The resurrection must precedes the rapture

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

????????

The resurrection here IS THE RAPTURE!
The Rapture Event:
1 Corinthians, Chapter 15:
47The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

I think you are both in agreement?

You both cited 1 Corinthians 15: 51-52.


🕊

 

[Psalm1]

Although this is a controversial topic, I have to lift it off my chest. Most objections against the rapture doctrine are what the term "rapture" means, whether it exists in the bible, whether it was newly invented, whether it creates a "third" coming of Christ, but the real fallacy, as I've noticed, lies within its timing in the rapture narrative, which is predominantly taught as pre-trib. Rapture doctrine's one and only valid prooftext is 1 Thess. 4:17 where the term "caught up" is found, and in the previous verse is hope of resurrection.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise FIRST. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. (1 Thess. 4:16-17)

Now here is the kicker. Upon close examination, 4:16 explicitly states that the dead in Christ will rise FIRST. Should we take it literally, as the resurrection must precede the rapture? If so, then the pre-trib timing is busted, because the resurrection takes place AFTER the return of Christ in Rev. 20:4-5.

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the FIRST resurrection. (Rev. 20:4-5)

And when does Christ return? "Immediately AFTER the tribulation".

Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Matt. 24:29-30)

Here the dispensationalists will argue that the rapture is a separate event, if that's the case, it would inevitably and necessarily lead to the conclusion that there will be a separate resurrection also, since the two events are a package deal. So, is it possible to have such a preliminary resurrection? Unfortunately, the answer's NO, because the resurrection in Rev. 20:4-5 is the FIRST one, if you take that literally, then there would be no other resurrection before that.

... This is the FIRST resurrection. (Rev. 20:5)

However, according to Dan. 12:2, there will be a second resurrection, but that's for the unsaved, who will face the white throne judgement.

... and many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt. (Dan. 12:2)

... the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:13-15)

The fatal mistake of pre-trib rapture doctrine is its ignorance of the resurrection, making it an insignificant footnote of the rapture, while in the biblical context it is the opposite, Paul meant to comfort the Thessalonian church who were mourning their dead and worried about their fate, "rapture" in whatever definition is an insignificant footnote of the resurrection. I've made this argument many times, that as the power of the Holy Spirit raised Christ from the grave, so will it raise us from the grave, that's our real blessed hope. I believe that rapture is a cowardly cop-out, it is popular as its promise of skipping death, whereas resurrection is unpopular as it's predicated upon death. By no means do I wish for death or the great tribulation, even Lord Jesus himself asked if this cup of suffering could be passed from him (Matt. 26:42); but when you connect these dots and find that such fate is determined, Lord Jesus predicted the persecution of the church - "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake." (Matt. 24:9) Clinging to a false hope is not an escape.

Read with context...not a workbook of spin and omissions.

The elephant in the room is that Jesus is THE FIRSTFRUITS.
Firstfruits is ALWAYS POINTING to harvest.
The first resurrection is Jesus and those in paradise. " firstfruits"

What you guys fail to realize is that the rapture is the GATHERING OF THE BRIDE.

ONLY the dead in Christ are resurrected at the rapture.

Then those in Christ (alive ones) are instantly gathered.

Mat 24" ones taken" (half the church).
Mat 25 half the church virgins taken, half stays.

IOW...by omitting "firstfruits" , you automatically head down the wrong path.

Removing verses from the table assures you of error.

 

[Psalm1]

????????

The resurrection here IS THE RAPTURE!
The Rapture Event:
1 Corinthians, Chapter 15:
47The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

Yes
A berean has a friend.
It is context and the Spirit of God in taking verses alongside others.

God is a God of purpose.
The rapture is the gathering of the bride.
The biblevends with the bride longing for the groom.

Not some legalistic, bizarre, hoping for torture, a good beating ,and suffering, with Jesus in a wife beater shirt and telling his poor bride she needs purifying.

Uh, my bible says I am purified by His Blood.

 

[stilllearning]

Although this is a controversial topic, I have to lift it off my chest. Most objections against the rapture doctrine are what the term "rapture" means, whether it exists in the bible, whether it was newly invented, whether it creates a "third" coming of Christ, but the real fallacy, as I've noticed, lies within its timing in the rapture narrative, which is predominantly taught as pre-trib. Rapture doctrine's one and only valid prooftext is 1 Thess. 4:17 where the term "caught up" is found, and in the previous verse is hope of resurrection.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise FIRST. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. (1 Thess. 4:16-17)

Now here is the kicker. Upon close examination, 4:16 explicitly states that the dead in Christ will rise FIRST. Should we take it literally, as the resurrection must precede the rapture? If so, then the pre-trib timing is busted, because the resurrection takes place AFTER the return of Christ in Rev. 20:4-5.

