about taking a senses that God had not previously forbidden (he kills 70,00 innocent Hebrews
He speaks out of a donkey's mouth (which may or may not indicate a sense of humor)
He has no sense of humor even though we are "made in God's image"
He sees women as the just property of men
He punishes humans even when they have no idea of His existence
He demands Torah compliance to generations who never knew a Torah even existed
He raises his favorite 2 people directly into heaven so they don't ever die, but demands the Son of God to die a horrible death.
On the other hand, as the Hebrew Bible was written over about 500 yrs by a host of known and unknown men many using reference books we don't have, perhaps we are seeing their perspective a God that acts exactly like a all- powerful human with all the human strengths (power, love, forgiveness, friendship) and all the human weaknesses, anger, rage, murder, preference by sex, regret, deceit and racial preference.
Proto-Hebrew often called Paleo Hebrew was method of writing Hebrew that continued from the very late 8th century BC until the end of Temple Judaism in 70 AD. The term describes the way Hebrew characters are written and to a lesser extent the incorporation of extensive Persian language elements after the Babylonian (Persian speaking) exile. The term does not refer to the dating of the script. There was a family of common script types. The vast majority of the Hebrew bible was written much later than the events it describes. Thus several modern languages share a common pre-courser.
Aramaic: Once widely spoken in the Near East, it influenced Hebrew and was used in parts of the Hebrew Bible.
Arabic: A major Semitic language, it shares many roots and grammatical structures with Hebrew.
Amharic: The official language of Ethiopia, it has Semitic roots and shares some vocabulary with Hebrew.
Tigrinya: Spoken in Eritrea and northern Ethiopia, it is closely related to Amharic and shares features with Hebrew.
Historical Context:
The discussion of ancient books invites us to think through the evolution of writing. Prior to literary writing, our earliest records are of pictograms. For instance, the ancient pictograms found at the city of Göbekli Tepe in southeast Turkey, are thought to be around 12,000 years old. The most ancient writing system that we currently know about evolved in Sumer. The Sumerian civilization was located largely between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers in what the Greeks called Mesopotamia – the land between the rivers. (This was also the location of the biblical “Garden of Eden”) Around 3,300 BC the Sumerians began to use picture symbols written on clay tablets with a small stick called a stylus. They also laid the foundation for modern mathematics. Their writing system was called cuneiform which means “wedge-shaped.” Over time, they began to use symbols for sounds instead of pictures.
Akkadian cuneiform was used in official correspondence between the city-states of Canaan and surrounding kingdoms and their rulers in Egypt. Canaan was a province of Egypt for over 400 years from around 1600BC to the Great Bronze Age collapse until 1,150 BC. These clay tablets, primarily consisting of diplomatic correspondence between the Egyptian administration and its representatives in Canaan and neighboring kingdom leaders, during the Egyptian New Kingdom, spanning a period of no more than thirty years between 1360–1332 BC.
It is generally agreed that Canaan was the location for the founding of modern western writing and its alphabet. In the northern Levant, in today’s Lebanon and Syria, the proto-Canaanite language evolved into Phoenician and later Aramaic. However, the Phoenician alphabet would later evolve into the alphabet used around most of the western world today. Few examples of early Canaanite writing have been found. Hebrew in language and writing evolved in Canaan. In 2017 a comb made of elephant ivory was found in the ancient northern kingdom of Israel at Tel Lachish. In 2021 the tiny written letters on the comb became the earliest written Proto-Canaanite sentence. Dated tentatively to about 1400BC – 1600BC. The sentence contains 17 letters that read: "May this tusk root out the lice of the hair and the beard." The script lacks any vowels as did all Canaanite derived languages. (The Greeks added vowels around 700 BC. Jews added vowels to Hebrew 1,700 years later.)
Only a few other proto-Hebrew inscriptions have been found, and they date from around 1,100 BC. However, there is no archeological evidence that the those living in Canaan had the ability to write literary Hebrew. Textural experts see archaic spellings and letter types indicating there is reason to believe that by 780 BC or so, literary writing was a possibility.
I gave you the answers you're seeking, if you would just go back to the post that you're replying to. That's a great place to start.
Romans 3:19-28 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
You speak with great confidence, but you have rejected the plain words of Jesus in favor of an interpretation that makes His commands unnecessary. That is a dangerous place to stand.
Jesus never said the rich young ruler failed because keeping God's commandments was impossible. When asked, "What good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?" Jesus answered plainly:
"If thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17, ASV)
Those are the words of Jesus Himself. No interpretation can erase them.
Then Jesus exposed the man's idol, his riches, because although he outwardly kept the commandments, his heart loved wealth more than God. Jesus was not abolishing obedience. He was revealing that true obedience comes from the heart.
You also misuse Matthew 7. Jesus did not condemn them because they obeyed. He condemned them because they practiced lawlessness.
"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matthew 7:23, ASV)
Jesus said they were workers of iniquity, that is, lawlessness. They called Him "Lord," performed religious works, but they did not do the Father's will.
Jesus had already told us exactly who enters the Kingdom: "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 7:21, ASV)
And He also said: "If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments." (John 14:15, ASV)
"He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me." (John 14:21, ASV)
"If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love." (John 15:10, ASV)
Your message tells people they need only trust, while Jesus repeatedly calls people to trust Him by following Him, obeying Him, and doing the will of His Father.
This is my warning to you. Be careful that your theology does not cause you to explain away the very words of Christ. On the day of judgment, you will not stand before Paul, a pastor, or a theologian. You will stand before Jesus Christ. It is His words that will judge every person.