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the FIRST resurrection. (Rev. 20:4-5)

And when does Christ return? "Immediately AFTER the tribulation".

Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Matt. 24:29-30)

Here the dispensationalists will argue that the rapture is a separate event, if that's the case, it would inevitably and necessarily lead to the conclusion that there will be a separate resurrection also, since the two events are a package deal. So, is it possible to have such a preliminary resurrection? Unfortunately, the answer's NO, because the resurrection in Rev. 20:4-5 is the FIRST one, if you take that literally, then there would be no other resurrection before that.

... This is the FIRST resurrection. (Rev. 20:5)

However, according to Dan. 12:2, there will be a second resurrection, but that's for the unsaved, who will face the white throne judgement.

... and many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt. (Dan. 12:2)

... the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:13-15)

The fatal mistake of pre-trib rapture doctrine is its ignorance of the resurrection, making it an insignificant footnote of the rapture, while in the biblical context it is the opposite, Paul meant to comfort the Thessalonian church who were mourning their dead and worried about their fate, "rapture" in whatever definition is an insignificant footnote of the resurrection. I've made this argument many times, that as the power of the Holy Spirit raised Christ from the grave, so will it raise us from the grave, that's our real blessed hope. I believe that rapture is a cowardly cop-out, it is popular as its promise of skipping death, whereas resurrection is unpopular as it's predicated upon death. By no means do I wish for death or the great tribulation, even Lord Jesus himself asked if this cup of suffering could be passed from him (Matt. 26:42); but when you connect these dots and find that such fate is determined, Lord Jesus predicted the persecution of the church - "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake." (Matt. 24:9) Clinging to a false hope is not an escape.

When John is instructed to write I believe we can both agree that he was to be precise and exacting.

Verse 19 of chapter one says,

19Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

As well as verse 18-19 of chapter 22 reads,

18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

So I believe we can deduct that John took the command serious and did what he was told to do per Christ.

Chapter 7:9 reads,

9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

So John again is very precise and John writes exactly what he sees. He sees a multitude of all nations.

Chapter 20:4 reads,

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

So we can see that John is writing clearly of what he sees and precisely so. He understands the use of the word all as he used such language in chapter 7:9

In chapter 20 he says he saw the the souls of them which were beheaded. Again precise language and specific as he was commanded to write.

So is John wrong and he is actually seeing all who have died in Christ not just the beheaded but all who came before and they are resurrected all of them?

Or is John only seeing those who were beheaded for Christ and they being resurrected?

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

When John is instructed to write I believe we can both agree that he was to be precise and exacting.

Verse 19 of chapter one says,

19Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

As well as verse 18-19 of chapter reads,

18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

So I believe we can deduct that John took the command serious and did what he was told to do per Christ.

Chapter 7:9 reads,

9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

So John again is very precise and John writes exactly what he sees. He sees a multitude of all nations.

Chapter 20:4 reads,

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

So we can see that John is writing clearly of what he sees and precisely so. He understands the use of the word all as he used such language in chapter 7:9

In chapter 20 he says he saw the the souls of them which were beheaded. Again precise language and specific as he was commanded to write.

So is John wrong and he is actually seeing all who have died in Christ not just the beheaded but all who came before and they are resurrected all of them?

Or is John only seeing those who were beheaded for Christ and they being resurrected?

John is writing about what God only reveals to him. God doesn't tell us everything, you know that.

So there is something important to focus on in what God is trying to tell us about those that are beheaded.


🕊

 

[stilllearning]

John is writing about what God only reveals to him. God doesn't tell us everything, you know that.

So there is something important to focus on in what God is trying to tell us about those that are beheaded.


🕊

First let me say good to see you as I always enjoy interactions with you You are correct I am well aware that God does not show us everything.

However I don't find that to be the case with Revelation as the purpose is to reveal.

Chapter one verse 1 reads,

1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

First let me say good to see you as I always enjoy interactions with you You are correct I am well aware that God does not show us everything.

However I don't find that to be the case with Revelation as the purpose is to reveal.

Chapter one verse 1 reads,

1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Yes? God still didn't reveal everything, just the things He wants us to focus on.

What is that you want God to talk about? It never hurts to ask Him if He hasn't mentioned it. If He doesn’t want to reveal more of what it is you're asking about, trust God concerning it.


🕊

 

[stilllearning]

Yes? God still didn't reveal everything, just the things He wants us to focus on.