"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my sayings, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I spake, the same shall judge him in the last day." (John 12:48, ASV)
Therefore, stop setting interpretations above the clear teaching of the Son of God. Believe in Him, yes, but also believe what He said. For Jesus never separated faith from obedience, nor love from keeping His commandments.
You keep repeating, "You must be perfect," as if Jesus was teaching sinless perfection before anyone can be saved. That is not what Jesus taught.
When Jesus said,
"Ye therefore shall be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." (Matthew 5:48, ASV)
He had just spent the entire chapter explaining what He meant: love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and be merciful as your Father is merciful. Jesus was calling His disciples to mature, wholehearted obedience, not teaching that His commandments are impossible and therefore should not even be kept.
You also present a false choice: either trust Christ or obey Christ. Jesus never separated the two.
Jesus said:
"If thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17, ASV)
"If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments." (John 14:15, ASV)
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 7:21, ASV)
Those are not my words. They are the words of the Son of God.
You accuse me of trusting in my own righteousness. Yet I have never claimed that. My confidence is in Christ. But the same Christ commands those who follow Him to repent, obey, endure, and keep His commandments. Rejecting His commands while claiming to trust Him is not faith. It is self-deception.
You also warn me about eternity. I appreciate the concern, but I urge you to consider Jesus' own warning instead:
"Why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" (Luke 6:46, ASV)
That question is directed to everyone who claims Jesus as Lord while refusing His instructions.
My concern is not whether people say they believe in Jesus. Even the demons believe. My concern is whether they believe Jesus enough to do what He says.
So I leave you with Christ's own words:
"Every one therefore that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them, shall be likened unto a wise man, who built his house upon the rock." (Matthew 7:24, ASV)
The Rock is not merely hearing Jesus. The Rock is hearing Him and doing what He says. I encourage you to stop arguing against Christ's own teachings and let His words speak for themselves, because on the last day it is His words, not our theology, that will judge us.
Actually Jesus did say it..
Matthew 5:48
Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
As did Moses.
Deuteronomy 27:26
‘Cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law by observing them.’ “And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’ ”
as confirmed by Paul and James
Galatians 3:10
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”
James 2:10
For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.
perfection is Gods standard.
W have failed to keep that standard. its why Jesus had to die on the cross.
lol.. So no one can keep the law. and an animal (actually many) had to die
but we do nto have to keep the law perfectly..
ok. keep believing this..
Jesus died because you have failed to keep Gods standard.
for all have sinned and fall short
All included you and me
If you think you can justify yourself. you are in extreme danger.
2 Christ and Dave123:
I think you are arguing points that have little practical difference. Perhaps the difference between Christianity and the Torah seem very different but in many ways, that is not so. When asked, Jesus told us the greatest commandments were love God and to love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus's criticism of the "pious" of his day was that they rejected, love your neighbor as yourself. They wanted religion based on me, me, me. Jesus reminded them and us that it is about others, others and others. No love is perfect, but there are many perfect opposites to love starting with love of my theology, my creed, my personal biblical theology, my church, my bible, my, my my. While one may argue that salvation is by faith alone, but Paul says your faith claims are nothing but noise if you do not love.
Thanks to Luter and Calvin, we have an "excuse." Think right, believe right and you are right. The New Testament is a treatise on the fact that Christianity is not about your highly distilled theology, but your highly converted life. Christianity is the transition to a new life not just a new trust that believing right but living wrong is just fine. That is what the Pharisees thought too. I get the idea from 2Christ that "keeping the Word of God," is a priority. The assumption is that we can proof text ourselfs blind attempting to define what "Keeping the Word of God" requires. It requires a "new heart" a new way of sacrificial love, a new set of priorities and a new awareness of the needs of those we interact with daily. It requires the hardest thing a human can do metaphorically. We must be born again into a new creature, with new priorities, a new heart, a new humility, a new way of living and a new way of seeing or "neighbor.."
It is always constructive and informative of our new life in Christ to read and re-read Matthew 25. Here theology is skin thin and the new person in Christ is exalted.
I think you are arguing points that have little practical difference. Perhaps the difference between Christianity and the Torah seem very different but in many ways, that is not so. When asked, Jesus told us the greatest commandments were love God and to love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus's criticism of the "pious" of his day was that they rejected, love your neighbor as yourself. They wanted religion based on me, me, me. Jesus reminded them and us that it is about others, others and others. No love is perfect, but there are many perfect opposites to love starting with love of my theology, my creed, my personal biblical theology, my church, my bible, my, my my. While one may argue that salvation is by faith alone, but Paul says your faith claims are nothing but noise if you do not love.
Thanks to Luter and Calvin, we have an "excuse." Think right, believe right and you are right. The New Testament is a treatise on the fact that Christianity is not about your highly distilled theology, but your highly converted life. Christianity is the transition to a new life not just a new trust that believing right but living wrong is just fine. That is what the Pharisees thought too. I get the idea from 2Christ that "keeping the Word of God," is a priority. The assumption is that we can proof text ourselfs blind attempting to define what "Keeping the Word of God" requires. It requires a "new heart" a new way of sacrificial love, a new set of priorities and a new awareness of the needs of those we interact with daily. It requires the hardest thing a human can do metaphorically. We must be born again into a new creature, with new priorities, a new heart, a new humility, a new way of living and a new way of seeing or "neighbor.."
It is always constructive and informative of our new life in Christ to read and re-read Matthew 25. Here theology is skin thin and the new person in Christ is exalted.