What is that you want God to talk about? It never hurts to ask Him if He hasn't mentioned it. If He doesn’t want to reveal more of what it is you're asking about, trust God concerning it.


🕊

My apologies I figured that by my question I was pointing to the point I am trying to make. In a nutshell I don't believe that we can take other verses about the resurrection then use Rev 20 as the tie in to what we believe about the resurrection. As I find the verse is very precise and is so because Christ commanded so.

Would not be any different than when God commanded precision for the building of the Tabernacle. They did not read into any of the measurement's or such.

Those resurrected in Rev 20 are distinct and precisely defined those who are beheaded for their witness of Christ, who did not worship the beast or his image.

I believe when we do link other resurrection verses with Rev 20 we are reading those other verses into that passage as the verse says what it says and does so precisely. Such as saying that all saints are resurrected at that point. So that is the point I am getting at if I make sense.

 

[Lovette]

????????

The resurrection here IS THE RAPTURE!
The Rapture Event:
1 Corinthians, Chapter 15:
47The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

That's a good one, conflating the resurrection with the rapture. Nonetheless, both are still post trib.

 

[Lovette]

Read with context...not a workbook of spin and omissions.

The elephant in the room is that Jesus is THE FIRSTFRUITS.
Firstfruits is ALWAYS POINTING to harvest.
The first resurrection is Jesus and those in paradise. " firstfruits"

What you guys fail to realize is that the rapture is the GATHERING OF THE BRIDE.

ONLY the dead in Christ are resurrected at the rapture.

Then those in Christ (alive ones) are instantly gathered.

Mat 24" ones taken" (half the church).
Mat 25 half the church virgins taken, half stays.

IOW...by omitting "firstfruits" , you automatically head down the wrong path.

Removing verses from the table assures you of error.

Is it so? "Firstfruits" are positively identified as the 144,000 with zero wiggle room. Unless the whole church of Christ consists of only 288,000 men out of 8 billion, you seem like the one down the wrong path.

“Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed ... (Rev. 7:3-4)

Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads .... These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God. (Rev. 14:1-5)

 

[Lovette]

When John is instructed to write I believe we can both agree that he was to be precise and exacting.

Verse 19 of chapter one says,

19Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

As well as verse 18-19 of chapter 22 reads,

18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

So I believe we can deduct that John took the command serious and did what he was told to do per Christ.

Chapter 7:9 reads,

9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

So John again is very precise and John writes exactly what he sees. He sees a multitude of all nations.

Chapter 20:4 reads,

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

So we can see that John is writing clearly of what he sees and precisely so. He understands the use of the word all as he used such language in chapter 7:9

In chapter 20 he says he saw the the souls of them which were beheaded. Again precise language and specific as he was commanded to write.

So is John wrong and he is actually seeing all who have died in Christ not just the beheaded but all who came before and they are resurrected all of them?

Or is John only seeing those who were beheaded for Christ and they being resurrected?

If you count on John's "precise and exacting" use of language, then that multitude also went through the great tribulation.

Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?” And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Rev. 7:13-14)

 

[stilllearning]

If you count on John's "precise and exacting" use of language, then that multitude also went through the great tribulation.

Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?” And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Rev. 7:13-14)

That is what it says. So yeah I believe it is self explanatory. So not sure of your question?

Looking at study aids it says the Greek for your highlighted.

"5. of the conditon or state out of which one comes or is brought: σῴζειν ἐκ θανάτου Hebrews 5:7; James 5:20; ἔρχεσθαι ἐκ (Lachmann ἀπό) θλίψεως, Revelation 7:14;"

When we look at the Greek ἔρχεσθαι ἐκ θλίψεως

Using AI and it's related sources it gives this for that phrase.

"Coming out of tribulation​

The Greek phrase ἔρχεσθαι ἐκ θλίψεως translates literally to "to come out of tribulation" in English.

• ἔρχεσθαι (erchesthai) means "to come" or "to arrive".
• ἐκ (ek) means "out of" or "from".
• θλίψεως (thlipseōs) is the genitive form of θλίψις, meaning "tribulation", "affliction", or "distress".

This phrase appears in Revelation 7:14, where it describes those who have come out of the great tribulation:

"And I said to him, 'Sir, you know.' And he said to me, 'These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.'"

The definite article τῆς μεγάλης ("the great") is attached to θλίψεως, so the full phrase is "out of the great tribulation", emphasizing a specific, intense period of suffering."

Looking at another study aid of the Greek it says the same. So it reads just as it is written so again not sure of the question.

3588 [e]
hoi
οἱ
the [ones]
Art-NMP

2064 [e]
erchomenoi
ἐρχόμενοι
coming
V-PPM/P-NMP

1537 [e]
ek
ἐκ
out of
Prep

3588 [e]
tēs
τῆς
the
Art-GFS

2347 [e]
thlipseōs
θλίψεως
tribulation
N-GFS

3588 [e]
tēs
τῆς
-
Art-GFS

3173 [e]
megalēs
μεγάλης ,
great
Adj-GFS

​

 

[Lovette]

That is what it says. So yeah I believe it is self explanatory. So not sure of your question?

I didn't ask any, just showing you that the resurrection and the rapture must be post trib, you can't come "out of the great tribulation" when the tribulation has yet to start.

 

[stilllearning]

I didn't ask any, just showing you that the resurrection and the rapture must be post trib, you can't come "out of the great tribulation" when the tribulation has yet to start.

Well that will explain why I found no question........LOL

Which I agree the saints who have come out of the tribulation the saints in Rev 20 are going to be resurrected. However, that is still not all saints and you are reading all saints into that passage when that is not what it says.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Well that will explain why I found no question........LOL

Which I agree the saints who have come out of the tribulation the saints in Rev 20 are going to be resurrected. However, that is still not all saints and you are reading all saints into that passage when that is not what it says.

Yes that passage just talks about the saints that came out of the great tribulation. It must be pretty horrific if God gave them special notice in the Bible.

Still, when these saints that died are mentioned it also means the rest of the righteous dead were resurrected too. They're not specially mentioned for whatever reason. For that, you would have to ask God about that. He'll probably tell you after all this ends, either in the Millennial age or the age after that.


🕊

 

[stilllearning]

Yes that passage just talks about the saints that came out of the great tribulation. It must be pretty horrific if God gave them special notice in the Bible.

Still, when these saints that died are mentioned it also means the rest of the righteous dead were resurrected too. They're not specially mentioned for whatever reason. For that, you would have to ask God about that. He'll probably tell you after all this ends, either in the Millennial age or the age after that.


🕊

Not at all. John is told to write the things he sees, the things that are, and what will be hereafter.

The messages to the churches is what is now, the things that are.

Revelation 4:1-2
1After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

We can see where the hereafter the coming future starts and why only those who died as martyrs are mentioned in Rev 20.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Not at all. John is told to write the things he sees, the things that are, and what will be hereafter.

The messages to the churches is what is now, the things that are.

Revelation 4:1-2
1After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

We can see where the hereafter the coming future starts and why only those who died as martyrs are mentioned in Rev 20.

*Shrug* Okay!


🕊

 

[stilllearning]

*Shrug* Okay!


🕊

It will be lengthy why I test to see if anyone may want to hear. However, not to change your mind on your beliefs about the rapture or the coming. I can show in Revelations the messages to the churches in them is referred to as the pretrib rapture. The crown of life given is the same life given in John 5:25

25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

So that is why their is a distinction and it does not include all saints prior and means what it says in Rev 20.

So if you are ever curious again not to change your mind but to hear a different perspective of someone who came to a conclusion of pretrib vs post trib.

I can share how I came to hold a opposite view. Again though I want to be clear I in no way am trying to change your mind just show a different reasoning.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

It will be lengthy why I test to see if anyone may want to hear. However, not to change your mind on your beliefs about the rapture or the coming. I can show in Revelations the messages to the churches in them is referred to as the pretrib rapture. The crown of life given is the same life given in John 5:25

25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

So that is why their is a distinction and it does not include all saints prior and means what it says in Rev 20.

So if you are ever curious again not to change your mind but to hear a different perspective of someone who came to a conclusion of pretrib vs post trib.

I can share how I came to hold a opposite view. Again though I want to be clear I in no way am trying to change your mind just show a different reasoning.

No, Jesus already plainly said He's coming to collect us post-trib.

John 6:39 "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of those He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day."

Anything else is just smoke mirrors. I mean look at how long your post is AND you said at the end that you can write ANOTHER about how you came to that view?

God's messages are simple in clear. We make it burdensome and long when we don't want to believe and follow what He says.

Please just obey Jesus on this and endure in Him as one who belongs to Him. You'll not regret preparing in Christ!


🕊

 

[Psalm1]

Is it so? "Firstfruits" are positively identified as the 144,000 with zero wiggle room. Unless the whole church of Christ consists of only 288,000 men out of 8 billion, you seem like the one down the wrong path.

“Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed ... (Rev. 7:3-4)

Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads .... These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God. (Rev. 14:1-5)

Again
Do a study in firstfruits.
You have no idea what you are talking about.

Your teachers are so lacking.
Get in touch with them and fire them.